Studio Recording Quality

[housepig]

you want pro sound? Think about spending around $1000 for mic, then a mic-modeller, pro-tools soundcard, pro-tools software, dbx drive-rack (monitor speaker modeller), proper monitoring system, proper pre-amp.

wow, I could have sworn he was looking to bump up from a $40 mic into a sound card.

if you want to play the "my system is more pro than yours" game, shouldn't we be talking about $20,000 just to wire the patchbays? Neve consoles? Neumanns? $10,000 for acoustically-treated spaces?

and a mic-modeller? how not pro. pros don't need modelling, they have real mics.

next time you see a bowl of Wheaties, try not to piss in it...

[lowlow42]

you want pro sound? Think about spending around $1000 for mic, then a mic-modeller, pro-tools soundcard, pro-tools software, dbx drive-rack (monitor speaker modeller), proper monitoring system, proper pre-amp.

Think $6K (minimum).

None of the above advice will yield real pro sound.

plus isolation booth, proper digital mixing board, clean power supply for all the gears.

I have to correct myself. think $10K minimum.

Ummm... I just want decent quality recordings. But thanks for letting me know this useful information.

[Jester700]

you want pro sound? Think about spending around $1000 for mic, then a mic-modeller, pro-tools soundcard, pro-tools software, dbx drive-rack (monitor speaker modeller), proper monitoring system, proper pre-amp.

Think $6K (minimum).

None of the above advice will yield real pro sound.

plus isolation booth, proper digital mixing board, clean power supply for all the gears.

I have to correct myself. think $10K minimum.

"Pro" means lots of different things to different people. "Pros" have recorded LOTS of stuff on lesser gear than we're suggesting. Yes, a REAL big pro studio has lots of stuff, because part of the reason they can charge $100 an hour is because they can handle almost anything. A project studio can be much more targeted, and cheaper. So no, you can't go into the "pro recording studio biz" with JUST what we're suggesting. But you CAN produce output of pro quality.

Now, then.
A $1000 mic. Sure; that's why I have my AKG. But the $100 chinese ones get you most of the way there these days, more so than a $300 one would just 10 years ago.

A mic modeler. Baloney. Big studios have mic CLOSETS and don't touch mic modelers. People on the cheap with Chinese mics do, and if you wanna play with these sounds, be my guest. Definitely NOT a requirement, though - they didn't even exist 10 years ago.

Proper pre - sure. But the Behringer is fine. A $5k Manley would be nice, but is not a requirement, especially with condensors. Anyone saying different isn't a pro - he's a snob.

Pro tools is a good choice, but Audition and an Audiophile is fine. No, he can't interface with the rest of the Protools "big boys", but that doesn't mean he's got inferior sound.

Proper monitor - yes, and that's gonna be the biggest issue after the upgrade. But he's not a mastering house, and plenty of hits were done on those crappy NS10s, so $2000 Genelecs are not a requirement.

What the hell do you need a driverack or digital mixer for?

Iso booth. Yeah, maybe. But for close micing the room he has will work as he learns the gear, and he can always deaden the room enough to be usable.

You're just playing Devil's advocate. He never said he wants to be a pro studio, just to get a competitive sound. With the correct technique, he'll be able to do that.

[Jester700]

Whats the difference between 24 bit/96 khz and 16 bit/44.1khz? Is it quality or what?

Yes. 16/44.1 is the CD standard, and mostly what people think of as high quality sound. Some think it's not enough, but most are going the OTHER way with MP3s and similar, so there's no agreement what "good enough" is. On an average system in a normal listening environment, very few people can hear any difference between CD and 24/96, but there are few proper documented listening tests of this.

One thing's for sure - you can get a better 16/44 end result if you start out and process the audio at higher bit depth and reduce it as a last step. That's why 24/96 and others are so widely used.

[lowlow42]

Sorry about that, I posted right when you did.
So then, 24/96 is better to record with, right?
I also decided I'd just go ahead and buy the switch box, its more for convenience. Even though I will still have to buy a couple of cables in order to make it work.
Well I will be buying the Behringer UB802 this weekend, and when I get it, I'll let you guys know how it works. Most likely it wont solve much, but then after that I'll go to the next step, the mic, then finally the soundcard.

Once again, I know I've said it over and over, but you guys have been a big help on deciding what I should get for recording. I appreciate it alot!

[Jester700]

Sorry about that, I posted right when you did.
So then, 24/96 is better to record with, right?
I also decided I'd just go ahead and buy the switch box, its more for convenience. Even though I will still have to buy a couple of cables in order to make it work.
Well I will be buying the Behringer UB802 this weekend, and when I get it, I'll let you guys know how it works. Most likely it wont solve much, but then after that I'll go to the next step, the mic, then finally the soundcard.

