Studio Recording Quality

[Jester700]

Just a correction: Marshall electronics is NOT related to the amp company. Now I'm gonna go clean this egg off my face...

[Jester700]

Anyway, I'm capturing from DV directly to DVD mpeg, not .avi. Probably shouldn't, huh? I get so lost when I read "transfer it to this or that - select bit rates, etc.", so it's all trial and error for me. I have "S" capabilities and also fire wire, but these don't import sound, do they?? Would I still use the composites for the sound part? Through the regular capture attachment?

The BEST way is to capture as AVI through firewire. That isn't really a cap - it's a file transfer; nothing is lost at all. The problem is that it's big - 14GB per hour of video. Once it's in the PC, you can pull the audio (I think both VirtualDub and TMPGEnc do this) and play with it. Plus, you can edit easily, AND make great mpeg encodes. This is slower than realtime capture to mpeg, but it's the best quality. And yes, audio goes over firewire.

You can still pull audio from mpeg, but it will lose quality. Try it to see if it's acceptable. I wouldn't do this, but if you used the cam mic and the quality isn't great anyway... it's up to you.

So..... If I just hook up the left and right sound jacks into the capture card, and don't hook up the video in any way, it SHOULD just make a .wav file, right? Or will the system just tell me I don't have everything hooked up?

This depends on software, and I don't use the AIW OR Ulead's stuff, so I dunno.

I learn a lot here, though. Even gave my 'puter guru some info I learned here that help him out! And I appreciate your taking the time - and your patience - to help me out when you can!

No problem. Keep reading here. Read ALL the how-tos (maybe even for gear you don't have; you never know what you'll pick up). Search google for FAQs on DV, video capture, encoding, etc. Read all your manuals for camcorder and capture card. If you spent a whole weekend at the PC just learning (consider it free schooling) you'll give yourself a nice jumpstart.

[lowlow42]

Oh and what does it mean it (MXL) needs 48 v phantom power?

[Jester700]

Oh and what does it mean it (MXL) needs 48 v phantom power?

Condensor mics like this need to be powered. The capsule itself needs power, and there's a small preamp in the mic to get the signal to a workable level to get through the cable. This is supplied over the mic cable itself by the mic preamp or mixer that you plug the mic into. There is some ultra cheap gear or old PA stuff that may not have phantom power capability, but IMO anything that doesn't probably isn't of a quality level high enough to use.

[Jester700]

So the MXL is alot better than the Shure 57 you'd say?

For recording vocals, yes, 99% of the time.

Now, here's the part where I talk too much...

The Shure 57 is more favored in the studio than the 58 for various reasons. It's got a bit different presence peak, and no heavy windscreen. It IS used in the studio a lot for guitar amps, drums, etc. And once in a long while for vocals, too. Voices are a very individual thing - this is why big studios have several >$1000 mics available. It isn't that one's always "better" than another, it's that different voices sound better on different mics. If you weren't so limited financially I'd say go to a store and record YOUR voice on several good mics and pick the best one. In fact, with the variability of the chinese mics, you could still do that anyway! But back to the point - sometimes a voice comes along that sounds best on a 57, or a Sennheiser 441, or some other non-condensor mic. That's all fine. But if you're just starting out, and you're strapped for cash, and you want to record vocals in a home studio - the Chinese mics are the best starting point, IMO.

[lowlow42]

Also, when I get the new soundcard... the "M-Audio Audiophile 2496 PCI Digital Audio Card", do I get rid of my old one? Without it I wont have any speaker outputs.

Also, when I get this hardware, and I go to record. I see that the soundcard has RCA Output jacks. Will I have to output the instrumental playing on the computer, to the line in on the mixer (Along with the Microphone)? That way both get recorded? Or do I just record the vocals from the mic? Hmmm... I guess that sounds stupid. I dont think I'll have to output the instrumental to the input of the mixer, but I figured I'd ask.

