DVD+R9 Double Layer first burn: problems with layer switch

[Frunobulax]

Yes!!!

I used DVDMaestro to author the DVD and placed the layer break where I wanted it. Then I used DvdShrink to make an ISO file out of it (DvdShrink didn't mess with the layer break). I used Nero to burn the resulting image, and so far it has played perfectly in our standalone. Whew!

Time to order another six-pack!

[Edmund Blackadder]

Sleep?! What's that?!?! Working with this DVD9 stuff has had me up into the wee hours for several nights in a row!

You got the point there! And of course writing the long posts, while trying to explain something where I'm not even sure if I'm saying the right thing, makes me stay up even past the wee hours...

Yes!!!

I used DVDMaestro to author the DVD and placed the layer break where I wanted it. Then I used DvdShrink to make an ISO file out of it (DvdShrink didn't mess with the layer break). I used Nero to burn the resulting image, and so far it has played perfectly in our standalone. Whew!

Time to order another six-pack!

Did you use the same material as before, I mean the stuff that didn't work in DVDLab? If so, I guess DVDMaestro did a better job at authoring it. Did you just choose "Compile" and created VIDEO_TS that you imported into DVDShrink? If so, still though, I think if you want to insert a proper layer break you have to make DVDMaestro create an ISO. I'm not sure if your DVDMaestro->DVDShrink->Nero combination will work on certain players. Did you check in IFOEdit or PgcEdit on your final working DVD+R9 if there is a layer break flag? If I were you, I'd give RecordNow another try with for example making VIDEO_TS in DVDMaestro without specifying the layer break and let RecordNow handle it. I don't think the layer break chapter flag in DVDMaestro (the one where there's a little icon that looks like a broken disk) will do anything for layer break - that's I think only for your convenience - you can only finalize it for sure in Disc Image Creation properties. But I might be wrong.

Anyway, I'm glad that DVDMaestro->DVDShrink->Nero combination worked well for you.

[Frunobulax]

Hi Edmund,

I used the same demuxed files that I used with DVDLab Pro. I authored the DVD in DVDMaestro, but I couldn't create an image in DVDM because I got a message to the effect that ASPI was not installed. That's why I used DVDShrink to create the ISO. I did pull the files from the resulting ISO and check it in ifoedit and pgcedit; the layer break was undisturbed. The layer break on the final burned DVD DL was placed exactly where I had set it, so DVDM must have listened to me!

I still have a bit to learn about menu navigation with DVDM, but I'll get the hang of it.

I'm a pretty happy camper right now. A 48-year-old such as myself has no business getting this excited, but hey -- I enjoy this stuff!

[petar]

Edmund Blackadder, you're becoming quite the expert on this . Please keep on sharing your experience. It's very valuable (so when I manage to get hold of some DL media in my town, I won't be burning coasters ).

Just a note on Ifoedit, regarding Cornucopia's post. It may not show the layer break at all. The layer break can be between two cells that play as part of different titles or PGCs (where the play is non-seamless by default) so Ifoedit won't show any layer breaks in the IFO file. Don't rely on Ifoedit for the layer break. As I mentioned before, it's just making an educated guess about it. It can be right but it can be wrong.

Also, a layer break doesn't need to be between chapters. It's handy to have it there (because a new chapter is normally a new scene in the video so you won't notice the break) but you are free to have it between any two cells, even if those two cells play as part of the same chapter.

[Frunobulax]

Also, a layer break doesn't need to be between chapters. It's handy to have it there (because a new chapter is normally a new scene in the video so you won't notice the break) but you are free to have it between any two cells, even if those two cells play as part of the same chapter.

I placed the layer break on my authored DVD in a brief dark segment where I had deleted a commercial break. That way, if there *was* a quick pause at the layer break, it wouldn't be as noticeable. However, the layer break was absolutely smooth.

Also, to Edmund:
I install Adaptec's latest ASPI manager a few minutes ago, so on my next National Football League project , I'll try to create the image with DVDMaestro. And also, thanks for your advice and patience these past few days; it's really appreciated!

[Cornucopia]

Yes, DVDMaestro was designed for creating stamped ROM DVD's. But for that there's an option to output to DLT tape. If that was the only proper way to create DVD9, I don't think they would have an option to create DVD9 IMG (or ISO) images. I guess Spruce Technologies people were open-minded even back in 2001 and didn't lock into current standards, allowing future possibilities.