Well, it's up to you. You need to spend time playing with settings to see what difference they make to you. I get decent results on my 16 track hardware recorder, and it's limited to 16 bit. But on my PC I usually go 24 bit and 88.2kHz initially. But higher rates also eat up more disk space.

[lowlow42]

Oh thats no problem for me, I have 280 GB combined. I think thats plenty, right? After I record about 10 songs or so, I'm burning them to a CD and then deleting them from my computer anyways. When I get all of the hardware, I'll clearly read all the instructions and try to understand most of it. This way I have a more clearer understanding of all of it. So yeah, I'll play with the settings for sure, I just need to know what I'm messing around with so I dont screw things up. I'm sure the manuals included will help me with that though.

[Jester700]

Oh thats no problem for me, I have 280 GB combined. I think thats plenty, right? After I record about 10 songs or so, I'm burning them to a CD and then deleting them from my computer anyways. When I get all of the hardware, I'll clearly read all the instructions and try to understand most of it. This way I have a more clearer understanding of all of it. So yeah, I'll play with the settings for sure, I just need to know what I'm messing around with so I dont screw things up. I'm sure the manuals included will help me with that though.

If you really want to get "into" this, there are plenty of forums on the net concerning home recording. There's plenty of snobbery and backbiting, to be sure, but also lots of great info. Spend a little time reading. Spend time just playing - seeing if you can hear the difference between 16/44 and 24/96 for instance, but there's lots more. It IS a fascinating hobby, and it's amazing how good the sound quality can be at so little cost these days.

Since you use Audition, a great forum is here:
http://www.audiomastersforum.org/amforum/index.php

[lowlow42]

Thanks for the link!

[lowlow42]

Just an update, my mixer should be here tomorrow. But in the mean time I'm just looking around before I purchase the mic. I've seen this one and it seems as if everyone really likes this one.

http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--BEHB1

What do you guys think? It includes everything needed, Shockmount and a case.

Or should I just stay with the Marshall v57 (which also includes shockmount)? Do you think there's much quality difference between the two?

There's a $30 difference, is it worth it?

[Jester700]

The overall quality won't be better - it's the same thing. In fact, my GUESS (that's all it is) is that Behringer's QA isn't as good and you have a better chance of getting a stinker capsule. But that's not very helpful; I suspect you could get a great or poor one with either brand.

The LF cutoff might be helpful, but you could probably do the same thing with your mixer. The pad might be also, but the pres in these things are cheap enough that I'd bet if you needed to pad the output to the mixer, you'd be clipping the mic's pre anyway.

If you're looking at $100 mics, you might also consider Studio Projects' B1. Again, a similar chinese mic, but Studio Projects seem to have about the best rep with these things I've ever seen among pro & semi-pro people. Personally, I've never used one. But Behringer is generally less well loved among those types. Again, that's not from personal experience; just a thought.

[SaSi]

Apart from all the good advice so far, allow me to point out another factor not discussed (I think).

The room (i.e. amateur studio) is critical.

Professional studios have anechoic coatings on the walls and sound insulation, so that no external sounds get into the recording and also no echo is added to that. Only direct (as much as possible) sound goes from the source (mouth) to the microphone.

Good microphones have sensitivity characteristics that make them less sensitive to indirect sounds (consider the microphone axis like a pointer to the mouth).

Benchmark several different possible rooms you can choose. A large room with lot's of carpets and cloth covered sofas as well as heavy curtains is better than a small room with plain walls. Also, tapestry brick walls are better than painted or wooden walls. Keep in mind that the best theoretical anechoic room is the middle of a wasteland (e.g. desert) on a windless day. No walls or other material to generate any echo and indirect sound.

Also, this might be inconvenient, consider locating the PC NOT in the same room as the microphone. PC Fans create a considerable hum.

Finally, once you record, use the filters in Audition (I use Cooledit pro - as was it's previous name and think the same filters still exist). There is a graphic equalizer filter or paremetric equalizer filter preset called Vocal Presence. What it does is to slightly ampliphy (+2-3dB) the range between 1.2 ~ 2.4kHz. This is where the human voice typically spans. This gives exactly the sharpness you are looking for. Do that before you remove any noise. I believe it will help you remove less from the voice (which helps remove the garbling effect you mentioned).

Also, it is my belief that even cheap sound cards or embedded motherboard codecs (like yours) will be able to handle human voice nicely. I wouldn't spend anything on a new mike or card before sorting out the rest of the parameters.

And, I almost forgot, find out what is causing the hum noise and eliminate it. Could be that the mike is located close to a fan, PC or whatever like that, or even a bad/loose cable connection. Such interference greately deteriorates the mikes output and if you get a bad mike and better card, the hum will only become clearer!

[Jester700]

Apart from all the good advice so far, allow me to point out another factor not discussed (I think).
The room (i.e. amateur studio) is critical.