[lowlow42]

The Behringer 802 Mixer, it says this in the product description:
"Switchable +48 V phantom power for condenser microphones".

Is that what I need then?

[Jester700]

The Behringer 802 Mixer, it says this in the product description:
"Switchable +48 V phantom power for condenser microphones".

Is that what I need then?

Yup.

[lowlow42]

So how about my old card?

[Jester700]

So how about my old card?

It may coexist peacefully with the new card, so you could leave it in. But if you don't need more than 2 channels, you may as well pull it.

[lowlow42]

But as I said earlier, if I pull the old card out, then I have no speaker outputs with the new card. Unless I buy an adapter, which I guess I'll have to do, in order to get the best sound out of my speakers.

Ok, well thank you for all of your help.

I decided I'm going with:

Behringer UB802 Mixer
Audiophile 2496 Soundcard
and the MXL mic

[proxyx99]

It's great that finally the consensus was reached but I do have some weird feeling in my stomach. The advise and discussion was very good and informative. I'm just kind of wondering. We are talking about DVD commentary not recording Pavarotti live. Good mic, yes, it's great to have it but as it was suggested: test a few. Soundcard? absolutely, but I'd rather borrow a decent card (or bought for testing) and check what could be called a staring point. From there I would know which way to move, which card and which mic.

It was said: this card and this mic and at the same time the argument was brought up that "studios have several mics as you never know which one would be the best" (more or less, my "made up" "quote"). I couldn't agree more and that's why the conclusion that: here's my shopping list, is kind of surprising.
Until now we don't know what distortion made first recording terrible.

In my student years I worked with a radio station and was a freaquent witness how, using the same equipment, people could sound totally different. Lowlow42 do you know what sound you are after? I don't think so, at least not yet. Remember you will be recording not 3 tenors but jus a commentary where your room acoustics is at least as important as your mic. And to close my post I've heard and made band live recordings using inexpensive Yamaha and SB Live cards. Very impressive. Though I don't have a great mic to prove it to myself but I'm more then convinced that these cards could handle commentary more then adequately just as they handled the whole band (few years ago) with ease. So let's not get crazy and pull out 120mm cannon to kill a mosquito.

[Jester700]

But as I said earlier, if I pull the old card out, then I have no speaker outputs with the new card. Unless I buy an adapter, which I guess I'll have to do, in order to get the best sound out of my speakers.

There are line outs on the audiophile that will go to powered speakers or an amp & passive speaker combo. If you only have small passive speakers that were being powered by the card itself, you'll need to upgrade those as well, but you'd want to anyway if you're doing any sort of music recording. You will hear better sound quality on everything coming out of your PC after all this.

[Jester700]

It's great that finally the consensus was reached but I do have some weird feeling in my stomach. The advise and discussion was very good and informative. I'm just kind of wondering. We are talking about DVD commentary not recording Pavarotti live. Good mic, yes, it's great to have it but as it was suggested: test a few. Soundcard? absolutely, but I'd rather borrow a decent card (or bought for testing) and check what could be called a staring point. From there I would know which way to move, which card and which mic.

He originally talked about making sure the "song" sounds good; I was assuming he's recording musical stuff, maybe karaoke or something. I don't remember "DVD commentary" anywhere, though I didn't comb through the thread. But yeah; testing these things would be helpful. Lowlow, if you can give me a day I'll record a quick snip through both a "cheap" setup and through my recording rig, though the "cheap" one may not be at all representative of yours.

It was said: this card and this mic and at the same time the argument was brought up that "studios have several mics as you never know which one would be the best" (more or less, my "made up" "quote"). I couldn't agree more and that's why the conclusion that: here's my shopping list, is kind of surprising.

Well, we all just gave ideas of what gets him in the quality ballpark most affordably, and the choices were good (and fairly obvious) ones. The only one "significantly questionable" is the mic, and only because that's where most individuality lies. I did in fact say to try a few if possible, but if that's difficult for any reason the mic will still do its job well, even if it isn't the "optimal" one for his voice. Also, if he can only afford one mic and intends to record different people, the "optimal" thing doesn't matter, and the MXL is a good "bang for the buck" choice.

