Digital8 vs DV

[aaberg]

Need all your help. My 10 year old Hi8 camcorder doesn't work any more (turns off after 2-5 minutes use each time - it's not the batteries) and I have to buy a new camcorder.

I prefer a Digital8 (Sony DCRTRV460E) make it possible to play my old tapes. But some dealers says I should go for a DV instead - says the picture are much better on a DV. Other sales says a Digital8 are a better choise...

This is my question: What is best choise - Digital8 or DV and why?

[proxyx99]

The difference is the medium (bigger vs. smaller tape) that allows to shrink miniDV cams compared to D8. If the cam size is not an issue then go with D8, it is feature rich and quite versatile (and cheaper). Check camcorderinfo.com and dvspot.com for some guidance. On the other hand miniDV is mainsteam right now. Considering its small size and weight one must say that this allows you to carry the cam anytime and anywhere, and isn't it really what making home movies is all about?
I own miniDV and woudn't trade it for any other format. But that's just me...

[vitualis]

Both D8 and miniDV use the same DV format for recording the video so assuming equivalence in optics and sensor technology, the quality is the same.

The main difference from how I see it is the size of the device. A D8 device has to be large enough to accomodate 8mm tape which usually means that it is much bigger than a miniDV camcorder.

Of course, this means that D8 camcorders are less "sexy" but often have better features and are cheaper...

Regards.

[gshelley61]

I bought a new Canon MiniDV camcorder a few years ago and then picked up a used Sony Digital8 for a great bargain on eBay so I could play back my old analog 8mm home video tapes and recycle (re-use) tapes that were blank or had nothing of value on them. I like having both formats on hand.

The MiniDV is quite a bit smaller, so for traveling and carrying around it is better. The Sony is larger, but easier to handle because it is bigger.

[Richard_G]

I use both and there is nothing to choose between quality. The format of the data is exactly the same, it is only the storage medium that is different. Even then it is only the plastic box the tape lives in that varies. I bought a Sony Digital 8 (a DCR-TR8000e) so I could play back, and output through Firewire as DV, my older 8mm and Hi-8 tapes. The model I bought didn't have DV or analogue in enabled but I bought a widget to allow this. I now use it as a camcorder, an analogue video recorder, a DV recorder to archive edited projects back to D8 tape and an analogue to digital pass through device to allow me to transfer VHS and other analogue sources to the computer as DV. The Mini DV camcorder is used purely as a camcorder! In fact, stuff shot on the mini DV usually ends up being put on D8 tape once I've edited out the rubbish!

The 460e will do everything mine does as standard and appears to be the current top of the range job so I would say go for that. D8 camcorders are slightly bigger to handle the larger tapes, but you will still have backward compatibility with your existing tapes.

[Hawseman]

The TRV460 is great with old 8mm....especially if you plan to archive you're old tapes onto optical dvd media. Connected via firewire, the camera will do the analog-digital conversion for you. Very easy and never a dropped frame.

I toiled over miniDV for sometime, but am very happy with my choice to go digital8.

[takeshi]

The format of the data is exactly the same, it is only the storage medium that is different.

Assuming that the optics and CCD's are similar (likely they are based on what the OP is saying), this is true.

[proxyx99]

Some D8 cams have a larger CCD (1/3 or 1/4 inch), bigger, brighter lens (more zoom power as well) and that allows for better low light performance then most of the miniDV's. Featurewise these are very attractive cams and if size is not crucial a real steal in terms of price/functionality ratio.

[trevlac]

But some dealers says I should go for a DV instead - says the picture are much better on a DV.

Those guys are talking out their arse.

For the price, D8 is much better than DV. After a certain point, bigger (not smaller) is better. This is because a small cam is impossible to hold still and difficult to change settings. No doubt there is a fun factor in a small cam, but if all of your footage is like this, better get some Dramamine.

[lenti_75]

After a certain point, bigger (not smaller) is better.

that means that VHS is better ???

dude, minidv cams these days, have better resolution, more pixels, and more low light performance. I had a D8 once, is not better that my Canon elura 50, which is one of the smallest cams.....

I would go for miniDv, the price is not that much higher.

[abm100]

As long as you need to play back your 8mm/Hi8 tapes, I would get a D8 camcorder. You might want to follow someone's suggestion to get a used/cheap one.

