DVD+R9 Double Layer first burn: problems with layer switch

[Edmund Blackadder]

I'm not sure on data, but I would guess it's the same with DVD-Video where the specifications say the second layer has to be smaller than the first.

Yes, and it is. But for recordable DL there always a dummy data written to the smaller layer, to make sure that the burn itself is equal on both layers, so DVD players don't get confused. And it's all written correctly on MKM and Ricoh discs, but not on Riteks. Perhaps that's where the second layer's calibration is taking place, which is not good at all.

Interestingly enough your picture looks like the second layer is indeed larger - but that won't be a fault of the media... I hate to say this but it's the burning application that says where the data goes on a disc unless the recorder (or lead in data on the disc itself) is misrepresenting the start and end block location.

I burned it with 3 different applications, including RecordNow, Nero, and yes, a highly praised DVD Decrypter, with 3 different burners. Same results on each Ritek DL disc. Though the last time I did a successful Ritek DL burn on Sony DRU-700, this overlapping area was near the inner ring instead of outer. So there's definitely something fishy with the media and not anything else. And in both cases, it causes some sort of a playback or recognition trouble on certain players.

[garryheather]

I don't doubt that - it's probably confusing the hell out of them !

I wonder if this is in some way similar to the problem I'm having as that is always at the layer break (although the second layer never gets burnt). Incidentally, Sonic have sent me a link to the new PX engine which I have not yet had the chance to try out.

[MaxBlack]

...Sonic have sent me a link to the new PX engine which I have not yet had the chance to try out.

Garry were you sent this on the strength of having submitted a trouble report about the Ritek problems?

I am registered w/Sonic and also check for Updates regularly but have seen nothing like this for 7.3 (yet).

[garryheather]

Yes, I was - I've got so far as installing it but I need a stiff drink before I write off another blank to try it out if you know what I mean. I'll try and get around to it today.

In the mean time, if you want to PM me with an e-mail address that will take an 800Kb file I'll willingly forward you a copy of the update if you wanted to try it at your own risk.

[RottenFoxBreath]

thought id revisit this thread and report some other strange findings.
used 3 ritek +RDL discs i had and ripped and burnt in ISO mode with dvd decrypter.
hitch-region 1
the flight of the phoenix-original version,not the crappy remake-region 2
saving private ryan-DTS version

all 3 burnt correctly,and play flawlessly on an alba dvd55,lg5620 HTS,xbox,ps2,and a goodmans portable player(with lcd screen).
burnt on my older 108,with 1.20 firmware.no problems with layer changes on any player.
from what i can gather,the main problem with the ritek discs,IMO,is my 109,the firmware on it,has been shit in most cases,flawed if you get my drift.
ive also seen some verbatim datalife+ dvd+rDL discs,in my local shop,but not had enough cash to buy into them.
never had a problem with my 108,but my 109,is a major pain in the ass regarding dual layer.
not seen the layer overlap phenomenon like edmund has seen,but i would say its the software,not setting the burn up correctly,more than the burner.

[Edmund Blackadder]

not seen the layer overlap phenomenon like edmund has seen,but i would say its the software,not setting the burn up correctly,more than the burner.

If so, then DVD Decrypter is flawed is well in ISO write mode, because I had the same overlapping on Ritek DL's when written with Decrypter, including with Sony DRU-710A (and not just Pioneer A09XL). I think it's a media problem. I don't doubt that 108 burns them OK, but from what I've seen there have been different batches of Ritek DL, and the later ones are worse than the first ones. I have Sony DRU-700A with firmware VY05 and all the earlier Ritek DL's burned successfully on it without overlapping. Now all the latest Ritek DL's when I try to burn with the same firmware they simply fail to burn after the layer change. So, besides being a poorly developed media, Ritek DL also seems to have inconsistency (not quality) issues within the same media code, as if it were a different media code for which some burners are not ready yet.

As I said earlier, I have not had any problems at all with Pioneer A09XL and MKM and Ricoh DL discs. I'd say it's the best burner for DL discs I have at the moment. It just doesn't like Ritek (together with my two Sony/LiteOn burners with the latest Ritek DL batches).

