can you "sharpen" MainConcept's encoding??

[msimon7]

hello,
using MainConcept 1.4.2 and really like the quality it produces. lately have been using it for PAL SVCD 4:3 to NTSC DVD 16:9.
one thing i'd like to do, but haven't figured out yet, is to sharpen the output a little. the resulting encoded file has "softened" from the original. almost has gotten a little fuzzy, no sharp edges to the movie.
is this possible to do somehow? if so do you have any tips?
thanks, marc

[Patriots]

Hi.

I have been watching your post looking for an answer as well. I like Mainconcept myself but hate the softness that it produces. I'm still using TMPGENC as it keeps the picture sharp, although the speed at which it encodes is twice as long.

Since Mainconcept has no filter capability or plugins, except for Adobe, I think the only way to sharpen the video is to frameserve from Virtualdub.

I did it the other day using the default sharpen in Virtualdub and 2 other filters from a developers website. As you serve the video from VD, you can apply filters and it will process the sharpen as it is being encoded with Mainconcept.

The only thing is that it adds time to the encoding process. So a 715MB avi video using VD sharpen and frameserve took 4 hours with Mainconcept on my P3 1100mhz PC. I did the same job with TMPGENC and used no extra filters and the job took only an extra 15 minutes longer.

[msimon7]

hello. thanks for the reply. i thought this thread just died. was hoping for some ideas, so i really appreciate your reply.
there are lots of "how to's" on how to use virtualDub (haven't tried it myself yet, but plan to), was wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing some of your settings that you used to sharpen up the video. i'd really appreciate it. thanks again for the reply

if anyone else out there has any suggestions, we're all ears....!
thanks

[tygrus2000]

If you sharpen the video, you are going to end up with Interlacing Flicker. In fact most times some blur is added to overcome this. The only way I have found to sharpen my output was to switch to Procoder.

[Patriots]

I just did a 720x272 movie with VDUb and Mainconcept and it didn't add any flicker.

There is the default sharpen filter built in and you can use filters from here
http://neuron2.net/ for Vdub. One of these filters actually sharpens only the important lines and actually reduces noise in the video by default.

Try it. Some things work for others and vice versa. TMPGENC doesn't need anything, comes clear and crisp. You'll only need more encoding time.

[msimon7]

thanks guys for your replies. i'm going to run some tests to see what kind of results different filters/apps get me. main reason i posted was to get some help starting out on how to do what i wanted.
as far as time goes, i've been mainly using VBR 2-pass in mainconcept so that has greatly increased the time to encode. but still has the soft/blurry outcome. hence the quest for filters

tygrus2000, i also just tried procoder 2.0 yesterday for the first time. like the interface and the options/filters. i only ran 1 pass VBR and the estimated time to encode plus sharpen filter + crop was 24 hours. normally would use 2-pass, but it seemed like that would take forever. and this was only a 90 minute video. how are your times on your encodes? also where do you apply your filter at? source or target. seems you have the choice of both (of course i discovered this after it had been running for hours)

Patriots, what do you think of your output comparison between MC with VD filter and Tmpeg? seems that since 2-pass + filter in MC will take almost as long as tmpeg, time is not much of a factor anymore.

any sharpen tips for MC or procode or tmpeg are always appreciated!

[adam]

Patriots I don't think a 720x272 source can support interlacing. That would explain the lack of any interlace flicker.

Careful with sharpening filters, they work pretty artificially and yes they can cause interlace flicker. They don't actually sharpen anything, they just insert white pixels anywhere that a black pixel meets another pixel that is X shades lighter then black. This gives more contrast to the edge of that black, which makes a more distinct outline. The problem though is that you often get a long line of these single white pixels on any straight edge, and that will cause interlace flicker sometimes. A little bit of sharpening is ok, and more is often necessary for already soft video. But I personally wouldn't recommend using a sharpen filter to offset an encoder's blurring of the image. You just loose too much. Sharpened video acquires a strange look to it, well from my experience. You can really notice the white pixels once you start looking. Everything sort of has that Photoshop outer glow look to it. And you can also get alot of stray white pixels that look like mosquito noise...only white.

I've never used MainConcept so I can't comment on how it may blur the image. But if it does do this, and can't be changed, then I simply wouldn't use it.