Sony isn't putting their best stuff in the D8 camcorders anymore - that's why people are saying MiniDV is better. Those cameras potentially have bigger CCD's, better lenses, etc. D8 is not inherently inferior to MiniDV - it's just a different tape size, but to re-iterate, better featured cameras are MiniDV (except for the low end ones). If your budget only allows for a low end MiniDV, you'll be just as happy with the quality of the D8. Sony's SteadyShot technology is better than most other EIS systems found in other manufacturers camcorders.

[gshelley61]

Yes, the best quality consumer cameras available are all MiniDV format with larger (even 3) CCD's, etc. The Sony Digital8 cameras do not sell as well and don't have some of the technology that is in the upper-end MiniDV units, but are convenient to have if you have lots of analog 8mm or Hi8 tapes in your collection.

That's why I suggested you invest in a new MiniDV camcorder and look for a deal on a used Digital8 with analog 8mm/Hi8 playback capability. Plus, it's nice to have a second digital camcorder around.

[indolikaa]

I use them both. I prefer Digital8.

[gshelley61]

When I go to grab a camcorder to take some footage of my kids around the house or in the yard, I usually pick up the Digital8. I like the feel and control of the bigger camera.

[indolikaa]

When I go to grab a camcorder to take some footage of my kids around the house or in the yard, I usually pick up the Digital8. I like the feel and control of the bigger camera.

Me, too.

I have some reservations about a tape transport that small. I am a veteran of the DAT days, and those transports are about the same size and complexity. Especially the one in the Sony DTC-700. What a convoluted mess!

My Panasonic DV sometimes won't take the tape. It's very finicky about making sure the tape is in the transport JUST pefectly.

[racer-x]

I've never used Digital8, so I can't comment on the quality. I've used Mini-DV for over 4 years now and am happy with the results. I've read somewhere that Digital8 has 400 lines of resolution and the average Mini-dv has 500 lines of resolution. My camera actually has 525 lines of resolution, but it is a 3 CCD model.

The way I figure it, there is a reason that Mini-dv out sells Digital8. People aren't stupid, they buy what works best.

[Jester700]

I've never used Digital8, so I can't comment on the quality. I've used Mini-DV for over 4 years now and am happy with the results. I've read somewhere that Digital8 has 400 lines of resolution and the average Mini-dv has 500 lines of resolution. My camera actually has 525 lines of resolution, but it is a 3 CCD model.

The way I figure it, there is a reason that Mini-dv out sells Digital8. People aren't stupid, they buy what works best.

The resolution on the formats is equal - it's the same signal. But on average DV cams could be said to be better, because there ARE no real high end D8s - they were always a low-mid consumer cam. That's not to say a DV of the same price is any better. It's all in the optics.

As for the "stupid" thing, I disagree - people have bought all kinds of stuff based on things other than superior quality. How about VHS over Beta, and the success of Bose?

[indolikaa]

As for the "stupid" thing, I disagree - people have bought all kinds of stuff based on things other than superior quality. How about VHS over Beta?

Amen.

Sony Beta, Apple Macintosh, the list goes on and on...

[racer-x]

I won't argue with that reasoning.

Here is a quote from DV Primer.pdf on Digital8 vs Mini-dv DV25:

Digital8:A prosumer-targeted variation on the DV25 theme is called Digital8. It offers the same data rate and color sampling as DV25,but a slightly lower resolution.The Digital8 camcorder is designed to accommodate those customers who want to move up to digital video, but who might have a significant investment in analog Hi-8 movies.The Digital8 camcorder records digitally,but it can also play back analog Hi-8 tapes.

[gshelley61]

Digtal8, MiniDV, DV, DVCam and DVPro all use the same recording format (DV25) and resolution... 720x480 NTSC with 4:1:1 color sampling (5:1 DVC-format DCT, intra-frame; 25 Mbps video data rate). The difference is all in the optics and circuitry. High end professional video cameras have 3 large high resolution CCD's that oversample the image. They also have $20,000 lenses. And very sophisticated, low-noise electronics.

Small consumer camcorders have inexpensive lenses, small CCD's and compact digital circuitry. But they don't cost $35,000 either.

Sony Digital8 cameras are marketed as mid-level consumer quality products because the digital 8mm tape format is not as popular with the public as MiniDV. This is because the MiniDV camcorders are smaller and sexier. So, there are many more MiniDV camcorders types available, from real cheap ones all the way up to 3 CCD "prosumer" models that are $3,000-$5,000. Image quality among different MiniDV camcorders can vary quite a bit.

