What would you do to stop piracy?

[gitreel]

@adam

To the people slaving away making minimum wage who can just barely support their family, twenty-twenty-five dollars is unreasonable. They would have to work about four hours to pay for one.

[flaninacupboard]

Our telephone system was dominated by one company, British Telecom until a few years ago, when a law change meant they had to hire out their lines at "operating cost" to other networks. perhaps the same should be done for movies. Have Criterion do decent DVD's for $20 a piece and shit-R-us make DVD's for $5, single layer, no menu, no inlay, no frills, but both co's pay the same 5c to the rights holder.

makes sense to me, the people who can afford the $20 will pay it (because of "cheapass" stigmatism) and those who can afford $5 only will give it to a shop rather than a pirate.

[adam]

@adam

To the people slaving away making minimum wage who can just barely support their family, twenty-twenty-five dollars is unreasonable. They would have to work about four hours to pay for one.

There is a fair price to be paid for every commodity. Just because some people still can't afford this, that doesnt make the price unreasonable. People who can barely afford to feed themselves simply are not in the market for a luxury item like a DVD. For people in the market for DVDs, $25 is a fair price.

I've seen plenty of people who couldn't afford a loaf of bread, but that doesn't make the $1 it costs unreasonable.

[gitreel]

Ok, I will chalk this up to a difference of opinion.

The price is not my complaint.
Mine is not being able to legally back up dvd's I bought.
I hate the Mpaa stating I am a criminal because I want to protect my investment.

I honestly feel the way to make more money is to stop making joe blow a criminal, lower prices and stop trying to stifle innovation.

[adam]

Oh, well that's a whole other argument.

But here's food for thought. If they pass legislation to allow an exception to copyright law to allow you to backup DVDs and cds that you own (it is in the works actually) then the price of these items, and/or the materials used to backup them up, will go up. There is no doubt about this. The consumer will have to pay either a tax on recordable media and maybe recorders or have to pay a higher price for the movies and cds themselves. This extra money will subsidize the industry, because x amount of their income does come from repeat purchases. You can't have it both ways. If they are already selling the disks for as low as they can, and they are going to lose even more money by letting you backup, then they've got to raise prices. You can't blame the industry for wanting to turn a profit.

So, are you still willing have legal rights to backup at the cost of higher prices? I am. This is exactly what has been going on in Canada for years.

[gitreel]

I would be willing to pay a little more in order to make backups.

The way they use artificial scarcity, it is always good to have backups, because there are some movies that you can't buy anymore.

Disney is probably the worst at artificial scarcity. I don't know why they do it when scarcity is so unnecessary.

[Tiny71]

There's lots of things I want that I can't afford but I'm not stealing them to get them.

I understand your point of view, but we're not talking about a house on the hamptons, or the gambling weekend trip to Monaco. We're just talking about a single dvd movie, that's it.

I think that if they splitted the world in regions for controlling movie distribution, they should also thought about the economic reality of each of these regions and at least made price adjustments to fit these new market's pockets, therefore, claimed a new market and a new income.
Instead, here, the originals costs like 100% more, earning 1000% less.
Imagine that your dvds were priced $600 - $800 each.

It's easy to say "Don't buy them if you don't have the money" when you're on the upper side of the coin, but, as I already said, we're not talking about real luxuries, just simple movies.
The same way, it's hard to understand this to a person that never tasted the other side of the coin.

Then again, I'm not justifying them, just trying to find at least a theoretical solution to the situation..... that's why we're here, isn't it?... to discuss!

If it is not food, shelter, or clothing.....its a luxury.

[thecoalman]

I would be willing to pay a little more in order to make backups.

The way they use artificial scarcity, it is always good to have backups, because there are some movies that you can't buy anymore.

Disney is probably the worst at artificial scarcity. I don't know why they do it when scarcity is so unnecessary.

Don't have to pay to back up now, I see nothing wrong with that. If I had copies of all the damn music tapes I had when I was a kid I would have a huge collection, bought and paid for.

Think they keep what's on the market to a minimum to boosts profits on what they sell. They can sell less for more. They know people are going to buy it and if there is only so many available they can sell them for more for a higher profit margin. Piracy may play a role in that too since they won't be making a lot of product that might not be bought.

