Newbie question about VHS capture sources!

[NamPla]

This may sound silly, but... When dealing with VHS capturing, do all I need to know is PAL VHS is 25fps and NTSC VHS is 29.97fps?? Is there such a thing as a 23.97fps NTSC VHS tape? Or is that framerate just when downloading avi's? I'm a bit confused. How would I know if one of my NTSC tapes is 30fps, 29.97fps, 24fps or 23.97fps?? Sorry if this is dumb question.

Thanks.

[flaninacupboard]

NTSC tapes are always 29.97, PAL tapes are always 25fps.

NTSC tapes will have 23.976fps film telecined to 29.97fps though, so you should run an IVTC to get it back to 23.976 then encode as progressive.

[lordsmurf]

Frame rates is only part of it.
www.digitalFAQ.com/understandsource.htm

[NamPla]

Thank you, yes I capture my PAL tapes at 25fps, 720x576 (encode at 352x576), and my NTSC tapes at 29.97fps, 720x480 (encode at 352x480). Nearly 99%, no problem at all - great captures, great encodes!! (--thanks to FulciLives great guide!).

But I have an NTSC tape that doesn't want to obey me! Firstly, I encoded Top Field First and got jerky stuttering effects. So I did Bottom Field First - that's much better, but there is still some SLIGHT "stuttering" (VERY SLIGHT) almost can't see it but I can! I'm just wondering if I captured it at the wrong framerate?

FlamInACupboard suggests I should encode my NTSC captures with inverse telecine/progressive etc... This is total new to me & I am confused now! Ha I have never looked at this "telecine"/"pulldown" whatever stuff before! Can anyone help me a bit more perhaps please? (I live in PAL land - which as everyone knows is dual-format land!).

Thanks!

(PS Yes Lord Smurf I have read your terrific guides, they have helped me much. I am solely concerned with analog VHS capture of PAL & NTSC video cassetes - old old dubs of great old rare movies etc! No problem with PAL, just the NTSC stuff gives me headaches now & then! :P )

[lordsmurf]

Geographic issues. PAL makes me want to almost vomit. Hard to get good PAL equipment here without importing it at a great cost. I'm guessing you've got the opposite experience right now.

[tkamin]

it's hard to get ntsc equipment here...
anyway - that's way most vcrs, dvds tvs etc. are all multysystem in Israel...

[NamPla]

Geographic issues. PAL makes me want to almost vomit. Hard to get good PAL equipment here without importing it at a great cost. I'm guessing you've got the opposite experience right now.

Ha, but no we have both formats here. The problem is, do I encode my NTSC 29.97fps/720x480 capture as a 352x480/inverse telecine??? What exactly are the settings in TMPGENc I should use?

I'll experiment anyway, and post back any results.

Thanks people!

(PS Is it expensive for sending PAL equipment to U.S.?? Cos PAL-country equipment these days plays both formats no problem, so Americans should buy PAL TVs and VCRs and DVD players ha ha...sounds like I'm joking but am a bit serious!?)

[flaninacupboard]

(PS Is it expensive for sending PAL equipment to U.S.?? Cos PAL-country equipment these days plays both formats no problem, so Americans should buy PAL TVs and VCRs and DVD players ha ha...sounds like I'm joking but am a bit serious!?)

It still works out more expensive for them. where americans can buy a DVD player for $30, cheapest i can get is £30, twice the price. same goes for most electronics, new computer with identical specs would be $300 or £300. not fair!

The inverse telecine really helps, you're encoding 20% less frames so if you use the same bitrate the qualiy jumps up (or conversely you can achieve the same quality with a 20% reduced bitrate). i'm sure it's covered in the capturing guides, have a read through

[lordsmurf]

Not only is some of it twice as much, shipping alone can sometimes cost more than the item itself. I wanted to buy a PAL SVHS VCR for ~$50 from ebay.uk (it was broken, but I know how to fix it, would have been a steal), however shipping alone was $100 or more, and that's not even for any kind of fast shipping (weeks+).

[NamPla]

That's stuffed.

I wish I was in Mafia and could ship you some free stuff, ha ha.

I will do some more research into this telecine stuff... But if you can give me some hints, that would be great. I'm frameserving with avisynth into TMPGEnc...

If I'm capturing at 720x480/29.97fps, what settings do I tweak in TMPGEnc?? Sorry, it's probably common knowledge, but I've been relaxing in PAL world so now I have to wake up a bit...

I'll do my own research too & post back my results.

