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  1. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    tomshardware.com says a lot of ridiculous/misguided things.

    However, I don't see where this is written clear cut that anything is a "winner" ... can you quote it out? I seem to have missed it.
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  2. I assume you mean the Speed race? I will say that is correct but overall install base and media availability. DVD-R can still edge out +R. +R is almost non-exsistent in Asia. My personal opinion Dual Format won the race.

    RG
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  3. Member giantsmurf's Avatar
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    I was just wondering RAAGAAman where in Asia you mean. I just spent the last 2 years in Taiwan and I can tell you that +R is everywhere.
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  4. Tom's Hardware Guide is an excellent site giving excellent reviews on product with back up of evidence, so they dont say ridiculous things lordsmurf
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    Tom's Hardware lost their credibility years ago. They are trying to regain it through quantity, not quality. If you want media compatibility the clear winner still is DVD-Rs, with 93% compared to 88%. See the DVD section at left.
    Hello.
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  6. That quotation is completely taken out of context.

    It states that the DVD Alliance (+) has won "the race" in commercially bringing out dual layer recorders.

    I wonder Sam Ontario in whether you are being deliberately inflammatory??

    If this thread turns out into another + vs - flame fest, I will lock it.

    Regards.
    Michael Tam
    w: Morsels of Evidence
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  7. Member ViRaL1's Avatar
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    Just wait til 16x Dual Layer DVD*R/RW comes out. You'll all be sad and wishing you hadn't bought new burners!
    Nothing can stop me now, 'cause I don't care anymore.
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  8. Member
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    Originally Posted by vitualis
    That quotation is completely taken out of context.

    It states that the DVD Alliance (+) has won "the race" in commercially bringing out dual layer recorders.

    I wonder Sam Ontario in whether you are being deliberately inflammatory??

    If this thread turns out into another + vs - flame fest, I will lock it.

    Regards.
    I was just post it see what others think about it. If this offends anybody, my apology and I will not response any more to this thread. If you feel necessary, lock it as you wish.
    Sam Ontario
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  9. Originally Posted by Sam Ontario
    Originally Posted by vitualis
    That quotation is completely taken out of context.

    It states that the DVD Alliance (+) has won "the race" in commercially bringing out dual layer recorders.

    I wonder Sam Ontario in whether you are being deliberately inflammatory??

    If this thread turns out into another + vs - flame fest, I will lock it.

    Regards.
    I was just post it see what others think about it. If this offends anybody, my apology and I will not response any more to this thread. If you feel necessary, lock it as you wish.
    I don't think you meant anything by it. In the past, arguments have raged about which format was "better" than the other. Threads were totally out of control. You might be able to find it with a search. There havn't been many wars lately, probably due to the advent of all the dual format drives.
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  10. Banned
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    Its not the writer format what counts, but sales figures of blanks.
    I.e. I always have a +/-/RAM writers for past 2+ years - and that means a squat for + format since I try to avoid them any way I can and + format was just 'shoved down my throat' because it came with my writer(s) and I had no chance of buying a writer I wanted without being forced to get it with this sick format.

    If you were to check what is the ratio of -R compared to +R at the large and inexpensive stores, where they sell both -/+ kinds, from various manufacturers, you'll know that -R outsells +R like 3:1
    That is what I call a winner.
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  11. The Old One SatStorm's Avatar
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    Basicly.... Who cares!

    Personally I use DVD-R from T.Y. (and only T.Y.)
    And since T.Y. don't have any DVD-RW, I don't use rewritables.

    The plus discs finally catch up (if not cheaper) the dash discs. So, price is not an issue today as it was a year ago in Europe.
    Personally, I keep using DVD-Rs. No problems till today, no reason to change.

    I read from various sources that the big ones hate dash discs, 'cause are more difficult and expencive to manufacture. Plus discs are easier and cheaper ones. And that makes me wonder: Cheaper to manufacture means what? So I keep using dash...