[lordsmurf]

The Renaissance was about sharing art and knowledge, for what little existed.

Today is the anti-Renaissance, where only the richest and most wealthy can enjoy art and culture.

To them I say:

$25 is ridiculous. The movie was already paid for by the theatres in most cases. The costs of the ENTIRE RUN of discs is usually covered in the first shipment. Everything after that is profit. Companies do not need to make billions.

Sure, sure, bring in the stock market crap, more profit, better company, jobs, yada yada, but see how many of them care since they're too poor to buy stocks.

There is no way to legitimize the greed of several industries, mainly entertainment and oil. Sure, you have a right to make money, but to what end?

Baloney: " If it is not food, shelter, or clothing.....its a luxury. "
We're humans, not bears or dung beatles. We have more advanced needs. We are creatures of culture. To deny it is criminal.

My thoughts.

[Roundabout]

Adam,

I'm sure since you were in Ukraine, you saw firsthand some of the pirating going on there - it's in every metro station and street corner in the country. If you were in Kiev and walked around Kreshatik (Central city) you probably found you could buy copies of any software for 10 or 12 Hryvny (~$2.00US). The government makes noise about stopping it, but I suspect some in the government are involved in it, or they get kickbacks for ignoring it.

Same goes for movies, they sell all the latest Hollywood movies, though they are for the local market and have been dubbed in Russian, but I had a hard time even finding a legit release of any movies there. Even if they wanted to, the locals can't buy a real release anywhere. That's not to say that they don't exist. But the bootlegs outnumber the real copies seemingly at a factor of 1000:1 or more.

I don't know of anyone, including my relatives there, that would even consider buying a real copy of anything, when their average salary in a month is $25.00US equivalent. In fact, they rarely buy any VCD's/DVD's/Music CD's at all, even bootleg, because it is a luxury, not a necessity.

I think you'd agree with me, most of the people you meet there aren't pirates and don't condone piracy, but when they have a choice of a legit product at a high price or a knockoff at a fraction of the price, what do you think they are going to choose? It's human nature that they are going to buy the bargain.

Of course, the real problem, as has already been pointed out, is the discrepancy of income vs. the cost of "luxury" goods. While the locals live in proverty, then this type of pirating is going to continue to flourish. When/If they are ever able to improve the wages of the common man there (and not just "New Russians") then you might see a change.

It's not confined to MeDiCo_BrUjO's country or Ukraine and Russia, it's all over the world, especially in places where the cost of such goods far outstrip the ability of people to afford it on the meager wages they receive.

BTW: Adam, if you don't mind me asking, why were you in Ukraine? It's not exactly a hotspot for tourism and a visa for US citizens costs $100.00 to go there. The US government charges their (Ukraine) citizens $100.00 for a US visa - if they're lucky enough to be able to qualifiy for one in the first place. $100.00 is a lot for us to get a visa, you can imagine what that cost is like to the average Ukrainian. And the visa fee isn't refunded if the visa is refused, which happens often.

[d_unbeliever]

you can't stop piracy...distribute the movies for free, then you can stop piracy ...

They will never lower the prices of original vcd/dvd movies...those rich bastards can't afford it (how ironic)...

THERE IS NOTHING YOU OR THEY CAN DO TO STOP PIRACY...

[tweedledee]

How about if you buy a DVD movie and loan it to all your friends, and everyone down your street? isn't this the same? neither the studio or the actors get anything You might as well have run off a few copies to make it more convenient.

[IAIHMB]

This is why I believe in piracy.

[adam]

Roundabout, yes I did the tourist shopping in Kiev and did indeed see pirated versions of everything. I think you just re-iterated everything I already said. The bootlegging is simply the result of much larger economic problems. Its the same way in many other countries. While its not necessarily an excuse to pirate, since you can always just go without, it does make the pirating in these countries a little more understandable. This is why I personally find it a little sad when people in other countries are lucky enough to be able to afford a DVD for a couple of hours of work, yet still pirate them, and even worse blame their own actions on the movie industry!

I was sponsored to go to Ukraine by a charity that I volunteer for called Hope Now. It raises well over a million dollars each year and provides aid to Ukraine and South Africa, mostly to orphanages and the homeless. I was sent because of my videography experience. I filmed everything and am in the process of producing a short (20-30min) documentary plus a 30 second tv-spot which Hope Now will distribute/air to raise support.