Until now we don't know what distortion made first recording terrible.

True, and more troubleshooting might be in order, though it came down to "hissy", maybe among other things. Though if he's using Audition and wants to get into recording, I can't imagine he'll regret the <$300 on this basic rig.

Lowlow42 do you know what sound you are after? I don't think so, at least not yet. Remember you will be recording not 3 tenors but jus a commentary where your room acoustics is at least as important as your mic.

That's not important yet; he's looking to upgrade the overall quality, and the recommended stuff will do that. He can always add to the mic collection when he knows what he's after. And room acoustics matters much less in close miking; in this case I doubt the room matters anywhere near the effect of the upgrade he's talking about.

Though I don't have a great mic to prove it to myself but I'm more then convinced that these cards could handle commentary more then adequately just as they handled the whole band (few years ago) with ease. So let's not get crazy and pull out 120mm cannon to kill a mosquito.

This makes sense. He could try just the mic & mixer into his current card, and upgrade the card if that's not satisfactory. I was thinking since he has audition and will have a decent mic & pre, the card will be an obvious weak link. And it will, but it might still be good enough and can be upgraded later.

[Shilohaura]

Thanks so much for the info, Jester! I believe I have a new project for this weekend, thanks to you! And I appreciate the info on the firewire transfer. I'm the only one I know that's into this capture and DVD stuff, even my computer guru is lost in this area, so no one knew the answer. And amazing that it's never mentioned in the instruction books or help menus!! Like I said, I guess they figure that's just basic knowledge everyone already knows - but, unfortunately....... Someone could make a mint writing a book for people like me (and We Are Many!). "Things People Don't Tell You Cuz Every Fool Already Knows It". Yup! There's a fortune to be made!

I'll let you know how it goes!

[lowlow42]

As questioned earlier, I wanted the upgraded equipment for recording songs, not commentary. Jester backed me up, and has mostly everything right about my point of view.

I was originally planning on buying the pieces of hardware at different times, and trying each piece before I ordered the next, just to see if my problem went away. Starting with the mixer, then the mic, and finally the soundcard.

My speakers are not powered through the soundcard though, I have pretty good speakers, but the subwoofer plug is the 1/8" kind. So I'd have to get the "Y" cable that splits that (1/8") into right and left analog in order to use it on the new card. Right?

[Jester700]

My speakers are not powered through the soundcard though, I have pretty good speakers, but the subwoofer plug is the 1/8" kind. So I'd have to get the "Y" cable that splits that (1/8") into right and left analog in order to use it on the new card. Right?

I think so, yeah. It's fairly common, since this is used to interface most PC cards, portable CD & MP3 players to home audio gear.

[lowlow42]

Ok, it seems as if I'm all set. Once again thanks for all your help!!!

[lowlow42]

Oh, I meant to ask this:

If I plug the output of the Audiophile to my speakers, then when I go to record, how do I hear the instrumental? Not through the mixer, because I'll only hear the microphone. So how do I go about listening to the instrumental?

[Jester700]

Oh, I meant to ask this:

If I plug the output of the Audiophile to my speakers, then when I go to record, how do I hear the instrumental? Not through the mixer, because I'll only hear the microphone. So how do I go about listening to the instrumental?

As a full duplex card, you'll be able to monitor the input while hearing the playback of the instruments through the card. Definitely read the manual to figure out the card's mixer interface. I don't have that card, so I may miss some specifics, but it should be fairly similar to my MIA...

[lowlow42]

Hmmm... its just kind of weird now that I think of it...

Alright, I'll just read the instruction manual.

[Jester700]

Hmmm... its just kind of weird now that I think of it...

Alright, I'll just read the instruction manual.