    Tom's hardware is not what it used to be 5 years ago.
    Also, a general internet rule: When you see big ones sponsor a site, think twice about the reviews it offers. You don't bite the hand that feeds you...
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  12. Get Slack disturbed1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SatStorm
    I read from various sources that the big ones hate dash discs, 'cause are more difficult and expencive to manufacture. Plus discs are easier and cheaper ones. And that makes me wonder: Cheaper to manufacture means what?
    DASH R has a higher licesning fee, and more depending tests and certification process.

    PLUS R has a cheaper licensing fee, not sure about the testing and certification procedure, but they do tend to hand a new certification out left and right.
    Linux _is_ user-friendly. It is not ignorant-friendly and idiot-friendly.
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  13. Member
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    Originally Posted by vitualis
    That quotation is completely taken out of context.

    It states that the DVD Alliance (+) has won "the race" in commercially bringing out dual layer recorders.

    I wonder Sam Ontario in whether you are being deliberately inflammatory??

    If this thread turns out into another + vs - flame fest, I will lock it.

    Regards.
    I thought I was not going to respond to any of the responses.

    Quote:
    Just as with improvements in speed, it is the format "+" that comes out the winner. That is mainly due to the number of manufacturers involved in the DVD+RW alliance. Thus, Pioneer has been almost alone in creating the products and requiring validation from the DVD Forum.
    Unquote

    To me, this seems to say that Pioneer is the only "-" struggling perhaps trying to catchup to DVD Forum, and the rest of the "-" have already given up. Again I maybe a bit presumptious and wrong from what I read. But I heard nothing since the "+" has announced faster speeds and DL "+R", and then they all happened and apparently nothing, no responses from the "-" camp. Have they really given up on "-"? It will be interested to know any latest development from the "-", if such a topic will lead to something.

    This is the phenomenon I observed recently (from an ivory tower of point of view, maybe):
    There are now many brands of 4x DVD+RW discs available on shelves and very difficult to find a 4x DVD-RW on shelves on major store chains. There are only a few brands 2x DVD-RW available in small quantities. +/- "R" same price and roughly same quantities.

    It was a different story 3 months ago.

    I hope the above have answered most of those concern about this topic.

    The discussion is so far rational, informative, an update of the present "+" and "-" of the present situation. Maybe people have learnt from the past and better educated and restrained after so many flammatory and inflamatory threads on similar titles. At this stage, with such a response from a moderator, is'nt it a bit over-reacting with only a few replys?
    Sam Ontario
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  14. Originally Posted by Sam Ontario

    Quote:
    Just as with improvements in speed, it is the format "+" that comes out the winner. That is mainly due to the number of manufacturers involved in the DVD+RW alliance. Thus, Pioneer has been almost alone in creating the products and requiring validation from the DVD Forum.
    Unquote

    To me, this seems to say that Pioneer is the only "-" struggling perhaps trying to catchup to DVD Forum, and the rest of the "-" have already given up. Again I maybe a bit presumptious and wrong from what I read. But I heard nothing since the "+" has announced faster speeds and DL "+R", and then they all happened and apparently nothing, no responses from the "-" camp. Have they really given up on "-"? It will be interested to know any latest development from the "-", if such a topic will lead to something.
    Again, the context is important. When THG states that "+" comes out the winner, it is saying that it released the DL burners first. It is not saying that the "+" format is the "overall winner", if there is such a thing, over the "-" format.

    As for responses from the "-" side of things, DL "-" drives and media are well in development and more than likely be released soon. It is important to note that the DL "+" drives have really been released AHEAD of the availability of DL media and good DL burning and authoring software. Furthermore, the compatibility of DL "+" media from the limited reports that are out is not that good... It probably isn't due to any intrinsic limitations, rather it is released early in its development cycle.

    This is the phenomenon I observed recently (from an ivory tower of point of view, maybe):
    There are now many brands of 4x DVD+RW discs available on shelves and very difficult to find a 4x DVD-RW on shelves on major store chains. There are only a few brands 2x DVD-RW available in small quantities. +/- "R" same price and roughly same quantities.
    Well, where I live there are limited quantities of both +RW and -RW media as these are both rarely used.

    There is a plethora of both +R and -R (i.e., once write) media.

    If you ask around on the forums, the vast majority of drives now are dual-format burners. Most people seem to prefer -R discs for video projects.