[Roundabout]

I did the tourist shopping in Kiev and did indeed see pirated versions of everything.

I won't ask how many you bought :P
Tempting, however, but I don't need/want to know.

While its not necessarily an excuse to pirate, since you can always just go without, it does make the pirating in these countries a little more understandable. This is why I personally find it a little sad when people in other countries are lucky enough to be able to afford a DVD for a couple of hours of work, yet still pirate them, and even worse blame their own actions on the movie industry!

I'm glad you have some compassion/understanding for the situation that people are in over there. I agree with you 100% on your comments.

I don't pirate movies, but I can't really say it's necessarily due to high moral standards - I wish I could say it was - it's more that I don't see anything I want. To be honest, there hasn't been a movie or CD that I've seen in a number of years that I'd want, even for free. So that'll keep me out of trouble

I haven't been inside a movie theater in 5 or 6 years. I bought all the music I wanted years ago, and haven't purchased a new CD in close to 7 years. If there were to be any music I'd like released, I would just go out and buy it, mostly for better sound quality, and also for the liner notes and such.

I was sponsored to go to Ukraine by a charity that I volunteer for called Hope Now. It raises well over a million dollars each year and provides aid to Ukraine and South Africa, mostly to orphanages and the homeless. I was sent because of my videography experience. I filmed everything and am in the process of producing a short (20-30min) documentary plus a 30 second tv-spot which Hope Now will distribute/air to raise support.

That's really great you were able to do that. I'd like to see the documentary when you get it done, if you post or show it somewhere. My wife and I (she's a Ukrainian citizen) would like to find ways to help, if there is some possibility. Those people have so little, and what goes on with the orphanages and homeless is very sad. They seem to be forgotten in the chaos that is modern-day Ukraine. Regular people are just trying to survive, they don't have time to think about those that are even worse off than they are. I don't blame them, but it's a very sad situation.

Sorry about hijacking the thread, though this is somewhat related to the whole proverty/pirating issue.

[MeDiCo_BrUjO]

Lordsmurf Wrote

We're humans, not bears or dung beatles. We have more advanced needs. We are creatures of culture. To deny it is criminal.

Thank you!

Roundabout wrote:

The US government charges their (Ukraine) citizens $100.00 for a US visa - if they're lucky enough to be able to qualifiy for one in the first place. $100.00 is a lot for us to get a visa, you can imagine what that cost is like to the average Ukrainian. And the visa fee isn't refunded if the visa is refused, which happens often.

The very same thing here, very often the Visa is denied and the funds are not returned.

[MeDiCo_BrUjO]

Roundabout wrote

Sorry about hijacking the thread, though this is somewhat related to the whole proverty/pirating issue.

No worries, besides, it has a lot to do with it!, I'm glad you took the time to post here.

[Roundabout]

The very same thing here, very often the Visa is denied and the funds are not returned.

And I wouldn't blame them at all for hating the US for taking their money and giving nothing in return. If it were me, I'd be inclined to strangle the person denying the visa.

After what I've seen, where people stand in line in freezing cold weather for hours in a long line, only to have their money stolen from them and whatever hopes they had of coming for a visit to the US dashed, I am appalled. I felt ashamed of being a US citizen when I saw this happen firsthand. It's one thing to hear or read about it, and another when you see it happening in front of you.

For God's sake, at least return their money! Heartless bureaucrats...

[adam]

I didn't buy any bootlegs while I was there. I'm pretty much like you, I'm not even morally opposed to obtaining software illegally, I'd just rather buy the real thing because its usually a superior product. Its just when people do pirate software and then make excuses or blame the action on the "industry" that I get offended. People who make these claims are just kidding themselves. If you want to steal something just do it and be satisfied with the fact that you got something for nothing. Don't turn around and bite the hand that fed you...for free. BTW, I'm not at all talking to you Roundabout, I'm just ranting in general, in reference to your post.

As for Hope Now, their website is http://www.hopenow.org.uk/
Their main base is in the UK but they have others in America, Ukraine, South America and probably other places as well, and they receive donations from all over the globe. I've worked first hand with the volunteers of this organization including the founder, who was once homeless himself, and I can say with complete certainty that every cent donated goes directly to the people who need it.