...

I think the physical layer break only needs to be addressed if you're planning to do pressed DVD9's. I think with the recordable format you don't have to worry about that. All DVD+R9's come with exactly the same amount of sectors per layer, so you don't have to worry about how many pits per layer you have to stamp, but only how many to record. And that is the decision according to IFO and/or burning software. In reality I might be completely wrong with these statements, but according to my accumulated experience, it seems that I could be telling at least some sort of truth. And about the warning, I don't think it's got anything to do with the buffer of the DVD player. Players with large buffers completely ignore all these non-seamless flags, just like my Sampo player. It's the players with small buffers that need these flags in order to reposition the laser while it stutters and says SEARCH for a second. If there is no stutter/Layer Br./non-seamles play programmed into the program for the layer change, these players will not know what to do next and after a long freeze hopefully spit out the disc instead of frying a laser.

...

On all my DL burns, no matter how they were done, the first layer is sector/MB size-wise larger than the first. The only thing that recording software does to make DVD+R9 compatible is it writes a dummy data to the second layer until it's even with the first.

...

Actually, not that I've ever used it, but with a proper ASPI layer installed, DVDMaestro supports my Pioneer DVR-A03 burner, though nothing else. DVR-A03 shows up as available to write to at 1x speed.

...

To be honest, I'm quite obsessive compulsive when it comes to things like that, so I would never trust to only look at HDD results. I always double and triple check things on the original DVD's as well. Also, I've never lost or added a layer break during ripping to HDD. The only times that happened was when I was doing recompressing with various DVD9 to DVD5 tools when loosing a layer change flag is actually a good thing. Otherwise, I never even remove PUO's because that might screw up something.

1. I'm pretty sure that the IMG/ISO creation tool was put there to facilitate troubleshooting via disc emulation (aka virtual discs, such as daemontools). In the pro world, part of the production cycle would be this very thing--foregoing an ACTUAL glass master, but still fairly acurately testing the disc capabilties (including DVD-9/18 features).

2. I think the layer break thing that you mentioned pretty much goes along with what I was trying to say.

3. Aaahh! Now, THAT makes good sense (fill w/ dummy data to equalize)
Sorry if I didn't connect with that concept before.

4. My mistake, you are right in that the A03/103 was the last recognized model, not the S201. It came out just a few months before Apple bought Maestro, IIRC.

5. That's really heartening to hear that you are so thorough. Allows us to put more faith in your experiment's conclusions... 8)

more later...

Scott

[tommyoz]

I have been keeping up with this thread since the begining. I finally got my hands on some more DL media. Like I stated earlier I have used CopytoDVD.

I just purchased the movie Johnson Family Vacation and decided to do a backup. I viewed the recorded copy entirely and found no problems with layer break. It played flawless. I plan on making some more backups and even though CopytoDVD is working for me, I will also try others that say they support DL. I just have to find the time and the source.

[Edmund Blackadder]

I have been keeping up with this thread since the begining. I finally got my hands on some more DL media. Like I stated earlier I have used CopytoDVD.

I just purchased the movie Johnson Family Vacation and decided to do a backup. I viewed the recorded copy entirely and found no problems with layer break. It played flawless.

To each his own DL burning program 8) . Tommyoz prefers CopytoDVD, Frunobulax seems to like Nero better and Edmund Blackadder swears by RecordNow 7.2.

Anyway, you should use whatever works for you. However, since the origin of this post was based of the Superbit title "Bram Stoker's Dracula" with seamless layer break and its DL backup issues with Pioneer DVD players, I must still say the following:

If you want to make a DL backup of an NTSC Superbit title and make sure it's compatible with all DVD players that support DVD+R9 (naturally with DVD-ROM bitsetting), the only two ways to go:

1 - Hard Way - Reauthor the DVD with your favourite authoring program .
2 - Easy Way - DVDDecrypt the files in File Mode to VIDEO_TS folder and then simply burn it in RecordNow 7.2, which will take care of the proper layer break. None other program will. Nero certainly won't.

