DMR-E50 time base correction

[jmr2004]

How effective is the input TBC circuitry in the Panasonic DMR-E50 recorder?

I had planned to get a SIMA SCC for macro removal/jitter problems from VHS....but will the Panasonic handle it on it's own?

THANKS

[Scobo]

I can't speak for the DMR-E50 as I have a Philips DVDR75 but this machine does a great job of VHS-DVD transfer.
I'm not even sure if it has TBC in-built but it converted an old tape I was having real trouble with perfectly.
The tape is about 10 years old and badly worn. I tried to capture it to my PC with an analogue capture card but was dropping frames left right and centre. The DVDR75 had no trouble with it at all and I can't tell the difference between the tape and the DVD copy.

[ejai]

I own the Sima and the Panasonic e50. I ran into the same problem and found the Panasonic's TBC a great tool. In most cases it stops the jitters and the filtering cleans up the video.

I am not a fan of Sima products especially the SCC, I found it created more noise than was even on the video. I've tried to use both the Sima and the Panasonic on some tapes and it worst, once I unplugged the SCC and went straight to the E50 the video became more stable.

The Sima has never in my opinion stop jitters, but the E50 has.

[jmr2004]

Great!

Sounds like it does a pretty consistent job?

Are you happy with your E50? I just rcvd one yesterday and so far haven't used it...(waiting for a modulator to drive ch3 on a crap TV so I can monitor it).

Looks like a good performer...smooth transport....runs pretty cool.

Any hints I should know about so I don't have to learn the hard way? Looks like it functions just like a standalone CD recorder...pick a speed, record and finalize.

I assume the input TBC "sees" all the input connections whether its svideo or composite....right?

Looking forward to this....I have a shitload of VHS tapes.

One other thing....when you record more than one show on a tape, does a main menu automatically appear on the finished DVD? (Or do you just use the remote to move between titles?)

THANKS

[ejai]

The Panasonic E50 is a solid dvd recorder and a good performer. You will love this machine just like I have for at least a year now. I must admit that I have purchased a JVC M10SL because it has better picture quality than the E50. Don't get me wrong the E50 is no toy it has very good picture quality but the JVC is top of the line so far when you speak of picture quality (my opinion).

My only gripe about the JVC might be the lack of a built in TBC. With the Panasonic you will have perfect synced up recordings with no need for any external TBC unit.

As for different recordings on a disk I do believe you can name each seperate video clip and move from one to the other with ease. I don't have my unit in operation at this moment due to the fact I am still playing around with the JVC.

Enjoy your Pana, let us know what you think of it.

[gshelley61]

My only gripe about the JVC might be the lack of a built in TBC. With the Panasonic you will have perfect synced up recordings with no need for any external TBC unit.

Actually, the JVC does have a TBC. And you probably would need a standalone TBC for the Panasonic or any DVD recorder if you want to capture very poor quality or copy-protected commercial tapes. None of the TBC's built in to DVD recorders or S-VHS VCR's are robust enough to defeat Macrovision or deal with really screwed up tapes.

Here's the DR-M10 list of features from the JVC UK web site (it's more thorough than the US site):

• Playable Formats: DVD-Video, DVD-RAM, DVD-RW, DVD-R, CD, SVCD, VCD, CD-R/RW, MP3/JPEG Digital Still (CD-R/RW)
• Recordable Formats: DVD-RAM, DVD-RW (VR and Video Formats), DVD-R
• PAL Progressive Compatibility
• Motion Active Progressive Scan Output (for Video Source)
• Digital Direct Progressive Scan Output (for Film Source)
• Super MPEG Encode Pre-Processor: Time Base Corrector, Frame Synchroniser and Motion Active Noise Reduction
• Super MPEG Post-Processor: Block Noise Reduction Circuit, Colour DigiPure and Hadamard Noise Reduction System
• 8-Hour DVD Recording
• Library Database DVD Navigation
• DVD Navigation with Animated Thumbnail (DVD-RAM/DVD-RW VR Format)
• On-Disc Timer Programming (DVD-RAM/DVD-RW VR Format)
• Live Memory (Simultaneous Recording Playback) (DVD-RAM)
• Instant Replay, Quick Skip, Live Check
• i.LINK Connection (DV Input)
• 'Undo Finalisation' Capability (DVD-RW)
• I (PAL) Tuner
• NICAM Stereo Decoder
• Linear PCM Audio Recording (XP Mode Only)
• 192kHz/24-bit Audio D/A Converter
• 10-bit/54MHz Video D/A Converter
• Video Plus+ Deluxe
• Auto PDC
• T-V Link
• High-Resolution GUI (10 Languages)
• NTSC Playback on PAL TV
OtherFeatures
Audio
• Dolby Digital/DTS/MPEG Digital Output
• Virtual Surround
Video
• Auto 16:9 Recording Playback
• Variable Search and Slow
• Natural Reverse Playback (-1x)
• Resume Function (30-Disc/Bookmark)
General
• 1-Month/8-Programme Timer
• Rec Link
• Auto Set
• 99-Channel Frequency SynthesisedI Tuner with Hyperband
• Power Save Mode
• Permanent Programme Memory
• 60-Min. Power Backup
• Multi-Brand TV/DVD/Satellite Compatible Remote Control
Connections
• Dual SCART Connectors with Satellite/PDC Compatibility
• Front AV Input
• Video Outputs: Component and S-Video
• Audio Analogue Outputs: Front L/R
• Audio Digital Output: Optical and Coaxial

[ejai]

I stand corrected, on the U.S. sites I find it hard to find anything written showing a TBC for the JVC. If the JVC does have one then it isn't very good because the Panasonic recorder syncing is never a problem from my experience.

