Studio Recording Quality

[lowlow42]

Oh ok, thank you.

[BJ_M]

I got a question, how about this mixer? It has more channels.

Is it better, or should I just go with the other one?

I haven't found a clear answer on this yet, but these look like low-budget copies of Behringer mixers. As such, I would rather spend the extra $20-30 for a Behringer that has the same channels and layout.

alto is ok -- it's a Italian company who has much of thier stuff made in the far east (as does Behringer) .. they share much of the same parts and both are a bit of mackie knockoffs - though this is a somewhat blurred line..
the guy who started alto also worked for mackie .. Behringer and mackie are more known by far ... Behringer by the massive push and ownership partially by SAMS ...

[richdvd]

here is a link to the Behringer mixer that I use..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41472&item=3729638539&rd=1

it works excellent..
it's got the 2 XLR inputs on it, which is very nice.
you might be better off to buy a brand new one from a music store.
i think i paid around $100CAN (new) for mine about a year ago.

[Jester700]

...low budget copies of Behringer... Now THAT is funny!

[lowlow42]

Thanks for the link. That is basically like the 502 but with an extra port? Sounds good... I'll check into that.

[richdvd]

Plus the 502 only has 1 XLR..
But sounds like it might be enough for what you want to do.
I don't think there is much price difference between the 2 models though.

[lowlow42]

Ok, it seems as thought the 802 is a better deal then? Thanks for the advice!

[proxyx99]

All the suggestion above are great but... not knowing what is the disease that is affecting your recordings it would be almost impossible to suggest a cure. Replacing mic, soundcard and getting preamps may or may not give you the improvement you want. First check sites that feature amateur music production and find out how it can be done successfully. Second, try to find any recording studio in your area (there's gotta be some...) take your recording and get their opinion. These are music enthusiasts and will show you the difference (using their own samples). Guessing what to buy and how it is going to affect your recordings is just ludicrous. You may have issues with clipping that may be resolved by a decent sound card (even creative). Check pro-audio recording online dealers and find out what is the cheapest but working setup. Buying stuff blindly won't solve anything and may only add to your frustration. My guess (!) though would be to get a sound card that handles mic recordings well (even SB stuff). Also, try in-depth waveform analysys to look for faults. Out of all suggested solutions I would look at the soundcard replacement first as some are notoriously bad (high volume=clipping, low volume=noise, no good way to balance the recording). Good sound card will allow you to better judge your mic and etc. etc. Talk to pros first, check their groups as well. Seems you are trying to produce some quality stuff so plan accordingly. Research is the key (as usual...).

[lowlow42]

Ok then, I'll replace my soundcard card first and see how that works out. If that doesnt help a whole lot, then I'll go ahead and get the mixer and new mic. Thanks for the information, I'll make sure to ask around.

[lowlow42]

1 Final question...

Behringer 802 mixer, along with the new soundcard, and new mic will give me static free vocals? Or the static will be so low that I cannot hear it?

And about the volume raising deal, I'll be able to record higher, therefore I wont distort the vocals later, right?

Also, 1 quick question. Im just curious to know, what is the need of so many channels on a mixer? What does each channel control, obviously not all microphones...

[The village idiot]

If you want professional quality, then be prepared to pay professional prices. Good pro level cards start around $1000, decent microphone above $100 each.

[BJ_M]

a shure 58 is less than 100$ and a m-audio layla or 7.1 -- which are considered pro cards (the creative one i posted before is considered semipro but perfectly usable) are less than 1000$

he doesnt need tonnes of dsp and a protools setup ..

[proxyx99]

Exactly, some SB cards are excellent for the price. Check Turtle Beach and others as well like M-audio (plenty semi-pro producers use their stuff).
Static should not be present if you use anything above 50 bucks so try to isolate the source of it (always present, or high volume parts or maybe random...). Shure mics are excellent (think better then your current Sony). Look for a mainstream, inexpensive, widely used mic and check users opinions (why not... epinions.com for a starter).
Behinger stuff is cheap and highly regarded (good to have a mixer anyway) I also own 802 and it does the job very well. Check zzounds.com and other music equipment online stores. Some have users feedback section, may help. Good luck.

[lowlow42]

Alright then... So about all them channels, I've seen mixers with tons of channels, what are they all used for?

[housepig]

Alright then... So about all them channels, I've seen mixers with tons of channels, what are they all used for?

well, in my case, with a 24 channel board, I use 8 for drums, 3 for vocals, two for guitar, two for bass, one for extra percussion, 2 for samples and electronics, and the remaining 6 as controllable effects returns.

you don't need that many.

[lowlow42]

Ok, once again I'd like to thank you for the help. Im excited about getting the new hardware, hopefully it'll give me exactly what I want... and Im sure it will.