DV25 format comparison
http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-tech.html#Details

[trevlac]

After a certain point, bigger (not smaller) is better.

that means that VHS is better ???

Well obviously you don't know squat.... VHS is a different format. miniDV and D8 are the same format.

dude, minidv cams these days, have better resolution, more pixels, and more low light performance. I had a D8 once, is not better that my Canon elura 50, which is one of the smallest cams.....

So since they are the same format, and you are not comparing other factors in the cam, like the lense .... they have the exact same resolution, the exact same number of pixels on tape ... Pixels due to CCDs are hard to compare without specifying the cam. Low light performance is a cam to cam thing. There is an older Sony D8 (i forget the model - search the forum) that goes down to 1 lux in color. No doubt your Canon goes grey well before that.

So before you call me dude .... you should know your shit. After all .... I may be a duddet.

PS: An older D8 may be better than the newer ones, as some here seem to be saying.

[ofbarea]

So since they are the same format, and you are not comparing other factors in the cam, like the lense .... they have the exact same resolution, the exact same number of pixels on tape ... Pixels due to CCDs are hard to compare without specifying the cam. Low light performance is a cam to cam thing. There is an older Sony D8 (i forget the model - search the forum) that goes down to 1 lux in color. No doubt your Canon goes grey well before that.

That was the Sony DCR-TRV140.

[proxyx99]

D8 was a concept introduced by Sony in order to make digital cams more affordable. If you have well developed supplier chain, years of experience and price point pushed very low for a Hi8 tape transport unit then it is obvious why Sony did what they did. Even though I don't own D8 I have to say that most of D8 cams offered (until recently) were highly regarded for quality and reliability. Since this technology is no longer main stream no wonder that you won't see all latest gimmicks incorporated in them. D8 was supposed to allow to easily transition from analog to digital without making you buy/keep and old cam (backwards compatibility).
Today's market is miniDV driven so all the development is directed towards this format. Still, features offered by the best D8 cams are very impressive (good optics, excel. low light perf., superb stabilization, sturdy cassette system, all miniDV tricks, DA pass-through, lightweight and what else do you need...?) on par with most miniDV's.

I personally don't like the size as well as the way you hold the cam and that is why I bought miniDV which is vertical, closer to the regular grip/handle concept. But what is great for me may be crap to someone else. D8 or miniDV question boils down to size/weight issue plus how much money you want to put in your cam. Recently the choice has become more difficult as the price argument is getting less relevant due to substantial drop in mid-level miniDV cams prices. No question the future belongs to miniDV but I would not dismiss D8. By all means this is a great format and proven to be a spectacular winner for Sony.

I agree with the notion that recent D8 are not as attractive as older ones and if I was in a market for a D8 I'd probably start with EBay or alike (discounted, 1-2 year old models, even used) for price/selection reasons.

Some suggested that small miniDV's are shaky compared to larger heavier cams. Nothing farther from the truth. I always found a wrap-around grip uncomfortable, tiring and unnatural. When compared with miniDV footage shot by me (or especially by my wife!) without stabilizer you would notice superb, tripod-like stability that I never got with an older Hi8. Vertical grip is much more stable and very comfortable. The only drawback is you need to experiment a while with ... how to find a compromise between most comfortable hand position and buttons layout. Once you adjust to that (takes a day) you would never go back to an "older" grip style).
The reason for improved stability is that older grip forces elbow away from the body and vertical grip allows (encourages) resting the elbow on your trunk. Makes a world of difference. With Sony's superb (and unmatched by other makers) image stabilization this is a winning combo.

[ofbarea]

Besides most Sony Digital8 cams (at least older models) have a unique feature; when converting analog to DV they also keep close captions.

[lenti_75]

After a certain point, bigger (not smaller) is better.

that means that VHS is better ???

Well obviously you don't know squat.... VHS is a different format. miniDV and D8 are the same format.

DUDE...you SUCK.....that was a joke. Looks like you don't know a SHIT....

miniDV has a higher resolution, about 680000, compared to a 480 for a D8

DUDE.... or DUDE...read more SHIT

[ofbarea]

DUDE...you SUCK.....that was a joke. Looks like you don't know a SHIT....

miniDV has a higher resolution, about 680000, compared to a 480 for a D8

DUDE.... or DUDE...read more SHIT

Digital8 and miniDV both record video at 720x480.

