Had it up to here with Windoze...

[proxyx99]

Having said all that, I am trying all the solutions proposed here (if only because I've never heard them before). But this illustrates another major flaw in Windows' design. It is deliberately designed to make tweaking the system to perform decently an arduous task, and to make replacing the mediocre components with better ones seem more like hard labour. I guess the question is "Where the hell do you want to go today?".

Only 10 years ago you could type a document, do some calc. and do the spreadsheet on the PC. Now you edit videos, browse the internet, publish a whole magazine, design machines, cars to the smallest detail, test them right in your computer. What do you expect? To do all that on 8086 with 64k of RAM? It's not the flaw, it's called progress and meeting variety of needs as well as accomodating hundreds of thousands of software and hardware makers. To put it simply if Windows works on my PC it should work on yours. Since the hardware is not that much different (it used to work, right?) what is left? User, plus the software you installed and supposed to maintain. And yes, things are more and more complicated nowadays. Btw. you can always install Windows 3 and use Notepad.

[jimmalenko]

Can I suggest ghosting as a way around the constant format and reinstall issue ?

Considering every man and his dog are now manufacturing computer parts, I think XP does a pretty fair job in integrating with most hardware. It looks different, but there are a number of ways to customise it to look and feel like the classic windows interface. Products are now being specifically designed to run on it, so a lot more people are going to have to embrace it sooner rather than later if they wish to keep up with the times.


10 bucks says Nilfennasion's problem is hardware-related

[smearbrick1]

I don't think anyone has an issue with the look of XP as opposed to the older versions of Windows. My true beef with Windows (all versions) is that when you do a new install, the optimizations should already be in place. I realize there are several options when installing that allow the user to change specific parms, but these do not include page file/virtual memory setups, indexing services, etc, etc. Point is: it should come out of the box fully optimized. You should be able to install Windows and should not have to change your paging file settings or virtual memory settings, or turn off indexing, or move your swap file to a separate drive and increase its size... this should be right out of the Box!!! Instead of making these changes, you end up having fifty million people bitching about windows and how their programs hang, and how there is constant disk activity, or how it takes 15 minutes just to get one song to play in freakin' winamp! But I digress...

I still believe that without Windows, the computing world would be alot smaller.

[jimmalenko]

I realize there are several options when installing that allow the user to change specific parms, but these do not include page file/virtual memory setups, indexing services, etc, etc. Point is: it should come out of the box fully optimized. You should be able to install Windows and should not have to change your paging file settings or virtual memory settings, or turn off indexing, or move your swap file to a separate drive and increase its size... this should be right out of the Box!!!

What is optimized for you is not for me, and so on...

That makes it practically impossible to suit everyone from day 1. If you have ever written your own software you will know what I mean.

[courtrrb]

The problem your having is only one of the reasons I left windows. I now do all my Capture, Converting, edit and aurthoring under Linux. The last time I tried to capture under windows it would freeze. It turned out to be a DVD reader. The funny thing is I still use the DVD reader under Linux with no problems. I even do my DVD9 to DVD5 under Linux now. It took me awhile to learn what I needed to know but now I can't imagine using Windoze to do any video work. To cumbersome and pricey.

[Nilfennasion]

I used to think the problem was entirely my fault rather than that of an OS where the source code can best be described as a mess. Where a complete rewrite would be needed before the software could be considered truly suitable for mission-critical applications. I even maintained that belief while working at a computer training firm, in spite of the reaction I had to having to reinstall Windows on at least one machine every day of the week.

Then I actually remembered my experiences with other computing systems whilst getting a demo from a friend. To say that the PC market has failed to live up to the expectations that were fuelled in many people during the 1980s is putting it nicely.

Court, perhaps we should sit down and have a talk. I've been trying to find another user who can tell me how to make sense of the whole deal.

[proxyx99]

As an experienced user (which you appear to be) you should be able to pinpoint and eliminate the problem quickly. If you add philosophical twist to your issue it may soon become truly unsolvable. I suggest you stick to the basics and see the issue for what it really is.

As to the bloated code issue: there are at least two ways OS could be offered to the public, self configuring plug and play or Linux-alike where you compile your kernel. I prefer the convenience. MS could remove, I suppose, all the additions to the core of the OS but imagine the outcry (can you see grandma compiling kernel in text mode?).

Mission critical stability: you don't go browsing the net and install whole bunch of potentially conflicting stuff on such machines. XP can be made super stable, but are you going to observe all the rules of the game that apply to mission critical environments?
...OK, I thought so.

[hech54]

There is ALWAYS a reason why someone needs to re-install Windows. And that reason is usually preceded by said someone fvcking around with Windows just like people fvck around with firmware on their burner to make an advertised 4x burner burn at 8x, 12x or even higher (so they claim).
USER ERROR is actually too nice of a term in most cases.

[Nilfennasion]

I have been hacking around with this particular problem for some time now. It first appeared to me four weeks ago, and coincidence being the better part of deduction, I used to believe that it was a problem with Norton Systemworks, which seems to get a big kick out of optimising your system right as you're doing something.

