I'm looking to buy or build a new awesome encoding machine

[videocheez]

I'm ready to buy an new computer. I'm thinking about having a custom box built for me. Currently I have a 2.53GHz P4, 1GB RAM and 2x80GB RAiD Hardrives. This system gas been great but I'm thinking its time to get something big, better, faster,stronger, newer.......ad infinitum.

During the day time I continually game. On the weekends sometimes maybe 8 hours. In between gaming I will edit video and chat with online friends. At night almost everyday I'm encoding and processing video.

I was considering a dual processor system but the guy at the computer store was telling me that the dual processor systems are mainly for servers and dont do the multimedia and gaming as good as a P4.

I wanted to see if you guys had an opinions on a good system that work as a gamer by day and an encoder by night. If I'm asking for to versitile a system. I would like to have the good hardcore reliable robust encoding machine.

Also will programs like virtual dub and CCE take advantage of both processors.

Thanks in advance,

VC

[rallynavvie]

I'm an encoder by day and gamer by night but both my old workstation and the new one have been good gaming machines. I think was more contingent upon the video card installed. The old one had a 4400 (still a powerhouse of a video card) and the new one a 5600 (about as powerful as the 4400 but with DX9). Dual CPU machines are not just for servers, they make wonderful workstation platforms. With a pair of fast processors you could be using one CPU to encode and instead of waiting for your computer to free up you could use the other CPU to game on. Thus the power of SMP. Not all apps see the second processor to utilize both. CCE might, I know TMPGEnc does, Premiere and its MainConcept encoder do, so does AfterEffects. There aren't any games that I know of that are SMP aware but that isn't a bad thing. Take for instance my new workstation. It has two 3.06 Xeons on it. Individually a 3.06 GHz CPU is going to handle pretty much any game on the market. As long as your video card is up to snuff you can game to your heart's content. At the same time you can be doing an encode on v-dub (I think that app only sees one processor). The only thing you need to watch out for is hard drive access. You don't want to be encoding to/from the same drive your game is installed to. I run encodes between IDE drives on my workstation, leaving the 10k SATA drive to run my apps. I also occasionally install games where I may wish to server on my SCSI RAID drives so they can access as fast as they want.

Anyway, to the point. Dual-processor is more expensive by quite a bit but IMO is totally worth it if you really utilize your computer to the most. Here are some prices to build on: (most prices are NewEgg)

Great system--
Motherboard: Asus PC-DL ($195)
Great entry-level Xeon board with a fantastic chipset. Won't support the new 800 FSB Xeons though and doesn't have any PCI-X.

Processors: Intel Xeon 2.8 GHz Prestonia ($275 each)
Best price for power of 533 FSB Xeons. Also the 1MB cache Gallatins are nice.

Memory: Mushkin Level 2 PC2100 dual pack ($252)
The last 1GB of RAM you'll ever want in your system. No room for overclocking the FSB with this though.

PSU: Antec True550EPS ($110)
Bottom line is don't skimp on a power supply with a rig this expensive, or any computer for that matter.

Video card: however much you want to afford for gaming. Personally I'd say get a 6800 Ultra or X800 XT.

Hard drives: whatever
I highly recommend the 74GB SATA Raptors though, I'm very pleased with mine.

So that's just over $1000 for all the core parts (board, CPUs, memory, and power supply). The rest is whatever you like pretty much. You want better:

Motherboard: Iwill DH800 ($335)
Supports 800 FSB Xeons and has 2 PCI-X slots. Also much better VRM and board quality than the Asus. Same great chipset.

Processors: Intel Xeon 3.06 GHz Nocona ($365 each)
The 800 FSB processors cost nearly the same as their 533 FSB counterparts but you need the board to run them. I'd also wait until their next stepping revision as it seems the current ones are having troubles.