I'm now buying Verbatims for about $6 a piece and it works for me. Ritek is slightly cheaper, but is not worth the trouble, where I'll end up spending more because of the above mentioned problems. And even if they always burned successfully, my Pioneer DV-535 has never liked the second layer of Riteks under any burning conditions from day one. So besides burning issues, there are also reflectivity issues that will lower compatibility with different devices no matter how good your burner/software is. Ritek DL is just not worth the trouble, when for only a dollar more you can get the MKM perfection.

[MaxBlack]

...I've got so far as installing it but I need a stiff drink before I write off another blank to try it out if you know what I mean....

I know exactly what you mean!

I have only one Memorex (Ritek) left, and I guess I see no reason to monkey with it just now.

Although RottenFoxBreath may have had a few pints today (following the Open excitement) I think his working 108 suggests perhaps a combination of faults that does not bode well for the Ritek and 109, not at this time anyway!

[garryheather]

Well, I've just taken another one for the team - the updated engine did nothing for the layer break problem with D01 media.

If I keep telling myself reporting this back to Sonic makes it more reliable for myself and others I might put my last 4 D01 discs aside for this purpose... difficult to justify when they work with Nero and DVD Decrypter though. Group hug !

[MaxBlack]

In view Garry of your uncommon bravery in the face of difficult odds, I decided to risk my own last Ritek D01 by trying DVD Decrypter on it. Wouldn't you know, the bugger was not even recognized by it !!??!!! Says "Status: Incomplete". Nero CD-DVD Speed seems to know its a Ritek, but I launched RN7.3 and it seems to think the DVD is unwriteable as well.

I guess I am going to exercise the warranty on these 3 discs I bought and hope for future updates that allow me to use them. I only paid $10US so it's a relatively cheap lesson by PC-hobby standards.

Hopefully St. Peter knows how impossibly hard all this stuff is Garry and just waves you through the Pearly Gates (in the foggy, distant future of course)! Oh, and thanks for the hug...

[garryheather]

This takes me back to the early days when all the media was crap at best, discs were £££'s each and you had to wait an hour to find out whether or not it had f'd up...

Isn't nostalgia a wonderful thing ? Anyway, back on track, I've just filed my latest report with Sonic so if I hear any more I'll post back.

[Edmund Blackadder]

I have two words for you guys: MKM and Ricoh - and problems solved .
I certainly don't have any problems with those two.

As for Ritek, they need to shut down the D01 line and design something completely new from scratch. Until then I've had enough of Ritek DL. I'd like to try CMC DL though. I'm curious how that's gonna burn.

I think Ritek does have some new media code for DVD+R DL (it's been a part of the latest Sony/LiteOn firmwares), but I haven't seen it anywhere. Hopefully it will be better than D01.

[garryheather]

The Verbatim's I've been using are MKM and they are excellent - now if only they'd drop the price a little...

I was pleasantly surprised with the CMC ones I picked up, the resulting burns aren't as good as the MKM ones with my setup but apart from one coaster that wouldn't verify on the second layer they've been acceptable.

Still no sign of Ricoh media in my neck of the woods though...

[dfgh11]

are you all using Record now 7.3?

[Edmund Blackadder]

are you all using Record now 7.3?

I am for 95% of my DL burns. The other 5% is for when I feel like experimenting with Ritek DL discs, trying to burn with other software choices. Though it never made it better. So RecordNow 7.3 for me all the way.

For single layer though I prefer Prassi ONES, which has better control over your burns. However, ONES doesn't have a good DL support, so it's pretty much just as bad as Nero for DL (read: no layer break information insertion in IFO).

[dfgh11]

I was just looking through the settings of DVDdecrypter and I was just wondering if you knew that you could specify the Layer break . It's under 'ISO write mode'. I'm not sure if it's been mentioned already. Thought I'd just put it out there just incase

------

ALso:
Whenever I try to make a data disc in 7.2, I get an error saying , ' There was a formatting error in the VIDEO_TS/AUDIO_TS folders. Please check the folders and try again' . Everything within the folders is fine

I must State that I am using DVD-R DL Verbatim MKM 01RD30

[dfgh11]

Delete this

[Edmund Blackadder]

I was just looking through the settings of DVDdecrypter and I was just wondering if you knew that you could specify the Layer break . It's under 'ISO write mode'.