The reason I am so angry at Windows at the moment is because when you install a program, then find it has a detrimental effect on performance or decide that you don't really need it anymore, uninstalling the program will not fix things. The program leaves traces of itself all through the Windows system. Put simply, in order to function under a Windows environment, every application has to embed itself inside Windows' system code, and like the colour-monochrome information in a composite signal, cannot be adequately separated after the fact. Needless to say, system security is pretty weak at best as a result.

I'm fully aware of how unrealistic it is to expect every program to work perfectly with every possible hardware configuration. That's why I try to avoid upgrading whenever possible. But the stability of the operating system could be improved dramatically simply by adequately separating user-level code from kernel-level code, for one thing. A more comprehensive code-sharing system would also dramatically improve performance, too. The fact that when you run Word ten times, the bulk of the code has to be loaded ten times is what causes Windows to perform so badly.

Linux variants are coming to the fore now that offer a similar level of automation to Windows in terms of adding USB and other expansion devices to the computer, so that isn't as big an issue as some people like to make out. Having an all-in-one driver system doesn't actually improve anything, anyway. Windows XP's native WiFi support is a sick joke, and most of the inbuilt programs for extra tasks are not much better. I kind of like having the option to replace mediocre components with better ones (there is no way in hell I would use Windows' native sound recorder, for instance). If anything, by switching to another system, I am merely trying to keep the spirit of customisation alive.

In case anyone is still interested, the disc-grinding issue seems to have been temporarily solved by turning off the indexing (a feature I wasn't even aware of before the upgrade). The real acid test will be when I next burn another half-dozen discs, of course.

EDIT: Hech, this isn't meant as dispariging in any way, but given that every other major electronic appliance in the world can be simply turned on and expected to work, I'm amazed there are people in the world that think it is normal to have a machine that costs as much as five of them put together and cannot be.

[BobK]

> Hech, this isn't meant as dispariging in any way, but given that every other major electronic appliance in the world can be simply turned on and expected to work, I'm amazed there are people in the world that think it is normal to have a machine that costs as much as five of them put together and cannot be.

I don't want to defend Microsoft (but it looks like your comment is directed at computers in general and not Windows). So try to look at the other side of it- can you name a single other electronic applicance that is expected to do as many things as a computer- and is as vunerable to the total idiot screwing around with the workings, or that the user can modify daily to perform new and different tasks?

I know I've had the same electric can opener for about 10 years and have never had it fail to correctly open a can. But that's all it does and I suspect if I tried to make it take my phone messages it would cease to do anything at all.

And other than multifunction computers that we know as "desktops, notebooks, etc" there are thousands of other products that have processors, memory and programming build in that operate perfectly for years on end.

[proxyx99]

If you allow a quick suggestion... I'm also very picky when it comes to stability and reliability (I prefer this over questionable speed gains).
My solution: WinXP dual boot. I have 2 WinXp's installed, one for tinkering the other: well thought-out, tested and limited to important stuff that HAS to work 100% all the time. Minimal set of updates, lean, no-frills setup plus carefully picked apps set. Since I use NTFS in case of first WinXP failure (I admit happened twice - internet crap/virus related) I can easily access all part. from the second one, fix and scan anything I want. That is my ver. of "home brewed" mission critical PC setup that works beautifully. Some apps are duplicated on both for flexibility. I can also manage any PC from another one within my network. Considering wide scope of what I do any other setup would have driven me nuts due to high failure potential (internet beeing a major threat...). This additional layer of comfort costs anywhere from 10 to 20 Gigs depending on needs and is well worth it. I never go (entirely) down, period.
With regard to Linux, tried that and no, thanks. Even though Windows is far from perfection I "feel home" here.

[chobo321321]

If you don't like all the crap windows leaves on your comp se Evidence Eliminator 5. It will get rid of all that crap, and more. You could also try some registry cleaner programs. Also you mentioned Nortons in one of your posts, uninstall that program and return it (if it's Norton Anti-virus) . That program is bloat-ware that doesn't do it's job very well.

Here's a tip which most people could use on formating and restoring windows. Go buy or download Powerquest, and create backup image of your drive C, after all your tweaks, and updates are implemented (do not install any apps, before you create an image). After that a you can format and be up and running in 10 minutes with you desired settings. You would just need to reinstall all your programs like Office, adobe whatever you have.

[hech54]

> Hech, this isn't meant as dispariging in any way, but given that every other major electronic appliance in the world can be simply turned on and expected to work, I'm amazed there are people in the world that think it is normal to have a machine that costs as much as five of them put together and cannot be.

I don't want to defend Microsoft (but it looks like your comment is directed at computers in general and not Windows). So try to look at the other side of it- can you name a single other electronic applicance that is expected to do as many things as a computer- and is as vunerable to the total idiot screwing around with the workings, or that the user can modify daily to perform new and different tasks?

I know I've had the same electric can opener for about 10 years and have never had it fail to correctly open a can. But that's all it does and I suspect if I tried to make it take my phone messages it would cease to do anything at all.

And other than multifunction computers that we know as "desktops, notebooks, etc" there are thousands of other products that have processors, memory and programming build in that operate perfectly for years on end.