Memory: Mushkin 2-2-2 PC3200 dual pack ($339)
Again the last 1GB of RAM you'll ever want. Mushkin had far superior BH-6 chips on their 2-2-2 but not anymore. You can still get the BH-6 ones but they are $$$

PSU: the same Antec True550EPS for $110

That core system will set you back $1500 but you'll get a bit better speed and performance from it. Both will game pretty much the same unless your game really likes 800 FSB. Multi-tasking is a blast with these though. We once ran a dedicated server on my old workstation and I joined as a client on the same machine at a LAN. We had 14 players and I didn't notice any slowdown in my gameplay. We were playing BF1942 and I was still running my dual 1900 MP machine. You can't do that with a single processor system.

[Capmaster]

videocheez,
Your current system sounds pretty nice. Are you sure you're going to get that much more speed from a new system? The incremental speed boosts have less and less effect each year.

If I were you I would just concentrate on the disc subsystem and maybe video card. Get yourself a flame-belching 15K SCSI drive. That'll probably speed everything up more than a new CPU would.

[rallynavvie]

2.53s were still 400 FSB IIRC. Wouldn't hurt to quadruple the available bus speeds with dual 800 FSB Xeons

[BJ_M]

2.53s were still 400 FSB IIRC. Wouldn't hurt to quadruple the available bus speeds with dual 800 FSB Xeons

yep

Iwill DH800 mother board
2x xeon 3.6 800FSB
2 gig dual channel memory
sata raid on board

all pci-x motherboard

[DVD_Ripper]

videocheez,
Your current system sounds pretty nice. Are you sure you're going to get that much more speed from a new system? The incremental speed boosts have less and less effect each year.

If I were you I would just concentrate on the disc subsystem and maybe video card. Get yourself a flame-belching 15K SCSI drive. That'll probably speed everything up more than a new CPU would.

I agree.... you've got a pretty good machine now.

Maybe with the save money you can buy a high end MPEG Hware encoder and maybe a highend flat panel monitor / tv

[videocheez]

Iwill DH800 mother board
2x xeon 3.6 800FSB
2 gig dual channel memory
sata raid on board

all pci-x motherboard

This sounds like the system that I would like to have. Thanks for the advice everyone. The system that I have has been very nice but it's two years old and I'm craving a new system. I will still use the old system all the time but I'm looking to get a new box that is custom. I don't want to go down to Fry's, Best Buy and Comp USA again and pick-up something off the shelf and feel like some of the hardware is not best suited for the gaming and encoding.

Processors: Intel Xeon 3.06 GHz Nocona ($365 each)
The 800 FSB processors cost nearly the same as their 533 FSB counterparts but you need the board to run them. I'd also wait until their next stepping revision as it seems the current ones are having troubles.

What do you mean by the next stepping revision? Are you referring to the Xeons or the motherboard or both? I would like to get the 800 FSB version because my wife will not let me get another box for atleast another couple of years so i will try to get the most that I can afford while she is willing to let me spend my money. Shen can't understand why i need another computer.

Maybe with the save money you can buy a high end MPEG Hware encoder and maybe a highend flat panel monitor / tv

How much would a high end mpeg encoder cost? The fancy flat panels still seem out of my price range.

I havent actually received my bonus yet so I'm just fantasizing a bit but I want to be ready to make the purchase when the cash comes.

Thanks for the time,

VC

[BJ_M]

since software encders run at 1x speed plus or minus .. a hardware encder is not always really a good buy ... but a good one can run about 700$ and go up to 10k .. cheaper ones you can get i guess for about 100-500

flat panels have come down a lot in price -- though really good ones are still pretty expensive ..

you can get a pretty decent one for 700$ - $900 and a not bad one if you shop carefully for 600$

[rallynavvie]

Forget the LCD display unless you need it to save space. You can buy two good CRTs for what one good LCD cost which is a far better deal if you have the room for them. I run two Viewsonic 19" CRTs and would hate to give them up.

The 800 FSB Xeons that are out now have been having some problems from the few reviews I've been able to read. Intel didn't release hardly any samples at all to reviewers so that was kind of fishy to begin with. There will be a stepping revision to the processors which will likely be released in the fall sometime. I would highly suggest waiting for that if you can, I know I am.