Thanks a lot, fellas.

[flaninacupboard]

well TMPGenc has an IVTC function built in, i've used it a few times with no problem, but some people don't like it. AVIsynth has a whole load of IVTC filters available, just google it

Because i'm in PAL territory after i have run IVTC i speed my 24fps file up to 25fps and change to 720x576, and encode as normal PAL. there's guides for that on this site somewhere.

[NamPla]

Thanks, yes I'm in Pal-ville too, I haven't had a chance to read up much yet but I will. I'm still a bit confused, tho, like why exactly would I need to do my NTSC 720x480/29.97fps VHS capture as "inverse telecine"? Why not just leave it alone? Just this one tape giving me a bit of trouble...Do you mean "every" NTSC capture should be inverse telecined when encoding? (I got no need to convert it to Pal, I can play Pal & Ntsc fine).

Thanks, Flaninacupboard!

[flaninacupboard]

it depends on your source. if it's shot on a video camera it's interlaced - IVTC won't work on that. if it's shot on film it's telecined - so we want to use IVTC.

Basically to turn 24fps film into 30fps NTSC some fields (half frames) are repeated and blended. so when you encode you're wasting bitrate on repeated frames, better to remove them and encode just the 24fps. also means when you use a progressive DVD player and Progressive display you'll get a much better picture.

[NamPla]

Hi, sorry I didn't mean to draw this out into a long tiresome thread... :P

But your comments raise more questions, I'm afraid! My source is NTSC VHS tape. They are old unreleased movies, some dubbed, some originals, NONE presently available on VHS or DVD!!!

OK, I understand that FILM is shot at 24fps on a movie camera. So does that mean that every NTSC movie I have here needs to be inverse telecined & converted to progressive frames for best quality on DVD?

What about PAL movies then (25fps)? What about American telemovies like some of Dan Curtis's horror stuff from the early '70s?? How do I approach this stuff???

What does progressive DVD player mean? Isn't EVERYTHING i see on my TV "INTERLACED"???

Oh bloody, I'm confusing myself even more now! Ha...

[flaninacupboard]

Hi, sorry I didn't mean to draw this out into a long tiresome thread... :P

But your comments raise more questions, I'm afraid! My source is NTSC VHS tape. They are old unreleased movies, some dubbed, some originals, NONE presently available on VHS or DVD!!!

OK, I understand that FILM is shot at 24fps on a movie camera. So does that mean that every NTSC movie I have here needs to be inverse telecined & converted to progressive frames for best quality on DVD?

What about PAL movies then (25fps)? What about American telemovies like some of Dan Curtis's horror stuff from the early '70s?? How do I approach this stuff???

What does progressive DVD player mean? Isn't EVERYTHING i see on my TV "INTERLACED"???

Oh bloody, I'm confusing myself even more now! Ha...

I see you're thoroughly confused. welcome to the world of digital video!

yes, NTSC films should all be ivtc'd - except in some circumstances (if you've seen natural born killers for instance, it's a mix of telecined and true interlace material. all you can do is encode at 29.97) but that's pretty rare. PAL films are simply 24fps sped up to 25fps and shouldn't appear interlaced, although sometimes they are (for optical/video effects or time compression)

made for tv movie you have to judge each case as it comes. do a search for identifying telecine or interlace. you'll find some guides on figuring what your source is.

A progressive scan DVD player has progressive outputs, in the form of component sockets, RGB, or now DVI and HDMI. a normal tv, yes, is an interlaced display, but progressive TV's are becoming more popular. those plasma, lcd and dlp tv's/projectors are progressive, too.

[NamPla]

Phew, I'm going back to 18fps Super 8!!!

No, actually thanks a lot for your comments, Flaninacupboard (?)...ha... You've certainly directed me onto a new path of research!

One thing, though, is that I have successfully encoded several NTSC movies...captured at 720x480, 29.97fps...encoded at 352x480, 29.97...interlaced, top-field-first...And they look GREAT on my stupid normal non-plasma TV!!! ha...

Just that, some look a "bit" strange...not field-order "stuttering"...but ever-so-slight "pausing" (?)...hard to describe...

What you suggest is inverse telecining. On all my NTSC captures. OK, I'll try that mate & report back.

Thanks a lot!

[NamPla]

Just a quickie: I can't say I've googled this yet, I've just searched around here. But am I wrong in saying that there is a lack of guides on this matter here on Videohelp.com??? (Perhaps I'm wrong...sorry!)