One practical matter... you'll need to monitor over headphones while recording, not your speakers. Otherwise you'll get feedback. This means you'll have to rig up a splitter arrangement between phones & speakers, keep swapping plugs, or have some other switch box. Unless your speakers have a headphone out, in which case you're golden.

[vcdforme]

Wow.

Lots of good comments here. (Housepig)
I'm guessing the "static" is a soundcard problem.
Won't a cheapo $25 soundblaster work just fine for this
guy?

A Shure sm57 is a great choice. Probably better than he
needs, but if he gets serious, it's good enough for higher
level recording and yet inexpensive.

No need for a mixer, slap a Rad shack Low to High impedance
coupler on it, then down to 1/8, and he's there.
Hopefully the weight won't yank out the soundcard plug. Lol.

But this should get him sounding very good, very cheaply.
Talent and mic technique(most important) are another matter
entirely. Talent always transcends the equipment.
LowLow42 is fortunate for all the good comments here,
i.e., at a DVD forum.
He should be reading some Homerecording websites.

[lowlow42]

Yes, beleive me, I appreciate all the help everyone has given me.

I figured I'd probably have to get a splitter for the headphones and speakers. Unfortunately my speakers dont have a headphone output. I wasnt planning on playing it through the speakers, as you said there would be feedback.

I got a question, the more splitters I use, does that decrease the amount of quality in the speakers, or headphones? Or does the quality just stay the same. I still want to enjoy the good quality my speakers put out, and if its being shared with the headphones, I dont want the quality to decrease. But if it doesn't happen, I have nothing to worry about.

I guess its better to find a switch box of some sort, because when I want to listen to my headphones, I dont want to have to keep unplugging my speakers, and what not.

[housepig]

1. Won't a cheapo $25 soundblaster work just fine for this
guy?

2. No need for a mixer, slap a Rad shack Low to High impedance
coupler on it, then down to 1/8, and he's there.

3. Talent always transcends the equipment.

1. I wouldn't recommend Soundblaster cards to line a birdcage with - I've had so many problems with them I've given them up entirely.

2. That's just exchanging one set of problems for another - the impedence matching adapter and the 1/8" adapter are going to add noise, and would not address what I suspect to be the main problem - the lack of gain and headroom in the soundcard's mic preamp.

3. so true, so true....

[lowlow42]

How would I go about looking for one of these switch boxes. I typed it in Google, and I cant find something that resembles what I need.

I'm just trying to avoid so many cables. I could get "2 rca to 1/8 adapter", and a "1/8 to 2 1/8 adapter", but I dont want so many cables, and to keep going back and forth to unplug and plug is a hassle. Please look at my diagram I've made (dont mind the sloppiness).

[Jester700]

Unfortunately, this may be how you'll need to set it up. I don't think the headphones in parallel will do too much to mangle the sound from your speakers, but I'd check anyway - you may want to unplug them when using the speakers.

I don't know of any 1/8" splitter/switcher boxes (though with all the stuff using that connector these days, there SHOULD be!), but you could wire this up with a RCA switcher and a bunch of adapters.

OK. I found a few, but they're insanely priced at $21. For a plastic box, three 1/8" jacks, and a small switch. http://electronicsusa.com/productsswitches.html

[lowlow42]

Oh ok, well nevermind... I'll just use the adapters, its not that big of a deal. Or maybe I'll look around at a local Radioshack. They probably would have one. If not, so what, I just have to plug it in when I need to use it. Thanks for the link, and thanks for your help!!

[lowlow42]

Whats the difference between 24 bit/96 khz and 16 bit/44.1khz? Is it quality or what?

[sapiendut]

you want pro sound? Think about spending around $1000 for mic, then a mic-modeller, pro-tools soundcard, pro-tools software, dbx drive-rack (monitor speaker modeller), proper monitoring system, proper pre-amp.

Think $6K (minimum).

None of the above advice will yield real pro sound.

plus isolation booth, proper digital mixing board, clean power supply for all the gears.

I have to correct myself. think $10K minimum.