Also a good point. However I do happen to agree with Nilfennasion on one point he mentioned. Norton System Works is CRAP and would be the first place I'd look. And Norton Anti-Virus without System Works chobo321321 ?....how would that cause the problems Nilfennasion is having?

[Nilfennasion]

Again, people are confusing the operating system crashing and then failing to work because someone installed a third-party program with normal. It isn't, and until people realise that, or better yet, why, then they are incapable of understanding why I started looking into other systems.

[jimmalenko]

Again, people are confusing the operating system crashing and then failing to work because someone installed a third-party program with normal. It isn't, and until people realise that, or better yet, why, then they are incapable of understanding why I started looking into other systems.

Ever think that the third-party program is to blame and not the operating system ? That is normal. Computers are designed to install the programs you need, not installing and re-installing and un-installing over and over and over again, and then blaming the computer for not being able to handle you changing your mind every 5 days.

I look after 100 computers for my job and I'll be damned if I have to reinstall windows on 5 machines every year. If you're doing 1 a week then there's something wrong with your hardware or your network config.

You are entitled to your opinions and all power to you for feeling so strongly about this, but it seems to me that you are an avid follower of the "I hate Micro$oft" guy and that his article has made you "see the light" so to speak. Vent away by all means but I don't like your chances of convincing anyone.

I read about half that article (I skimmed through, because most of it was so droney and had no factual info to corroborate the story) and I couldn't help but think it was attempting to brainwash people against Microsoft.

Show me where the "kludgey" code that he speaks of about 30 times is. Give me an example of it. It's one thing to make accusations but can he back it up with solid proof ?

Stealing code is nothing new. A more appropriate term would be re-use, and in a programmer's world, re-use is what it's all about. In fact, it's an honour if someone feels that your code is so good it is worth stealing. Why waste time building something new up from scratch every time if you can just import a specific module into a later design ? Who gives a shit if a module of code written in 1985 is included in XP, if that module has been so well-written that it has never needed rewriting ? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I expect you to completely rid yourself of Microsoft Applications. See how far you get.

Many many many many many times over, the user can be held accountable for a lot of problems.

[hech54]

It's a free world man...if you want to look into alternatives...more power to you. What people are saying is that if you poke that bear with that stick long enough....you're gonna get hurt.
XP Pro came with my Dell (Yes....a Dell....the "D" Word) and I've never had to reinstall XP and do you know why?
I DON'T FVCK WITH IT.
I'm here typing to you....checking my e-mail....burning my DVD's...scanning my old pictures...transferring footage from my DV Cam to my HD and all of the other things I do DAILY because I don't muck with my computer.
Mucking with the OS mucks with the computer.....mucking with the computer mucks with the OS. I see it daily....geeks overclocking this....firmware that and most of them have VAST knowledge of re-installing Windows but lack the intelligence to understand what is causing them to need to re-install over and over and over again.
An OS re-install should be considered a last resort....not part of daily maintainence.

[nelson133]

While XP may not be as flakey as Win98, if you run it long enough, it will get squirrelly. I've got 2 XP systems and I don't f**k with them and over a year I have had random weirdness creep in.
As a side note, one machine runs a dual boot with Linux, which I now use for everything but video processing. The stability of Linux compared to XP is very evident. Yup, there's a learning curve with Linux and I haven't tackled the video processing yet, but i have found that a lot of the things that I just assumed were normal annoyances in Windows, don't exit in Linux. Linux is faster on comparable equipment and will run fine on machines that can't handle XP. Nyah Levi

[proxyx99]

Considering all arguments presented I have to agree with jimmalenko. If you ignore all ropes thrown here and continue to drown just to prove your point so be it. As some, I deal with these issues professionally and based on my experience in large, complicated environments I have to say (in response to your arguments against Windows): BS (sorry). My observation is that most ppl who complain DO NOT learn from their own mistakes thereby hugely contributing to their own misery. Unable to address the issue, alone and helpless they usually blame the world for unfair punishment. This is a universal issue (behavior), not limited to computer related problems, we all know that from different sources. Question is whether you continue on this path or do something about it.

The choices are plentiful Mac, Linux, Unix, Solaris and God knows what else. Complaining using vague references to some of the myths about Windows is not gonna get you far.

[vitualis]

IMHO, the broad statement of the "stability of Linux" is questionable.

Everytime I used Linux, I don't have too much trouble crashing it or getting the damn GUI to hang (be it KDE or Gnome).

Linux is great as it is configurable and you can cut out all the things you don't want... which DOES make it very stable for a server, etc.

WindowsXP almost never crashes or hangs randomly like it does on the Win9x platform. Internet Explorer/Windows Explorer is a slightly dodgey component of Windows and if anything stuffs up, it is often due to this. Unlike Win98, this doesn't take the OS down with it and since I almost never use IE (I use Firefox), this rarely happens.

But this isn't the core OS / kernel itself that is screwing up. Basically, it is the Windows Manager (and with WinXP, it usually just reloads itself mostly okay).

Badly written software / hardware drivers can make any OS unstable but this isn't really the fault of the OS itself.

Regards.