    BTW: at present, I personally use DVD+R media (as where I live, Verbatim DataLife Plus DVD+R 8x media in jewel cases are readily available and relatively cheap... )

    Regards.
    Michael Tam
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  15. Member
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    Originally Posted by vitualis

    Again, the context is important. When THG states that "+" comes out the winner, it is saying that it released the DL burners first. It is not saying that the "+" format is the "overall winner", if there is such a thing, over the "-" format.

    ........
    Regards.
    This topic started in "DVD Writer" Forum and I believe the context matched, of course I am ready to see opinions otherwise.
    Sam Ontario
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  16. Well, there's only one race that's important to us and that's the compatability one. The winner is the format that will play in all of our DVD players. Since the "+"'s don't play in ANY of our machines and the "-"'s play in all of them, I couldn't care less if they come out with 100X "+" burners. They ain't finding their way into our offices.

    Roberta
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  17. Member
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    Just curious to know how long ago that had you tried a "+" disc recording that didn't play in DVD players (old ones, new ones), last year? Yes, 18 months ago, I received a "+" that did not play at on two of my old version DVD players.

    For your reference, I had recently, recorded a few home made videos to relatives with some quality brand 4x "-" discs that they said they did not play with some of their DVD players. They all played fine with my DVD players before I sent them off.

    Don't get me wrong, I am a consumer and I still use "-" to burn my DVD home made movies, but I do tend to buy less "-" with same price same DVD quality. I stop buying any DVD-RWs, they are slower and more expensive.
    Sam Ontario
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  18. Banned
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    Why would anyone want to try *again* something that wasn't working at first try?
    Sam Ontario - give me any REAL advantages of "+" over "-" format and I'll eat my -R/RW blanks and switch to "+" blanks
    But seriously - what is your REAL advantage of using + over - ?Some hypopthetical +DL disc that is almost coming to the store nearby me (I hear it for 3 or 4 months already)? Or is it the 8X speed - fast, but incompatible with many players +R?
    Since begining of this format wars I always heard same aruments: +R are 10% faster (2.4x vs 2x) - like that minute or so of faster burning would really count anywhere LOL, I always said I'd rather burn my disc even 5 minutes longer but have it playable anywhere, and if I ever need quantity (when burning speed would be a factor) I'd just go order small batch of silverpressed and nicely printed discs at any local studio...
    Later it was 4X speed that +R was first at, next was 8X. Now the DL.
    Everything is faster with them +R, yet any given store selling both format medias still sell more of -R, doesnt it tell you what people prefer? Who cares whar Alliance or Consortium says - market already gave an opinion and pointed out clear winner.
    And your example of Pioneer as the only "struggling" -R maker is really funny. I have few writers, all of them are dual or triple format - yet it should mean nothing for +R Alliance since I use only -R/RW media, and so are most of other people. FYI had Pioneer made some -R/-RAM writer I would have probably chose it over my current favorite LG writers with their +R/-R/-RAM triple formats.
    Just because most of writers are dual format means only that manufacturers unusually give us a choice. Which format is a winner - check how many blanks of each are sold in your area.
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  19. Here in the UK/United Kingdom, the -R/RW outsells the +R/RW counterpart.

    More people prefer -R to +R due to compatibility although both are identical in price (e.g. 25 DVD-/+R for 4.00 English Pounds Sterling)

    Numerous English/British websites have reported -R to sell more than the +R format.
    For Queen and Country!!!
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  20. Originally Posted by DereX888
    Sam Ontario - give me any REAL advantages of "+" over "-" format and I'll eat my -R/RW blanks and switch to "+" blanks .
    Just wait and see and I think you might eat your words instead of the + media

    If you don't eat your words, then hopefully the medis won't be too harsh to your stomach
    It's time to kick some butts, and presto ( if you know what I mean )
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  21. Get Slack disturbed1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by US Guy
    Originally Posted by DereX888
    Sam Ontario - give me any REAL advantages of "+" over "-" format and I'll eat my -R/RW blanks and switch to "+" blanks .
    Just wait and see and I think you might eat your words instead of the + media

    If you don't eat your words, then hopefully the medis won't be too harsh to your stomach
    I was first told that in 2001. Three years later, it's the same thing, do you have any clue as to how long we should wait and see?