Professional studios have anechoic coatings on the walls and sound insulation, so that no external sounds get into the recording and also no echo is added to that. Only direct (as much as possible) sound goes from the source (mouth) to the microphone.

Sort of. Good studios have ISO booths with these characteristics, and yeah, that's where lots of vocals are done, for the reasons you describe. But the main rooms are designed to *sound good*, and are somewhat reverberant (in a balanced way). This is nitpicky, and I apologize for that - you got the main idea right.

Good microphones have sensitivity characteristics that make them less sensitive to indirect sounds (consider the microphone axis like a pointer to the mouth).

Overall, pickup pattern is not related to quality. BUT, if you have a directional mic, the better ones reject off axis sound in a more balanced way; cheaper ones (of a given type) will let lots of bass bleed while rejecting treble, for example. This is partly physics (bass is more omnidirectional, and large diaphragms are at a disadvantage here) and partly mic design & quality. In this case, he should deaden the room, and not worry too much beyond choosing a cardioid pattern (which most cheap chinese mics are).

Benchmark several different possible rooms you can choose. A large room with lot's of carpets and cloth covered sofas as well as heavy curtains is better than a small room with plain walls.

Good advice. Actually, this is a GREAT idea to just learn how rooms affect sound. This is why audio geeks walk around clapping hand & snapping fingers...

Also, this might be inconvenient, consider locating the PC NOT in the same room as the microphone. PC Fans create a considerable hum.

More good advice.

Finally, once you record, use the filters in Audition (I use Cooledit pro - as was it's previous name and think the same filters still exist). There is a graphic equalizer filter or paremetric equalizer filter preset called Vocal Presence. What it does is to slightly ampliphy (+2-3dB) the range between 1.2 ~ 2.4kHz. This is where the human voice typically spans. This gives exactly the sharpness you are looking for. Do that before you remove any noise. I believe it will help you remove less from the voice (which helps remove the garbling effect you mentioned).

Definitely play with filters, but I would never give any "specific frequency advice", because I have NO idea what your voice on your mic in your room with your gear is picking up.

Also, it is my belief that even cheap sound cards or embedded motherboard codecs (like yours) will be able to handle human voice nicely. I wouldn't spend anything on a new mike or card before sorting out the rest of the parameters.

I disagree, but everyone has different opinions on "good enough". The voice IS frequency limited (which is why phones can work while sounding so crappy). But nobody wants their voice sounding like a phone, and human hearing is REALLY good at focusing on the voice. This is why the best mics are often used on voice.

And, I almost forgot, find out what is causing the hum noise and eliminate it. Could be that the mike is located close to a fan, PC or whatever like that, or even a bad/loose cable connection. Such interference greately deteriorates the mikes output and if you get a bad mike and better card, the hum will only become clearer!

All true, but I thought he decided it was hiss that was the issue. That's more likely a "gear quality" issue than an interference one, but anything's possible...

[painkiller]

The selections of hardware/audio equipment notwithstanding, I see no one seems to have mentioned one critical thing. The room/space you record in.

In making for decent audio recordings of people/instruments, you also have to consider the room you are using. Certain furnishings are a no-no as they will cause unwanted reflections of the audio being produced. Which is also the biggest reason why you find (in professional audio booths/rooms) walls and doors are covered with sound-deadening materials. In addition, a good reason for using foam "pop" (and weather related high wind) filters placed over the microphone - all the time -reduces the p p p p problems in recording different peoples pronunciations.

I remember you said this is merely a hobby, but it wouldn't cost much to remove anything you don't need within the room you intend to record within. (such as furniture). For that matter, placing a blanket, or two over bookshelves can have a similar dampening effect - which helps clarify the sound you intend recording.

For whatever that's worth to you.

[lowlow42]

Thanks for all the advice, I guess I really never thought of the placement of the microphone was that important. But it seems at my house, my bedroom would be the quietest room, theres not much furniture. Only a bed and a couple of dressers. Although my computer is located in the same room, but in my opinion it is really quiet. I cant even hear it.

But as I said, I will be ordering the Mic next, and if I hear a difference, and the quality is better and the "hiss" is removed, I will have no need for the soundcard. So I'll definetely let you guys know.

From what I hear the mixer alone should get rid of some problems. I heard from a review, that it can make a $20 mic sound like a $100 mic. Pretty impressive! But... everyone is different, so I'll see tomorrow. I doubt it'll make my mic sound great, but who knows?

[lowlow42]

Oh, and 1 more thing. What exactly does the shockmount do, I know its something about physical sounds or something like that. But if its not that necessary, then I wont bother getting it.

[Jester700]

No mixer can "make a $20 mic sound like a $100 mic". Audio is all about the weakest link, so if you upgrade a mixer, it can improve your sound, but there are limits. Beware of hype, because there's a LOT of it in audio!