I'll be going with the Behringer 802, and Shure mic, I'm just not quite sure what soundcard to go with, but Ill ask at a local audio store. Thanks...

[Jester700]

Waitaminnit...

I agree with the guys who say good sound cards can be inexpensive - I have a MIA (small version of a Layla) for under $200. M-Audio is good, too. But please avoid Creative Labs stuff.

The Behringer, though not my fave, will do.

But I disagree with a 58 as a mic. Very popular for live work, but almost never used in the studio. If you want a "studio vocal mic", you need a "large diaphragm condensor" design. It needs phantom power, but your mixer will have that. Cheap chinese versions are available for under $100 (I've seen the MXL 57 for $60, and it's not bad at all - I have one).

[lowlow42]

And thats good for vocals? Will the XML 57 show static? How well does it record? What kind of quality do you get out of it?

I was going to go with the Shure because thats what everyone is telling me to do, but if you disagree, I'll listen to your advice too...

I'll make sure to stay away of Creative Labs stuff. Im just trying to find a decent soundcard for the cheapest price, maybe around the $100 range.

[Jester700]

And thats good for vocals? Will the XML 57 show static? How well does it record? What kind of quality do you get out of it?

I was going to go with the Shure because thats what everyone is telling me to do, but if you disagree, I'll listen to your advice too...

I'll make sure to stay away of Creative Labs stuff. Im just trying to find a decent soundcard for the cheapest price, maybe around the $100 range.

My MXL (marketed by Marshall - yeah, the guitar amp guys) is pretty good, though not as smooth as my AKG 414 (I don't mean to drop names, I just want to show that I have experience with "good studio mikes" too - the AKG is a $1000 mic, and the one I usually use). But for $70 it's a steal.

Live use mics like the 58 are built to take a pounding and have little handling noise. They also have a "presence boost" to make vocals pop out a little in a live setting through a PA system. They are dynamic designs that don't need phantom power. None of this helps when you're recording high quality stuff in a studio and don't need those characteristics. A studio mic has a lighter, more sensitive diaphragm. This means it'll break if you drop it, but it'll be much more accurate and give you MUCH better high frequency response.

Buy the tool that you need; don't try to pound nails with a pipe wrench. If you do live AND studio stuff, get both. If money's an issue, get a $50 knockoff of a 58 along with your $70 MXL. Those will do better to cover your needs than ANY single $120 mic.

REALLY think about upping your card budget to $150 to cover the M-Audio Audiophile. It's the same hardware as my MIA (which I still recommend, but it's a bit more at $180 or so) with different drivers and connectors, and will smoke any $100 card I've ever seen. These 24 bit cards will still do well for you after you've upgraded to a closet full of $1000 mics and a $5000 Manley preamp!

[Jester700]

One more thing - I assume you mean HISS, not STATIC. Static is sort of a crackling sound, and NO equipment should do this except a badly tuned radio

HISS is a steady SSSHHH sound like a cassette tape with no music on it. EVERY piece of audio gear has this - it's the sound of thermal noise - the movement of atoms. But in good gear it's so low you can't hear it. Do a google search on "signal to noise ratio" to find explanations. A 24 bit card and good analog electronics will top 110dB S/N (pretty darn quiet). A PERFECT 16 bit system (like CD) is around 96dB. FM radio is 50-ish, cassettes were 60-ish with dolby, etc.

If you want to play with audio, why not google for some audio FAQs or visit prorec.com, homerecording.com, and other home studio sites? LOTSA info out there to take in!

[Shilohaura]

Along this line, I have a question I'm sure someone has the answer to! I have been working with DVD authoring of my video tapes. Most are of my son's concert performances. How do I - or what is the best capture/authoring program to use if I want to eventually take the sound track away from the video and mix/record the music separately onto a CD? Info is appreciated in advance!!

[Jester700]

Along this line, I have a question I'm sure someone has the answer to! I have been working with DVD authoring of my video tapes. Most are of my son's concert performances. How do I - or what is the best capture/authoring program to use if I want to eventually take the sound track away from the video and mix/record the music separately onto a CD? Info is appreciated in advance!!

How are you getting the vid into the PC, and what format is it in originally? If you're capping to AVI, then you can peel the audio out of the AVI and convert the sample rate from 48k to 44.1k - that's the best route. Or make another pass and record just the audio at 44.1 - that'll avoid any possible SRC artifacts.

If it's DV, that's the best, since you aren't dependent on your sound or capture card's audio quality.

So, how ARE you doing this?

[lowlow42]

So out of the knockoff 58, and MXL, which one would I use mostly for vocals? And you were right, I meant the Hissing, not static.

[lowlow42]

P.S. Are you talking about this card "M-Audio Audiophile 2496 PCI Digital Audio Card".

And this is what I should get to get no hissing, or very low?