    Of course by the time this is settled, I for one, will have moved on to blue ray, so I could really give a ratt's ass about it.
    Linux _is_ user-friendly. It is not ignorant-friendly and idiot-friendly.
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  22. Member Roderz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SuperSaiyanZero
    More people prefer -R to +R due to compatibility although both are identical in price (e.g. 25 DVD-/+R for 4.00 English Pounds Sterling)
    Where are you getting 25 blanks @ 4
    and what make are they?
    Cheepest I can get quality media is about 9 for 25.
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  23. Member Marvingj's Avatar
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    Will we ever no the truth about the + & -?
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  24. Member
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    Originally Posted by DereX888
    Why would anyone want to try *again* something that wasn't working at first try?
    Sam Ontario - give me any REAL advantages of "+" over "-" format and I'll eat my -R/RW blanks and switch to "+" blanks
    But seriously - what is your REAL advantage of using + over - ?Some hypopthetical +DL disc that is almost coming to the store nearby me (I hear it for 3 or 4 months already)? Or is it the 8X speed - fast, but incompatible with many players +R?

    Which format is a winner - check how many blanks of each are sold in your area.
    At this moment, the real advantage is, I have the 4x DVD+RW cheaper than 2x DVD-RW. Instead of burning 30 minutes a full disc with 2x -RW, now it only takes about 15 minutes on my LG GSA4082B with a 4x DVD+RW disc. Its just personal preference and economic choices. If in future my area 4x DVD-RW are available with less price, I might change back to DVD-RW.

    Quality wise and compatibility wise, I don't see a difference whether it -R or +R. There bound to be some DVD players not compatible. If my relatives said if my -R disc is not compatible with their DVD player, I will send them a +R disc, or vice versa.

    It is obvious to me in my area, Burners are faster with the "+", rewrite discs are faster with the "+" (4x against 2x with same price or 4x +RW is cheaper than 2x -RW), and for the write once, they are same priced with same brand same speed. In the long run, if "-" is incapable of catch up in media speed (mainly the rewrite) and burner speed, it is destined doom.

    Of course, your mileage may vary.
    Sam Ontario
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  25. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    A 4x DVD-R and 4x DVD+R write the same speed. Neither is faster.
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  26. I'm a Super Moderator johns0's Avatar
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    Who cares which one is better,i use + or - r depending on which gives me the best results and dont hold any allegiance to any manufactorer for any product,they only care about the profit.
    I think,therefore i am a hamster.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    A 4x DVD-R and 4x DVD+R write the same speed. Neither is faster.
    Yes for the same 4x and at this moment, IMO, "+" or "-" 4x discs are equally compatible.

    What I meant is available 16X or 12X "+" burners are faster than available "-" burners which are at best only 8x now. In the long run 16x "+" media prices will come down to almost same price as "-" 8x media. 16x "+" burner prices will also come down comparable with existing 8x +/- burners. Then people tend to choose faster speeds, given equal compatibility.
    Sam Ontario
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    Originally Posted by disturbed1

    Of course by the time this is settled, I for one, will have moved on to blue ray, so I could really give a ratt's ass about it.
    I guess blue ray would only fly off if it were supported by the movie industry for HD and were backward compatible with the existing DVD players. Just wait and see.
    Sam Ontario
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  29. Originally Posted by vitualis
    That quotation is completely taken out of context.

    It states that the DVD Alliance (+) has won "the race" in commercially bringing out dual layer recorders.

    I wonder Sam Ontario in whether you are being deliberately inflammatory??

    If this thread turns out into another + vs - flame fest, I will lock it.

    Regards.
    Hell, some of those format debates were the best ever. :P Well worth the rare occasion a thread went berserk.

    Dash and Plus cost about the same here. My old Apex doesn't like plus, so I get dash, so yeah, compatibility is a consideration. Don't give a crap otherwise.

    I too am waiting for Blu-Ray, that or something equivalent will be necessary for resolutions greater than 720x480/576. Might as well skip DL, in the meantime I'm gunna get my money's worth with my present burner.
    Pull! Bang! Darn!
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