[Patriots]

Well TMPGENC really offers you the opportunity to tweak everything with a simple interface, no need for cropping and scale to keep original aspect ratio, it has filters and ability to use Lame MP2 and MP3 as external encoders. Everything I have put into it, even out of normal spec output formats like 720x272 svcd's, are great. The sharpness is superb without filters. You can cut mpeg2, encode part of a source and mux and demux with it. Again a 50 min avi to mpeg2 takes a little over 4 hours for me on a VBR 2-pass, and that's having it save the first pass to cache to have the second go faster.

Mainconcept is good too but I'm finding it a hassle to always mess with crop and scale so it is not stretching the output too much. I wanted to do a 640x480 xsvcd instead of a 480x480 svcd and it had to keep adjusting crop and scale and then the audio was out of sync halfway thru. TMPGENC had no problems.

l
Did you look at those filters and the explanation on how they work for Vdub? The default filter already in Vdub did fine for me, but of course it's not as natural as TMPGENC's regular encode.

[adam]

TMPGenc is a great encoder, but I can also appreciate the desire for faster encoding. I gave up on TMPGEnc a long time ago due to its speed limitations. Of course if you have to run slooow filters to get your faster encoder working properly, then that kinda defeats the purpose.

I've used Vdub's default sharpen filter but I prefer the good old unsharp avisynth filter. I've never used that Msharp filter but it still works as all other sharpen filters do, it just attempts to do so intelligently to minimize the sharpening of noise. If Donald Graft made it I'm sure it works fantastically. But the same general rules apply I think. If your source is soft to begin with then you should consider sharpening it. But if your source is already adequate then using a method that softens the picture, and then fighting this with a sharpen filter is a poor decision. No filter can ever perfectly restore lost information, and sharpen filters in particular decrease compressibility quite a lot. (total contrast wherever those white pixels are added, that requires substantially more bitrate).

[tygrus2000]

msimon, my encode times are long but not that long. On my 1.5 ghz machine, an hour video usually takes maybe 12 -14 hours. On my P4 Dell notbook 2.8 ghz, its about half that long.

I dont do regular encodes so time is not an issue to me. I am only concerned about the one final encode of my video project which i will only have to do one time.

Be careful about sharpness. Film isnt as sharp as video and we all love that look. Super sharpness is not everything. It can make your final output look like a Reality Tv show and kinda cheesy. I much prefer the dreamy effects of film.

[lordsmurf]

I try to not use MC because of this very fact. Only on a rare occasion does Procoder upchuck or freeze on a Premiere export, forcing my hand on the MC encoder.

I prefer clean video. Soft, sharp, in between ... don't care. Just needs to be clean. Most source isn't that sharp anyway.

Look at some proc amps (actually, just "detailers") if you want to augment video in hardware (and not loose time from software). The Vidicraft unit I just picked up works pretty well.

[Patriots]

Nice thread guys .

I'ts amazing how with all the encoders out there, each one has one thing about it that keeps us trying new ones.

I'll tell you for a $150 program {Mainconcept), my Uncle bought it for his Networking business and no longer uses it, I'm not really that happy with the output. Good thing I burned to CDRW first to test the final product.

I did try CCE basic last week, but for a 3 minute trial per encode, it's hard to get an idea of what a real movie will be like after a full encode.

[pchan]

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EDIT
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Sorry ! You have already tried TMPEGenc.

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Patriots, Not sure if you have tried TMPGenc. Based on what gather from your computer detail, you can burn VCD or SVCD. For VCD format, you can get free version from here http://www.tmpgenc.net/e_main.html. I often find that TMPEGenc produce better VCD video than any other encoders. CCE included.

[SatStorm]

My PAL tests with mainconcept show me that it smooths a lot any source, to the point that looks somehow blured compared the picture of TMPGenc and CCE. This is even worst with NTSC (few tests I did, since I don't have plenty NTSC stuff to play with...)

I don't know a good solution for this yet. I suspect that the future realises of mainconcept gonna have a sharp adjustment or something. (Or to put it better, I hope so...).

Currently, I use mainconcept 1.4.2 only for realtime mpeg 2 captures. For the rest, I'm still using that slow programs someone called it "TMPGEnc plus".

[msimon7]

i've been playing with Canopus Procoder and using their sharpen filter and the results have been very nice. the encoding times when using any filters dramatically increase, but at least the output is a lot better, which is whole point of this anyway...
i also hope that mainconcept include a sharpening filter/mask in their next release (or at least change how they encode so it does not soften/blur the video it's processing).