Of course, in no way I'm trying to force RecordNow 7.2 onto other people, it's just that for me it works the best, as its earlier versions has always worked perfect for me. And the fact that RecordNow so rarely gets updated, among other things, also means that it has a lot less bugs than Nero. And for cuesheet Audio CD burning I use Nero quite a lot and like it for that feature. It's just that DVD is not Nero's strongest point at this time. Hopefully it will change in the future.

[Frunobulax]

Edmund:

Don't worry, my friend -- I'm not giving up on Recordnow 7.2. I'll try it again when I have the time and I can experiment a bit.

BTW, Fedex delivered another SonyStyle 6-pack this morning.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Edmund:

Don't worry, my friend -- I'm not giving up on Recordnow 7.2. I'll try it again when I have the time and I can experiment a bit.

BTW, Fedex delivered another SonyStyle 6-pack this morning.

No problemo, Frunobulax! Good luck burning your next 6-pack

Meanwhile, I'll just dream about my next 6-pack, that I will get at some point in the near future. It will definitely be burned in this application:

[tommyoz]

However, since the origin of this post was based of the Superbit title "Bram Stoker's Dracula" with seamless layer break and its DL backup issues with Pioneer DVD players

Ah, I guess I wasn't paying that much attention after all. I forgot about the superbit. They are pretty expensive you know. I will give it a shot.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Ah, I guess I wasn't paying that much attention after all. I forgot about the superbit. They are pretty expensive you know. I will give it a shot.

You're right. They are expensive! So it's still cheaper to do a $9 DVD+R9 backup than to buy a second pressed Superbit copy for $20+.

[jimmalenko]

Good golly. This thread has reinforced my decision to steer well clear of DL for at least another 12 months. By then you pioneers should have everything sorted out, complete with guides

Good luck people.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Good golly. This thread has reinforced my decision to steer well clear of DL for at least another 12 months. By then you pioneers should have everything sorted out, complete with guides

Oh, come on jimmalenko, join us! It's fun to be a pioneer!
Maybe you could in the end squeeze this 3-page thread into a nice and compact guide on DL burning!

[jimmalenko]

Good golly. This thread has reinforced my decision to steer well clear of DL for at least another 12 months. By then you pioneers should have everything sorted out, complete with guides

Oh, come on jimmalenko, join us! It's fun to be a pioneer!
Maybe you could in the end squeeze this 3-page thread into a nice and compact guide on DL burning!

Thanks for the offer.

The key issues I have with DL at the moment are playback compatibility (no-one really knows just yet) and the price of media. $10 is one expensive coaster.

... and I hate + with a passion


Considering my only uses for DVDR's are for backing up commercial DVDs (Movie Only with DVDShrink) or for authoring captured content, 4.7GB is generally enough for me to achieve the results I desire. Give it 12 months when DL media is down to about $3 a disc and I'll revisit my decision.

Don't let me deter anyone though.

[Frunobulax]

[quote="jimmalenkoThe key issues I have with DL at the moment are playback compatibility (no-one really knows just yet) and the price of media. $10 is one expensive coaster.[/quote]

Heh -- I know -- I just burned two coasters this morning. The second one was entirely my fault, since I forgot to convert the DVD files to an ISO image before using Nero...

[Edmund Blackadder]

Heh -- I know -- I just burned two coasters this morning. The second one was entirely my fault, since I forgot to convert the DVD files to an ISO image before using Nero...

And what about the first coaster What happened there?

[tommyoz]

You're right. They are expensive! So it's still cheaper to do a $9 DVD+R9 backup than to buy a second pressed Superbit copy for $20+.

That would justify buying DL media for the recent price for making a backup. So much so that I even went out and bought a Superbit DVD today and guess what I purchased? you guessed it Bram Stoker's "Dracula". I went to my local DVD store and this was the only title they had. It's now in the process of being ripped.

Edmund Blackadder. my question to you is this, at what point in the movie were you having a problem?

[Edmund Blackadder]

That would justify buying DL media for the recent price for making a backup. So much so that I even went out and bought a Superbit DVD today and guess what I purchased? you guessed it Bram Stoker's "Dracula". I went to my local DVD store and this was the only title they had. It's now in the process of being ripped.

Wow! That's cool.

Edmund Blackadder. my question to you is this, at what point in the movie were you having a problem?