Yes, you can specify the layer break, but it's only for the physical location (in sectors) where you can do that. The actual IFO information is not going to be changed accordingly, which is bad. RN on the other hand does that for you, and I don't know of any other software that will do it.

Whenever I try to make a data disc in 7.2, I get an error saying , ' There was a formatting error in the VIDEO_TS/AUDIO_TS folders. Please check the folders and try again' . Everything within the folders is fine

I must State that I am using DVD-R DL Verbatim MKM 01RD30

That's already been discussed here, just a few posts above. But in short, your VIDEO_TS folder is not in strict DVD-Video compliance, which is required by RN. Otherwise it would not give you any formatting errors. If it's a copy of a commercial DVD, it doesn't mean that it's fully compliant. I've had this issue only once with one Hollywood DVD. None of my own DVD's authored with DVDMaestro were ever rejected by RecordNow (including the DL ones).

[dfgh11]

That's already been discussed here, just a few posts above. But in short, your VIDEO_TS folder is not in strict DVD-Video compliance, which is required by RN. Otherwise it would not give you any formatting errors. If it's a copy of a commercial DVD, it doesn't mean that it's fully compliant. I've had this issue only once with one Hollywood DVD. None of my own DVD's authored with DVDMaestro were ever rejected by RecordNow (including the DL ones).

Sorry about that, it's hard to keep up.

I've since tried 6 different discs. It gives me the same error for all of these. I'sn't there a way around it, other than burning a .gi?

[Edmund Blackadder]

I've since tried 6 different discs. It gives me the same error for all of these. I'sn't there a way around it, other than burning a .gi?

If you don't want to do GI image, then the only other way to do it is to re-author. You can first try it the simple way (no demultiplexing required), such as re-compiling the titles with DVD Shrink without using any compression and leaving menus behind - that should work. But if it doesn't, then you have to demultiplex and re-author everything from scratch. I'd recommend the Shrink method first, because in my case RN liked it just fine, without any formatting errors. And of course with Shrink you can get rid of all the annoying extras such as unskippable warnings and trailers .

On the other hand, if you have issues with 6 different discs, then perhaps the settings in your ripping program are set to remove/change too much? What are you using to rip? The only things I usually remove with DVD Decrypter are Macrovision and Region Code. Everything else, including Prohibited User Options I leave intact, because removing those sometimes messes things up.

[MaxBlack]

As EB says, what program(s) are you using, what is your process dfgh11.

For my backups, I routinely (now) rip w/DVDD in File mode, then I "fix" the startup using PgcEdit (to jump straight to the movie, retaining all else on the disc). Then I burn the VIDEO_TS folder w/RN using Data mode. The layer break isn't changed cuz I haven't changed the disc content at all.

If the movie is 4.7Gb, or within "75% compression using DVD Shrink" of a single layer disc, then I back-up the movie-only unless the extras are really special that I'd want always to view along with the movie. But I've learned to make sure that "Remove Layer Break" is checked in Shrink, else I get a pause in the playback at the layer break point, despite that it's a SL disc!!

[dfgh11]

On the other hand, if you have issues with 6 different discs, then perhaps the settings in your ripping program are set to remove/change too much? What are you using to rip? The only things I usually remove with DVD Decrypter are Macrovision and Region Code. Everything else, including Prohibited User Options I leave intact, because removing those sometimes messes things up.

On file mode I have ticked:

Remove:

IFO structure Protection
IFO RC Protection
IFO RCE Protection

ISO Mode ticked are:

IFO RC Protection
IFO RCE Protection

[Edmund Blackadder]

On file mode I have ticked:

Remove:

IFO structure Protection
IFO RC Protection
IFO RCE Protection

ISO Mode ticked are:

IFO RC Protection
IFO RCE Protection

OK, that is correct. So, which DVD's/region are you having problems with? Perhaps I have them too and I'll tell you if I had (or will have if I try to backup) any problems with those or not.