My E30 and E50 have never presented any sync problem no matter how old the tapes were. I've made at least 200 dvds using both Panasonic recorders. The E50 has always worked well for me, the reason I switched is becasue as Lordsmurf stated the quality of the video beats most recorders on the market.

My sync issues were due to Direct TV, but since I hooked up an external TBC the problem has gone away. This tells me that if the JVC has a TBC its not worth anything. The picture quality is outstanding but they need a TBC that is on par with the Panasonic brand.

[gshelley61]

Easily could be true. TBC's vary quite a bit. I own an E50 as well, and have not had any problems with it either. I'll have to dig out an older, challenging VHS tape to compare. One of these days I'm going to break down and get a real good standalone TBC/Frame Sync anyway.

[ejai]

I must admit the TBC 1000 not only fixed the sync issues I had but enhanced the picture even more. The JVC captures are more cleaner than before (if you can believe it could get any better). The sharpness is still there and the dark areas are even more smoother.

I am not using it on tape captures only on DTV. 8)

[ejai]

Can someone tell me where in the manual does it say anything about a TBC. I looked in the specifications section and I still don't see any mention about a TBC on the JVC m10sL.

I know its shown on some websites but I don't see it indicated on the manual or on the JVC website. If someone knows where please guide me to it.

[jmr2004]

Dissapointing that the E50 will pass macrovision....even the simpler forms of it?

I'm going to start doing some dubbing later and see.

I went this route because the capture card and PC method had so much conflicting info, I got fed up.

I'll see what happens...I was hoping to avoid using a Sima but may have to?

I see the SCC for 88 bucks at Amazon......what's the difference between it and the SCC-2, I wonder?

[gshelley61]

Here's the press release for DR-M10 (JVC Australia web site):
http://www.jvc-australia.com/news/_press-releases_details.asp?ID=80

DR-M10 product page from the JVC UK web site:
http://www.jvc.co.uk/product.php?id=DR-M10SEK&eshop=&catid=18&PHPSESSID=579cbb475a7447...5f756dc71eae7e

DR-M10S product page from JVC Canada web site:
http://www.jvc.ca/en/consumer/product-detail.asp?model=DR-M10S

Good Guys product page:
http://www.goodguys.com/adtemplate.asp?invky=168881&catky=733455

1-877-Camcorder product page:
http://www.1-877camcorder.com/drm10sl.html

All these sources reference the TBC as well as the other pre and post processing circuits.

[rjack1]

I can't speak for the DMR-E50 as I have a Philips DVDR75 but this machine does a great job of VHS-DVD transfer.
I'm not even sure if it has TBC in-built but it converted an old tape I was having real trouble with perfectly.
The tape is about 10 years old and badly worn. I tried to capture it to my PC with an analogue capture card but was dropping frames left right and centre. The DVDR75 had no trouble with it at all and I can't tell the difference between the tape and the DVD copy.

The Panasonic has an excellent time base corrector that actually works.
The Phillips dvdr/75 model does not include a time base corrector.
I have both machines and the Panasonic does an excellent job stabilizing the picture when transferring from vhs analog to dvd digital.

[vcdforme]

The TBC in the Panasonic RULES!!!
In fact, it's the main reason I bought it.
I pass my signal thru it, and go to computer instead of
using the Panny the burn the disc. It's a lifesaver.

If you want to burn copyprotected material on the Panny,
you must use a defeater like a Sima, or something equivalent.

Also, I just got my Lite-On LVW5005.
Also has a TBC in it. The picture on this machine is even
better than the Panny, and almost 1/2 the price.
Loaded, and I mean LOADED with features!

the 4 hour setting on the Panasonic sucks.
the Lite-on looks excellent!

cheers.

[ejai]

Here's the press release for DR-M10 (JVC Australia web site):
http://www.jvc-australia.com/news/_press-releases_details.asp?ID=80

DR-M10 product page from the JVC UK web site:
http://www.jvc.co.uk/product.php?id=DR-M10SEK&eshop=&catid=18&PHPSESSID=579cbb475a7447...5f756dc71eae7e

DR-M10S product page from JVC Canada web site:
http://www.jvc.ca/en/consumer/product-detail.asp?model=DR-M10S

Good Guys product page:
http://www.goodguys.com/adtemplate.asp?invky=168881&catky=733455

1-877-Camcorder product page:
http://www.1-877camcorder.com/drm10sl.html

All these sources reference the TBC as well as the other pre and post processing circuits.