The video I'm producing will be a Mini-DVD, which will be playable on any windows-based pc. It will be burnt on an 80 min cdr so it will be a little more than 700MB's. If anyone has server space I'd love for someone to host it for the cable/dsl users. I'd have to mail you a copy though since I'm on dial up. Roundabout, I can mail you a copy regardless if you're interested.

I'm going all out on this DVD. Its going to have interactive menu's and features including my best effort at 3D animation. After having done some of the editing already, I can say that there is at least one guaranteed laugh out loud and that the last 5 mins just might make you cry.

I guess I have to apologize for hijacking this thread too. Sorry.

[MeDiCo_BrUjO]

Roundabout wrote

After what I've seen, where people stand in line in freezing cold weather for hours in a long line, only to have their money stolen from them and whatever hopes they had of coming for a visit to the US dashed, I am appalled.

The same here, people sleep over the gates of the embassy to save a turn.

It's one thing to hear or read about it, and another when you see it happening in front of you.

This is what I was talking about!

Adam wrote

I'm going all out on this DVD. Its going to have interactive menu's and features including my best effort at 3D animation.

Please let me know when it's out so I can pirate it and sell it for $3 KIDDING!!!

I guess I have to apologize for hijacking this thread too. Sorry.

Again, no worries!... thank you for posting here.

[Roundabout]

I didn't buy any bootlegs while I was there. I'm pretty much like you, I'm not even morally opposed to obtaining software illegally, I'd just rather buy the real thing because its usually a superior product. Its just when people do pirate software and then make excuses or blame the action on the "industry" that I get offended. People who make these claims are just kidding themselves. If you want to steal something just do it and be satisfied with the fact that you got something for nothing. Don't turn around and bite the hand that fed you...for free. BTW, I'm not at all talking to you Roundabout, I'm just ranting in general, in reference to your post.

Understood, and I agree. I must admit, I did buy some boot discs, but gave them to friends there that could not even afford to think about buying even the boot version of those discs. Morally, right or wrong, hard to say. It's a very tough life there, and people have to survive somehow. Would you believe that a retail job - even working at McDonalds - is a coveted position there? Because they actually pay you when you work. A lot of the coal miners in the eastern part of the country aren't paid for many months, and are forced to go on strike to even get paid at all. They can't quit, because there are no other jobs to go to. Really bad.

As for Hope Now, their website is http://www.hopenow.org.uk/

I'm going to check it out tomorrow.

I can say with complete certainty that every cent donated goes directly to the people who need it.

Very important. I wonder about some charities and just how well they are policed. IMHO, anyone that works for a charity, if they are doing it for the right reasons, should not take a salary. Just my two cents.

I'd have to mail you a copy though since I'm on dial up. Roundabout, I can mail you a copy regardless if you're interested.

Absolutely, love to see it. Send me a PM when you get it finished and I'll give you my address.

I'm going all out on this DVD. Its going to have interactive menu's and features including my best effort at 3D animation. After having done some of the editing already, I can say that there is at least one guaranteed laugh out loud and that the last 5 mins just might make you cry.

I've seen a couple already that had that effect. And I don't cry easily, but some things...

[Roundabout]

The same here, people sleep over the gates of the embassy to save a turn.

The average US citizen has no idea at all about this. Sure, some of them probably don't give a damn, but I feel like many people would be shocked and saddened by how the US government represents itself in certain countries. Obviously, yours is one of them. At least, you can count me as one US citizen that doesn't condone or approve of this, especially taking money (stealing it, really) and not giving a visa. It should be illegal, and they should be ashamed of themselves for doing it.

When I walked along that long line of people waiting for just the hope of visiting my country, freezing in the snow at 6:00 in the morning, I felt an overwhelming sense of sadness for all of them. How many would get a visa? How many would be sent home empty-handed? I wanted to hug all of them and tell them this doesn't represent the average American and how we feel about you. Of course, there was nothing I could do, but wished I could.

Adam wrote

I'm going all out on this DVD. Its going to have interactive menu's and features including my best effort at 3D animation.

Please let me know when it's out so I can pirate it and sell it for $3 KIDDING!!!