[trevlac]

DUDE...you SUCK.....that was a joke. Looks like you don't know a SHIT....

miniDV has a higher resolution, about 680000, compared to a 480 for a D8

DUDE.... or DUDE...read more SHIT

Digital8 and miniDV both record video at 720x480.

Looks like we all now know shit ....

Shit == advice from lenti_75

[Ensign]

I am too thinking of getting a digital 8 camcorder because I am so invested in the 8mm format.

But, I have 2 questions that not even downloading a manual for a SONY digital 8 can't seem to answer

I hope somebody here can.

1: Can these Digital 8 camcorders record in "regular" and/or Hi8 format? Or only in the Digital format?

2: What happens if you use a "regular" 8mm instead of a Hi8 tape?

The manual says nothing about the first question, and for the second one. The manual only states that "recording made with standard 8 tapes should only be played in the camcorder that made it." Not even if the second camcorder is the same make and model

[gshelley61]

I am too thinking of getting a digital 8 camcorder because I am so invested in the 8mm format.

But, I have 2 questions that not even downloading a manual for a SONY digital 8 can't seem to answer

I hope somebody here can.

1: Can these Digital 8 camcorders record in "regular" and/or Hi8 format? Or only in the Digital format?

2: What happens if you use a "regular" 8mm instead of a Hi8 tape?

The manual says nothing about the first question, and for the second one. The manual only states that "recording made with standard 8 tapes should only be played in the camcorder that made it." Not even if the second camcorder is the same make and model

Digital8 camcorders record only in the digital video format. Most have a feature to play back standard 8mm and Hi8 tapes (except the entry-level models). You can use regular 8mm and Hi8 tapes to record. The higher quality Hi8 tapes seem to work a little better, though you can't tell from the picture (it is all just a digital stream being recorded, after all).

[edDV]

I am too thinking of getting a digital 8 camcorder because I am so invested in the 8mm format.

But, I have 2 questions that not even downloading a manual for a SONY digital 8 can't seem to answer

I hope somebody here can.

1: Can these Digital 8 camcorders record in "regular" and/or Hi8 format? Or only in the Digital format?

2: What happens if you use a "regular" 8mm instead of a Hi8 tape?

The manual says nothing about the first question, and for the second one. The manual only states that "recording made with standard 8 tapes should only be played in the camcorder that made it." Not even if the second camcorder is the same make and model

Digital8 camcorders record only in the digital video format. Most have a feature to play back standard 8mm and Hi8 tapes (except the entry-level models). You can use regular 8mm and Hi8 tapes to record. The higher quality Hi8 tapes seem to work a little better, though you can't tell from the picture (it is all just a digital stream being recorded, after all).

I've had a DCR-TRV103 since the first month the Digital8 format was introduced (list price $999). Its been an excellent camcorder and has the equivalent of 150,000 miles now from lots of field shooting and many hours of dubs in both Hi8 (playback) and Digital8 formats. I've used a variety of tapes from the cheapest $2 8mm to old and new Hi8 and have had no interchange problems with new or old tapes in Digital8 format in the same camcorder.

I was beginning to worry that alignment might be drifting so I've been borrowing other peoples newer Digital8 camcorders to test playback of my tapes and visa versa and I have had no interchange problems at all. It rarely has needed head cleaning. I've been surprised how robust the transport has been.

The camera section is marginal vs my old CCD-V5000 Hi8. I usually borrow miniDV PD-150's to do serious work but I've also had good results using the V5000 camera and recording to the Digital8. I also use the Digital8 to record in high quality off Betacams or from my cable box for important material. It makes an outstanding VCR that comes amazingly close to 8 bit Betacam quality on S-Video playback.

The only shortcoming has been playback quality of Hi8 material vs the V5000 (which has an internal one line TBC). Its slightly more noisy and less stable than the V5000 through the Canopus ADVC-100 but very close.

Tracking adjustment can be touchy on older Hi8 tapes but never with Digital8 format. Also Hi8 playback has no stop motion, slo-motion or picture in shuttle. Its only good for 1x dubs.

All in all I've been very happy with the DCR-TRV103. I just wish it had "analog pass-through". If it does please show me how?