Thanks for the links, if there is a TBC in this unit and I believe there is, it has to be extremely weak. If Direct TV programs are out of sync then how can this recorder work that much better with tapes.

I have overcome the problem using an external TBC but I do feel a bit dissapointed that the JVC was not able to handle such a small task. I haven't ran into sync issues since creating VCDs using my computer. I still like this recorder, but I am hesitant to recommend it now without telling the purchaser to get an external TBC first. Most people will not want to hear that.

[tag]

Admittedly, I'm a newb when it comes to the technical aspects of how this kind of stuff works, exactly. However, nothing I've read about TBCs has ever indicated they were useful in restoring audio sync.

Rather, the definitions (below) indicate that the primary purpose of TBCs is to reduce jitter, stabilize images, ameliorate problems with video sync pulses, etc. How, precisely, does a TBC address A/V sync issues? Just curious, really, since I have experienced absolutely zero sync anomalies with my M10S transfers.

Time Base Corrector. An electronic device with memory and clocking circuits to correct video signal timing errors which affect image stability and color.

TBC (Time Base Corrector): A device used to rectify any problems with a video signal's sync pulses by generating a new clean time base and synchronizing* any other incoming video to this reference.

From Lordsmurf's site: TBC is a shorthand name for a Time Base Corrector, a device that adjusts the signal for proper playback, often seen as "cleaning" the video.......I cannot survive without my DataVideo TBC-1000, as it vertically corrects the video and synchs frames, preventing almost all vertical bouncing or jittering in the image.

From Videohelp.com : Time Base Corrector
A hardware device used to remove or mask variations in the video synchronizing signals, which can result in "skewing" and other distortions in the video image generated by unavoidable mechanical inaccuracies in helical scan recorders. This is accomplished by automatically delaying the video signal so that each line starts at the proper time. In capturing a TBC is used to 'clean up' analog tape problems and may assist in the capture of old VHS tapes when used between a VCR and capture card.

[lordsmurf]

You are correct. A TBC will not fix sync. But it can fix the video from dropping frames and other nasty errors. Dropped frames are the evil cause of audio drift many times. If you have ever used MC 1.4 with bad settings, you'll have seen it very exaggerated. Essentially, you're cleaning or correcting the video signal so the encoder chips won't choke and lose sync. If the video signal was fine, and the encoder acted perfect, and there was still a sync error, it could not be corrected in this method.

If this is what ejai is experiencing, I suggest he look at his DTV receiver carefully. I know Hughes receivers really suck at decoding a quality analog signal for output.

The TBC in the DVD recorders is not very good. The Panasonic and JVC machines may as well not even have one. They're not much better than a SIMA SED-CM, which is mostly just a weak/mild video processor, not even a TBC by truest definition.

The LiteOn 5005 has no TBC. It is just a 5001 with a fan and 411s firmware on the 401s/411s drive. There is nothing in that machine besides the LSI encoder chips and the standard motherboard. The LiteOn 4-hour is okay, but it suffers from CVBR (LiteOn firmware limitation), something not seen on most other LSI chipsets using true VBR.

In all honestly, the LSI DiMeNsion 860x chips do more than any of the poor TBCs in those units. The JVC DNR pre-processors and anti-block tech are the reasons the JVC recorder is so nice.

Put a really bad tape against any of those recorder TBCs and it'll choke. They were made weak on purpose, mostly to let MV and other anti-copy still exist. A real full-frame TBC (or even a good partial like the JVC SVHS machines) will not do this. The weak recorder ones are mainly good for fixing errors created by plain VHS VCRs (not even tape errors, VCR mess).

[ejai]

A TBC does work with syncing audio and video. The Datavideo TBC 1000 strips the timing info from the video source and generates new timing instructions. This device has not only video inputs but audio as well.

From what I've read it helps keep the audio and video in sync becasue it creates a different clock than what is originally stored for that A/V stream. All I know is that the TBC on the Panasonic speaks for itself, I've never had one single problem with sync. Now that I'm using the TBC 1000 and I no longer have a sync issue with the JVC.

Lordsmurf also has posted that he has other devices hooked up to his recorders, I'm not sure exactly what he is using his for. A TBC will not always keep video in sync in all cases, but it is helpful. 8)

[lordsmurf]

JVC 9800 -> TBC-1000 -> JVC DRM10S
JVC 3800 -> Sima SED-CM -> LiteOn 5001

Soon to be
JVC 3800 -> AVT-8710 -> LiteOn 5001
if I can save up the cash for it.

[ejai]

JVC 9800 -> TBC-1000 -> JVC DRM10S
JVC 3800 -> Sima SED-CM -> LiteOn 5001

Soon to be
JVC 3800 -> AVT-8710 -> LiteOn 5001
if I can save up the cash for it.

Excellent! That sounds like my my hookup now (a little bit).

I have the AVT-8710 and it is a dream I use it between the VHS and JVC. You will love it, especially the TBC and video enhancement controls in a unit that can fit in the palm of your hands. I have noticed that the TBC on the TBC-1000 is more powerful than the one on the AVT-8710 but they both do the job well.

If I had to choose one I would take the AVT-8710.