As long as you donate the money to charity, I'm sure he wouldn't mind

[joecav]

In a simplistic manner, I equate the war on piracy to the war on drugs. NOTHING is going to stop it if there's $$$ to be made. There will NEVER be an end to drugs and there will never be an end to piracy...end of story.

I could give a rats ass if anyone "backs-up" a DVD or X-Box game. Downloading music...HA!

The truth of the matter is nothing anyone does or says is going to stop piracy. Look at crime in general, everyone knows that if you murder or steal and GET CAUGHT you're going to go to jail...or worse. A rational person would think this would be a deterrant, but in reality the jails are over-flowing with criminals and crime rates grow every year.

Maybe this is how we, as a people, have evolved. I know if I have an opportunity to snag some free songs or get an over-prices operating system for nothing from the net, I am going to do it. I don't justify it, it's just what I do in that situation and how society as a whole has changed. Am I amoral? Am I a criminal? Not in my mind. Now if I ran a DVD-duping ring that made tons of $$$ from other people's work, then I might feel a twinge of guilt. But I don't and I sleep well at night.

To those people in the situation you describe (making $25 a month) my heart really goes out to them. I think I have a bad day at work or my commission check is short $500 and I get pissed. (Thankfully) I have no idea what it's like to live like that and consider myself very fortunate to be where I am today.

[Doramius]

Honestly, I'm thinking next time I'm in the neighborhood of Ecuador, I better have some cash on hand.

as for the piracy I'd shake my finger and say, "Did you know the MPAA and the RIAA kills a cat for every illegal burn or download. Please, think of the kittens." But don't you eat cat down there? I guess that would be the extent of my stopping power. Honestly, If I want to get picky about it, I'd just try and make a movie that looks better in the theater. Honestly, I have movies on DVD that I got to $1 theaters to see re-showings on the big screen. You can schedule a weekday afternoon buy-out for like $250-$500 and invite as many friends as you want to watch some old releases on the big screen and with an excellent audio system. I just saw Disney's "Black Hole" and "Tron" on the Big Screen and as a double feature. I had to chip in $12 for 40+ of us to watch them, but it was so worth it. We got a discount to do the double feature, which was cool too.

[Tiny71]

[quote="Roundabout"]

I wanted to hug all of them and tell them this doesn't represent the average American and how we feel about you. Of course, there was nothing I could do, but wished I could.

If you really felt bad then all you had to do was give them all your money. Simple really...see what gets you to the US faster, a 'hug' or money.

I don't give a crap about others outside the USA. We have problems right here, no need to go around giving handouts and babysitting the other countries.

Just deal with it.


Mr. Smurf: All you really NEED is shelter, food, and clothing. You CAN survive with just those, I never said that one SHOULD though, I know I wouldn't want to. But for the sake of accuracy, the statement is true that anything other than Food, Shelter, and Clothing is mearly a want(luxury)and not a need.

[Craig Tucker]

Baloney: " If it is not food, shelter, or clothing.....its a luxury. "
We're humans, not bears or dung beatles. We have more advanced needs. We are creatures of culture. To deny it is criminal.

My thoughts.

If its not food, shelter or clothing, then it's a "want" not a "need".

We get spoilt. You often hear, oh I need a new car or I need a new TV. No you dont, you want those items. You don't need then to survive.

[thayne]

Baloney: " If it is not food, shelter, or clothing.....its a luxury. "
We're humans, not bears or dung beatles. We have more advanced [/b]needs[/b]. We are creatures of culture. To deny it is criminal.

My thoughts.

If its not food, shelter or clothing, then it's a "want" not a "need".

We get spoilt. You often hear, oh I need a new car or I need a new TV. No you dont, you want those items. You don't need then to survive.

What about women? You can't tell me that's not a need that needs satisfying once in a while 8)

[tweedledee]

What about women? You can't tell me that's not a need that needs satisfying once in a while cool.gif

You want a woman.....You need a Blow up doll $59.95.[/b]

[thayne]

What about women? You can't tell me that's not a need that needs satisfying once in a while cool.gif

You want a woman.....You need a Blow up doll $59.95.[/b]

Naw, I need a Realdoll $5995.00

[gitreel]

I would do abso-*******-lutely nothing to stop piracy. It's not my responsibility or job.