I don't like the idea of hardware encoders anymore. They're nice if you're capturing from several devices and want realtime MPEG encoding. However if you're doing any editing you'll want the source to be in DV AVI anyway. With how fast my system is I don't see why it would even be necessary. I can encode far faster than realtime with SMP aware encoders.

The DH800 is a great board. The Asus has better overclocking options so far but the DH800 is fantastic in its stock form. I'm really loving mine. You may also want to watch for the Asus PCH-DL which is the Asus equivalent to the DH800. The build quality on the Iwill will still be a bit better than Asus who are going for economy, but that's not to say it won't be a good board. You may want to look into getting a better sound card that supports EAX if you're into gaming a lot since the onboard audio is pretty standard (though still 6-channel) and it has no headers for front inputs. There is onboard FireWire with a header for front output, 4 USB 2.0 rear ports but no header for front output (get a PCI card that has this if you really want it), and onboard CSA GbE which has been a great feature (it doesn't go through the ICH). Here are some pics of mine before I got the procs and some screenshots of when I got it running:
http://4wheelracing.com/media/dh800/

I was able to modify that Antec P160 case to fit the EATX board. If you like that case and get an EATX board I can tell you how I did it. It was pretty easy, just removed the removable motherboard tray feature.

[BJ_M]

rallynavvie
sorry to go OT -- but nice setup you have there .. how are you cooling your cpu's ?

[rallynavvie]

Not really OT for this thread if we're discussing workstations, yeah?

I've got Swiftech 603s on them both. I've got to get some pictures of the system now with those in it to show just how tight the fit is on those two HSF and the video card. The fan on the #2 proc is so close to the video card you can just barely slip a piece of paper between them. I've got Panaflo medium speed fans on top of those pushing 32 CFM at only 28 dB. They're probably good for the mild overclock I'll do when I get around to pulling the procs to do the BSEL mod. I'm planning on bumping my D1s up to 3.2 and 800 FSB. There are a few folks with D1s that are able to do this with only the simple pin-insulating mod. As of now I don't see processor temps exceeding 45°C with ambient temps of 28°C. The small OC should only bump these up a few degrees. I really like the Swiftys though.

The few things I didn't like about the DH800 were the lack of front USB headers, onboard audio in/out headers for front panel, and the insufficient passive heatsink on the MCH. That tends to be the warmest part of the system at 50°C. That will have to go soon but I haven't decided which cooler I want to put on there instead. It will be active cooling though.

[BJ_M]

maybe you can just mount a small fan on the MCH..

yes --i heard about the tight fit between cpu and video card, i know some are clipping the leads real close to the board for clearance .. or just go to a pci-x vid card ..

good to know that fan combo works ... just ..

[rallynavvie]

Actually if it weren't for the end of overclocking I'd be trading this in for a 925 or better chipset when they become available. PCI-E video cards are going to be fun, and the ability to put them in any PCI-E slot available is handy.

I do see that #2 is 2° warmer than #1 at all times, but in the big picture it doesn't make much of a difference. I want quiet over cooling since that primary workstation shares the room with my home theater. I'd rather it be seen not heard

I do have the little 40mm off my Tyan's MCH HSF for the moment. It doesn't seem to do much. I think it's just because it's a crappy aluminum sink. I need to get a copper sink on there. Unfortunately most of the low-profile active coolers require thermal adhesive because the mounts don't work right and I'd rather avoid gluing things to my board.

[videocheez]

2.53s were still 400 FSB IIRC. Wouldn't hurt to quadruple the available bus speeds with dual 800 FSB Xeons

I know we are talking about my future computer but I dug up the specs of my existing comp because I thought that I rembered reading that it had 533FSB. I remember when I bought it the salesman was saying that this was a big deal like it was new or something.

These are the specs of my current computer:
Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor at 2.53GHz
533 MHz front side bus
512K processor cache
512MB DDR memory
Intel RAID-ready motherboard
160GB hard drive capacity (80GB x 2)
7200 RPM ATA/100 server grade hard drive

Anyways regarding the future comp, I have a few more questions about some of the equipment that you are recommending.