[Jester700]

P.S. Are you talking about this card "M-Audio Audiophile 2496 PCI Digital Audio Card".

And this is what I should get to get no hissing, or very low?

For vocals (and instruments, too) in the studio, the MXL. For vocals on stage, the 58.

Yes, that's the card. Very nice.

Remember, it's all about the weakest link. If any of your mic, pre, or card are less than good you may get hiss, distortion, or other issues. Plus, you need to set it all up right. It's not hard, but there is some technique involved - google on "gain staging". But with the setup you're considering, you should be able to make quiet recordings. How's the room itself? AC, traffic noise, yappy neighborhood dogs, etc?

[lowlow42]

I'm sure hooking the cables up is pretty much common sense. But as for the room I record in. I cut off the fan, and its silent in there. Dogs in the backyard, and they never really bark. I'm located where it is quiet.

Is there a specific model for the MXL, or is it just that? Whats the brand?

[Shilohaura]

Thanks for replying Jester700!

Basically, I've been capturing the video and audio together through composite connections and the ATI AIW 7500. I usually capture through Ulead Video Studio 6 (been having trouble with ATI lately functions lately, but hopefully got that taken care of this afternoon!). Not a frame gets dropped, but I'm still playing around with capture speeds and such.

Anyway, I'm capturing from DV directly to DVD mpeg, not .avi. Probably shouldn't, huh? I get so lost when I read "transfer it to this or that - select bit rates, etc.", so it's all trial and error for me. I have "S" capabilities and also fire wire, but these don't import sound, do they?? Would I still use the composites for the sound part? Through the regular capture attachment?

So..... If I just hook up the left and right sound jacks into the capture card, and don't hook up the video in any way, it SHOULD just make a .wav file, right? Or will the system just tell me I don't have everything hooked up?

I so need to find a class somewhere! So many things that people don't specifically talk about because "every fool knows THAT" - Well, I can't even classify as a fool then, cuz I have so many questions! It took me FOREVER to find out there wasn't anything wrong with my system when I couldn't get any sound through the "S" connection!!! EVERYBODY knows sound doesn't transfer through an "S" connection, so nobody ever thought to ask me if I had sound inputs connected! They just took it for granted that I knew this and something was wrong with my system - it was in the shop for days and they couldn't find anything wrong!! UNTIL... I asked, "Why do you have those other plugs in since you have the 'S' connection attatched???" You can imagine the laughter! And the guy was nice enough not to charge me a penny for my stupidity!!! Guess he thought I'd paid the price through my embarrassment.

I learn a lot here, though. Even gave my 'puter guru some info I learned here that help him out! And I appreciate your taking the time - and your patience - to help me out when you can!

[lowlow42]

Also, when I get the new soundcard... the "M-Audio Audiophile 2496 PCI Digital Audio Card", do I get rid of my old one? Without it I wont have any speaker outputs.

Also, when I get this hardware, and I go to record. I see that the soundcard has RCA Output jacks. Will I have to output the instrumental playing on the computer, to the line in on the mixer (Along with the Microphone)? That way both get recorded? Or do I just record the vocals from the mic? Hmmm... I guess that sounds stupid. I dont think I'll have to output the instrumental to the input of the mixer, but I figured I'd ask.

[Jester700]

I'm sure hooking the cables up is pretty much common sense. But as for the room I record in. I cut off the fan, and its silent in there. Dogs in the backyard, and they never really bark. I'm located where it is quiet.

Is there a specific model for the MXL, or is it just that? Whats the brand?

Here it is at AMS:
http://www.americanmusical.com/item--i-MAS%20V57MSM.html

I got mine for $10 less but with no shockmount - this one is a better deal. This is an older model, so snap it up. There are LOTS of people "rebadging" these Chinese mics - Audio groups call them "Shanghai mics" because one of the 2 big factories doing these is near Shanghai. Of the brands rabadging them, Marshall is among the better ones with respect to quality control. This is a good thing, because the designs are decent but QA in the factories themselves is terrible. At this price it HAS to be. So quality is VERY variable. But you're more likely to do well with an MXL (or even beter but more $$ - a Rode, or Studio Projects, or Carvin) than, say, a Nady.

Now, one reason I like the 57 is it's transformerless. There are great mics with transformers (my AKG, for one). But the cheap transformers they have to put in these aren't very good...

Anyway, by setup I didn't mean the cables; I'm sure you can handle that. It's about setting the levels at each stage so that you get the noise performance you paid for. Basically, you want to set as high a level at each stage as possible WITHOUT DISTORTION. That's at the input, on the faders, and at the soundcard. As long as you have an eye toward that you'll be fine.

Enjoy recording! For a few hundred bucks you're about to have a setup that was almost impossible to achieve quality wise just 20 years ago...

[lowlow42]

So the MXL is alot better than the Shure 57 you'd say?