[dfgh11]

well I tried the following, all region 2:

Led Zeppelin Disc1 & 2
Red Dwarf V
The Office Series 1
Heat Special Edition


Well there are 5 discs there, but I forgot what the 6th one was. They all gave me that error, which is why it leads me to believe I'm doing something wrong somewhere.

[Edmund Blackadder]

well I tried the following, all region 2:

Led Zeppelin Disc1 & 2
Red Dwarf V
The Office Series 1
Heat Special Edition

Sorry dfgh11, but I don't have any of these DVD's, not in any region. So I don't know where the problem is. Did you try any more common (Hollywood, Region 1) DVD's as well?

I did quite a few DL backups with DVD Decrypter in File Mode for ripping and burning with RN 7.2/7.3. I had various DL discs from Regions 1, 2 and 5 and none gave me formatting errors, except for one DVD.

[dfgh11]

Sorry dfgh11, but I don't have any of these DVD's, not in any region. So I don't know where the problem is. Did you try any more common (Hollywood, Region 1) DVD's as well?

I did quite a few DL backups with DVD Decrypter in File Mode for ripping and burning with RN 7.2/7.3. I had various DL discs from Regions 1, 2 and 5 and none gave me formatting errors, except for one DVD.

The fact that it's all these discs, does tend to point to something being wrong somewhere. I do plan to try some more, and I'll let you know how it goes, once I get some more DL discs

As EB says, what program(s) are you using, what is your process dfgh11.

For my backups, I routinely (now) rip w/DVDD in File mode, then I "fix" the startup using PgcEdit (to jump straight to the movie, retaining all else on the disc). Then I burn the VIDEO_TS folder w/RN using Data mode. The layer break isn't changed cuz I haven't changed the disc content at all.

If the movie is 4.7Gb, or within "75% compression using DVD Shrink" of a single layer disc, then I back-up the movie-only unless the extras are really special that I'd want always to view along with the movie. But I've learned to make sure that "Remove Layer Break" is checked in Shrink, else I get a pause in the playback at the layer break point, despite that it's a SL disc!!

Well at the moment, just DDec in file mode, and record now via data disc. Thus far, all discs I've tried above seem to give off 'format error before burning commences'.

[MaxBlack]

Hmmm, it oughta work. If you haven't tried this, find the "Restore Defaults" button in DVDD and reset. Maybe you accidentally clicked a checkbox somewhere that RN doesn't like.

[dfgh11]

I'm not sure it's DDec anyway, 'cause I used smartripper, and got the same results.

[k9p on u]

Many thanks to Blackadder for an exceptional post in the myriad of rubbish found on the internet.

My problems started with episoidal stuff like Star Trek Voyager & TNG. Burning a dual layer with Nero or DVD Decrytor was always hit and miss resulting in a lot of unplayable discs on my Ronin 90H set top DVD Player. It was always disconcerting not knowing whether a burn would turn out ok or not.

But thanks to this post I purchased RecordNow 7.3 and some more Verbatim & Ricoh DL's and I've never looked back since. The burns are exceptional and play on everything in my house ecept my Phillips DVD Recorder which just does not support DL.

I also strongly agree that Ritek DL are a complete and utter waste of time. I recently ourchased a tub of 10 discs and only got 4 good discs from the 10. I have since burned 11 DL's from Verbatim and Ricoh without the slightest hitch.

I was a Nero diehard fan but all my DVD's whether single or dual layer are now being burned with RecordNow.

So, a very special thanks to everyone who contributed to this post.

[Edmund Blackadder]

So, a very special thanks to everyone who contributed to this post.

Thanks k9p on u, it's cool that DL is finally working for you 8)

[Deku Scrub]

I recently completed my first DL burn, and I'm delighted with the results.
I used Nero with Verbatim DVD+R DL.

Just watched the entire movie (Godfather) and everything was perfect. I didn't even notice the layer switch.

I must be lucky.