Memory: Mushkin 2-2-2 PC3200 dual pack ($339)
Again the last 1GB of RAM you'll ever want. Mushkin had far superior BH-6 chips on their 2-2-2 but not anymore. You can still get the BH-6 ones but they are $$$

Is this 1GB of memory or 2GB of memory? Are they 512 memory sticks?
What do you mean I can get the BH-6 ones. Do I have to specify them? Whats the differnence in price and in quality? I curently have 1GB of memeory and it seems fine but I figured that since I'm working on getting the best system possible I should consider getting 2GB. Would I order 2 Mushkin 1GB's or 4 512's is I decide on the IwillDH800?

I highly recommend the 74GB SATA Raptors though, I'm very pleased with mine.

With the DH800, could I install 2 Raptors with RAID 0 Stripe for writing all of my encoded video to and then put the OS and programs like premier, UT tournament , avisynth, vdub etc onto an IDE drive?

Thanks for putting the pictures and stuff. The case is pretty slick. Are the modifications simple enough for a newb? Will it have enough fans to keep all of this stuff cool?
If I wanted to have the firewire and USB ports available in the front, could I still use the DH800 or did you mention getting a PCI card that could handle that.

Finally I was wasting time at work today talking with our IT guy and showing some of your suggestions and he said that he only installs Intel Mother Boards but he admitted that the I/O maybe a little slow he thought that they were more reliable. I told him that I don't want one of the work stations that he installs in our office but instead I want an fast encoding machine and the guys and vcdhelp.com know about hardware for video. Do you have any comments about his preference for intel motherboards?
Thanks for the time. I'm researching and paying attention to all of your comments so please be patient with my questions.

Thanks in advance,

VC

[rallynavvie]

Intel workstation motherboards use the 7525 chipset IIRC. While there's nothing really wrong with it they are based on their 7505 server platform and added PCI-E and DDR2 capabilities. The 875 chipset has more support out there in software because it's a far more prevalent chipset being the same one many of the 800 FSB single P4 boards use. In fact I think the only Intel boards that use the workstation chipset are technically server boards. The DH800 has the Hance Rapids ICH in addition to the 875 MCH which has made for a good combination.

Mushkin uses BH-5 chips in their 2-2-2 PC3200 now but that's not anything bad, it's still far better than many other manufacturers. The BH-6 chips were just a good piece quicker than the others but their stock of them is low. I see on their website they are selling their remaining stock for $999 per 2x 512MB sticks. I'm glad I got mine back when they were $400 per pair. I got 4x sticks of 512MB from them but I use that much RAM. Unless you're doing RAM previews in AfterEffects or doing 3d design that loads into memory you won't use 2GB. In fact you may lose some performance in lesser applications like games because you have too much memory. 512MB is good, 1GB is great, but more than that I'd suggest only if you see you're using it all. Don't worry about the BH-6 chips, it was just something nice while it lasted.

A few people are using the SATA RAID feature on the DH800. I wouldn't. RAID 0 means you lose it all if something goes bad. In fact for video 2 seperate drives are better than 2 drives striped. Reading and writing to the same volume, even a RAID 0 one, is not a good idea. If you do get 2x 74GB Raptors use one for boot and all your apps, use the other for your video and maybe put your games on it. Get a large IDE drive and use it for storage of all your music, videos, document, etc. If you want silly fast get yourself an Adaptec 39320R host adapter and a bunch of 15k U320 SCSI drives.

There is a header for front FireWire, but if you want front USB you'll need to get a PCI card for it. Same goes if you want front audio inputs/outputs. I'm looking to get a SB Audigy ZS Plat Pro this fall since I do game a bit with this computer and have a good set of speakers attached. I don't care too much about front USB since I just got a hub running to the front from one of the rear ports. Just be careful though, you only have one useable PCI slot if you get a big video card. The PCI-X slots are in the middle and if you plug a PCI card in there it'll slow the PCI-X bus to PCI speeds. Use that one PCI slot for your sound card, save the PCI-X for SCSI adapters or the like.