The shockmount puts some elastic between your mic & the stand to dampen vibrations transmitted from the floor. A worthwhile thing to have if you're not recording on a concrete slab.

[lowlow42]

Ok, I'll get the shockmount then. Yeah, I noticed some people can get kind of excited in reviews, although there are some that give nothing but negative comments which also make you think about the product. But I think everything will be alright. Thanks for the advice.

[lowlow42]

Well, I did get the mixer today in the mail, although it included no cords/cables. So I'll have to stop by Radioshack or Best Buy and pick up something that will go from the 2- 1/4" main outputs (mixer), to the 1/8" input of my current soundcard. Now when I plug it into my soundcard, does it go the "mic in" or "line in"? Whats the difference between the two?

[Jester700]

Well, I did get the mixer today in the mail, although it included no cords/cables. So I'll have to stop by Radioshack or Best Buy and pick up something that will go from the 2- 1/4" main outputs (mixer), to the 1/8" input of my current soundcard. Now when I plug it into my soundcard, does it go the "mic in" or "line in"? Whats the difference between the two?

Line in. Mic in has more gain and more noise.

Make sure the cable is an actual 1/8" plug on the PC end; don't use a 1/4" to 1/4" cable and then put a 1/8" adapter on it - that makes it a BIG lever just waiting to rip apart your soundcard's jack.

[lowlow42]

Alright, thanks for letting me know! When I test it out, I'll let you know how it goes.

[lowlow42]

Make sure the cable is an actual 1/8" plug on the PC end; don't use a 1/4" to 1/4" cable and then put a 1/8" adapter on it - that makes it a BIG lever just waiting to rip apart your soundcard's jack.

I was actually thinking of getting something like:
1/4" to RCA, then getting a "Y" cable for RCA to 1/8". You see what I'm saying. In this case, if I do get the soundcard, then I can just use this same cable.

But like you said, if I put extra things on it, is it going to mess stuff up?

[Jester700]

Make sure the cable is an actual 1/8" plug on the PC end; don't use a 1/4" to 1/4" cable and then put a 1/8" adapter on it - that makes it a BIG lever just waiting to rip apart your soundcard's jack.

I was actually thinking of getting something like:
1/4" to RCA, then getting a "Y" cable for RCA to 1/8". You see what I'm saying. In this case, if I do get the soundcard, then I can just use this same cable.

But like you said, if I put extra things on it, is it going to mess stuff up?

That one's not too bad, but make sure you don't risk jamming that puppy with the way your PC is situated. If it's clear back there you should be OK. If it's tight, I'd spend the extra few bucks for a different cable.

[lowlow42]

Ok, I'm going to head over to RadioShack tomorrow.

[lowlow42]

Hello, I purchased the cables today. I got two 1/4" cables that have 1/8" ends on them. I then got a "Y" cable that combines the two 1/8" ends into 1. (Hopefully I havent lost you).


Everything works fine, expect for.. I can't hear or record on the right side. I can hear and record only on the left. (In my headphones, I can only hear the left side). I've tried 3 pairs of headphones, and my speakers, so I know its not that. All the plugs are secure too.

What could be the problem?

I have it plugged into "line in". I have the Level 1 gain set to -10. I have the channel 1 "level" set to about 9. I have the main mix at "0".

I've experimented over and over to where it is a good level, and not clipping.

Also, is it that necessary that I have to purchase the soundcard? It just seems to be high priced. Won't the mic and the mixer, hand in hand, get rid of most of the "hiss", and allow me to have the volume I need without distortion?

The mixer alone has not given me the quality I want (as I expected), so next week I'll be ordering the microphone (MXL v57). So hopefully those 2 things will work for me.

Any help, as always, is appreciated!!!

[lowlow42]

Might I add, that even though I'm not using the "Microphone In", I tested it out on that, and both left and right sides worked. But I could tell the difference between the "Line In" and "Mic In", "Mic In" is much louder!

[lowlow42]

Hmmm.. I recently checked the prices of the Audiophile 2496, it has dropped down to $100! I might consider buying it now, but is it actually needed, and is it worth it?

[lowlow42]

So.... What do you think the problem is with only the left channel working? And also, should I buy the Audiophile?

[Jester700]

The mic in is probably mono and your adapter probably is too. The adapter SHOULD be two 1/8" MONO to one 1/8" stereo. The adapter *should* have 3 conductors on the plug (the tip, a ring, and the sleeve) with black bands between them. But your 1/4" to 1/8" cables should have only 2 conductors - a tip and a sleeve; only one black band.

The mic in has an extra gain stage - this is giving you the louder signal, but ALSO gives you more noise. Since your mixer output is line level you should use the line in on your sound card.

[Jester700]

Low,
your adapter should be part # 274-375, not 274-313.

For $100, you can't go wrong with the Audiophile...