The Antec P160 case is nice. I liked it when it first came out, though it said it would be an inch short of fitting my board. While it's a tight fit nothing is really crowded because the layout of the case is so great. The modification I did was to take the lip of the right side of the removable motherboard tray that would have kept an EATX board from fitting on it and permanently mounting the tray to the case. We just took a pliers and bent the lip until it broke off and the filed the edge down smooth. Then we mounted the tray in place and drilled holes through it into the case crossmembers behind it and used small bolts to hold it there. I could take pictures of what I did if you plan on getting the case, but it was easy. You just need to be careful when bending the aluminum so as not to warp the tray.

[videocheez]

A few people are using the SATA RAID feature on the DH800. I wouldn't. RAID 0 means you lose it all if something goes bad. In fact for video 2 seperate drives are better than 2 drives striped. Reading and writing to the same volume, even a RAID 0 one, is not a good idea. If you do get 2x 74GB Raptors use one for boot and all your apps, use the other for your video and maybe put your games on it. Get a large IDE drive and use it for storage of all your music, videos, document, etc. If you want silly fast get yourself an Adaptec 39320R host adapter and a bunch of 15k U320 SCSI drives.

I had heard that RAID 0 is a fast way to write data to a hardrive but ok let's forget about that for the future comp.
If I follow you suggestion and get the 2 Raptors, im confused about whats going on with video processing. For example, lately I have been capturing DV via firewire from the camcorder to my RAID 0 drives. After the data is on the comp i use Premier to edit and then Encore to author and Encore or CCE to convert the home movies to MPEG2.
Would my DV source and the MPEG2 that I finally produce both be on the same Raptor drive?

I could take pictures of what I did if you plan on getting the case, but it was easy. You just need to be careful when bending the aluminum so as not to warp the tray.

If you get a chance I would not mind taking a peak .

Thanks again for the time,

VC

[BJ_M]

when you capture DV (transfer) , you really don't need a super fast drive or raid drive setup .. any ata100 7300 rpm drive can work with dv capture just fine -- like a nice big fat 200 or 250 gig WD just for capture ..

[videocheez]

when you capture DV (transfer) , you really don't need a super fast drive or raid drive setup .. any ata100 7300 rpm drive can work with dv capture just fine -- like a nice big fat 200 or 250 gig WD just for capture ..

Ok, cool that answers one of my questions. Now I'm wondering about encoding. Should I write and read from the same drive and will a fast drive matter? Our IT guy at work said that writing and readng from the same drive will slow down enoding although he doesn't claim to know too much about the subject.

Thanks in advance,

VC

[rallynavvie]

A few people are using the SATA RAID feature on the DH800. I wouldn't. RAID 0 means you lose it all if something goes bad. In fact for video 2 seperate drives are better than 2 drives striped. Reading and writing to the same volume, even a RAID 0 one, is not a good idea. If you do get 2x 74GB Raptors use one for boot and all your apps, use the other for your video and maybe put your games on it. Get a large IDE drive and use it for storage of all your music, videos, document, etc. If you want silly fast get yourself an Adaptec 39320R host adapter and a bunch of 15k U320 SCSI drives.

If you get one Raptor use it for your boot, then get the IDE drive and either read or write to it. I'd say the best bet would be to capture to the SATA drive and encode to the IDE drive.

[ViRaL1]

I'd think you'd be better off capturing to the ATA and encoding to the SATA. You're limited by the speed of your firewire device when you're capturing and ATA should be more than able to keep up. On the other hand, once the data is read from ATA and encoded, you'd see more of a speed advantage writing to SATA than you would reading from SATA and writing to ATA. I think you'd have more of a bottleneck the other way around.

[videocheez]

I'd think you'd be better off capturing to the ATA and encoding to the SATA. You're limited by the speed of your firewire device when you're capturing and ATA should be more than able to keep up. On the other hand, once the data is read from ATA and encoded, you'd see more of a speed advantage writing to SATA than you would reading from SATA and writing to ATA. I think you'd have more of a bottleneck the other way around.

Now I'm getting confused. I know when I capture to my laptop, I will get dropped frames and my laptop's hardrive is not real fast. I never have any dropped frames when capturing to my desktop's 7200 RPM device.

I will have to experiment.

[VideoTechMan]

Now I'm getting confused. I know when I capture to my laptop, I will get dropped frames and my laptop's hardrive is not real fast. I never have any dropped frames when capturing to my desktop's 7200 RPM device.

I will have to experiment.

You have to remember, im not sure what brand laptop you use, but most laptop hard drives are 4200RPM standard built in speed-wise, so generally they run slower than the 5400 and 7200 drives and are morst likely to cause dropped frames. I know on my next laptop I am planning to buy (custom built) I am going to spec a 5400 drive for the system and an additional 7200 drive for my AV captures for the laptop.

And when you are capturing DV from your camcorder, the data rate of DV is at a fixed rate of 3.6MB/sec, so pretty much any modern hard drive nowadays can capture DV without any problems. Unlike the nightmare problems with the analog capture cards several years ago, DV is pretty much a snap.

And, I also wouldnt recommend RAID 0 for capturing either...if one of the drives fail you lose everything on both drives. Safest to get 2 drives and capture to them seperately, so if one goes bad, at least you will have the other still.

VTM

[ViRaL1]

You don't necessarily NEED RAID 0 for capturing, it'll be a bit faster, but it's up to you to decide if the speed is worth the risk. Although, you shouldn't have to worry TOO MUCH about drive failure, if you're capturing anything that's not LIVE, you already have your backup.

[videocheez]

Hard drives: whatever
I highly recommend the 74GB SATA Raptors though, I'm very pleased with mine.

Memory: Mushkin 2-2-2 PC3200 dual pack ($339)
Again the last 1GB of RAM you'll ever want. Mushkin had far superior BH-6 chips on their 2-2-2 but not anymore. You can still get the BH-6 ones but they are $$$

PSU: the same Antec True550EPS for $110

I finally got the bonus money so it's time to start shopping: Fry's has a sale and it looks like two of your suggestions are on sale. The Raptor for $149 after rebate limit 1 per customer and also the memory that you suggested for $129 after rebate.

I want to make sure the memory is the same as you have suggested because the price at Fry's is much less. Their description is:
PC3200 dual channel 2x512MBDDR400. Is this the same as the 2-2-2 that you have mentioned?
Also will this memory work with the DH800?
Last I want to know if you got an update on regarding the next stepping revsion of the Xeon 3.06GHz 800FSB chips. I cant wait man.

Thanks in advance,

VC

[rallynavvie]

Still supposed to be Q4 this year so at least October for the E0 Nocona revision.

That info on the memory doesn't tell me what brand it is. Do you have a link to it at Fry's? Seems way to cheap for that memory.

[ViRaL1]

The Raptor for $149 after rebate limit 1 per customer and also the memory that you suggested for $129 after rebate.

The store may Limit you to 1 drive. But the rebate allows up to two per customer/name/address. You can pick one up at another Fry's or just get in someone else's line with the second one.

http://image.ak.outpost.com/art/rebates_pdf/3950078.pdf

[rallynavvie]

Hmm, for that price maybe I need another one...

No, no, can't keep buying computer parts at random. I have created a list of computer components to purchase for my system(s) and I have to stick to it

[ViRaL1]

What's on the list so far. It's nice to know I'm not the only junkie. :P

[rallynavvie]

- Nocona processors in Q4 when the E0 stepping revision is out
- GeForce 6800 Ultra for the fast machine
- GbE switch and a NIC for the old SMP machine
- a pair of Pioneer 108s (one for a FireWire enclosure)
- SB Audigy Plat Pro so I can play games with EAX
- more SCSI storage for the old SMP machine
- upgrade my Adobe video bundle to x.5
- a Sony digital VTR

And finally rackmount components for my home theater system up at the cabin. Haven't really decided on specifics for it yet.

[ViRaL1]

Are there any machines out yet that are slotted to take advantage of DUAL 6800s yet?