Well, since I also added a few scanned TARGA files of DVD cover and inserts you may have a layer transition in a slightly different spot, but I had a problem at 63min 37sec point in the movie. This is also the exact same spot where RecordNow 7.2 placed a proper flag in IFO. The break is right after Mina talks to ill Lucy and before there's wine pouring into a glass.

Try to copy it the way you usually do and see if in the resulting IFO there's a layer break (there is none on the Superbit DVD). If not, and you don't have an older DVD player (like Pioneer of about 2 years or older) then take it to your local electronics store and see how many players freeze at that 63:37 point. Some will and some won't. RecordNow on the other hand, as you already know, has resolved that issue for me. And don't forget to do the bitsetting.

[tommyoz]

Hang in there with me I am trying a bunch of things. I can tell you now is that I do not see any freezing around that point. I guess I would have to watch the entire movie to check and see. What I'm having trouble with is the menu when it starts. The DVD starts fine but when it gets to the menu selection the screen quickly goes away. I have to select menu then it comes back but then goes away. This is happening in some of the DVD players I have. Most of my players are old.

I now have to step out for some Pizza. It's my turn for dinner tonight. My wife gets home late. I will continue tonight. Oh and by the way, how do I use IFOEdit to check for flagging? I'm not too familiar with this program.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Hang in there with me I am trying a bunch of things. I can tell you now is that I do not see any freezing around that point. I guess I would have to watch the entire movie to check and see.

I'm assuming you're talking already about the DL burned version of the film, right? Just watch Chapter 13 in its entirety, so you don't have to watch the whole movie (which is a great movie anyway ). Layer break should be within Chapter 13 if it's not exactly at 63:37 point in your case.

Oh and by the way, how do I use IFOEdit to check for flagging? I'm not too familiar with this program.

In IFOEdit click on Open button, then find "DS Dracula's" VIDEO_TS folder and open VTS_01_0.IFO file. Once it's opened, in the lower window look for PGC_1 (program chain) listing. There you will see all the chapters in the main movie title listed. Now, if you scroll down and don't see something that says Layer Br., then your burning software did not insert a layer break flag. There's a good chance that it will play perfectly on your DVD players, but it doesn't mean that 1/3 of other players on the market will not freeze at 63:37 spot. Here's my previous example - on top is the original IFO that plays OK if it's on pressed media, but freezes on Pioneers if it's on recordable media - and on the bottom is what RecordNow did to resolve the situation:




Still, I'm amazed how the Superbit pressed version can switch between layers absolutely seamlessly (no Layer Br. is visible in IFOEdit as well on Superbit) even on my Pioneers, but the same clone on DVD+R9 will not go through, unless there was an intervention from the mighty powers of RecordNow 7.2. There must be some wizardry involved that I have to find out about and learn.

[tommyoz]

Ok, some interesting findings indeed. I watched chapters 12 and 13 with no problem no freezing. However, when I fast forward at that time 63:37 there is some very heavy pixelation going on for aboout 5 seconds. There is also no layer break mention in IFO edit of the copies that I made with both CopytoDVD and IMGTools/DVD Decrypter. I still can't understand why I can't access the root menu. This superbit thing is causing quite a stir.

I went back to check the 2 previous non superbit backups that I did(Grease and Johnson family vacation) and noticed that the copies did have a layer break on both of them according to IFOEdit. In other words CopytoDVD did put them there. It just didn't put the layer break for the superbit version and obviously there was some playback issues.

[Edmund Blackadder]

I went back to check the 2 previous non superbit backups that I did(Grease and Johnson family vacation) and noticed that the copies did have a layer break on both of them according to IFOEdit. In other words CopytoDVD did put them there. It just didn't put the layer break for the superbit version and obviously there was some playback issues.

That's the thing, Tommyoz. Neither CopytoDVD nor DVDDecrypter will insert a layer break if it's needed. The layer breaks that your see on backups of "Grease" and "Johnson..." are not generated by CopytoDVD, but are on the original pressed versions of those movies, authored into their IFO files. All CopytoDVD did was just a proper preservation of what was already there. Simply take a look at your original pressed DVD's of those two films and you will see that the Layer Br. will stand in the exact same places on both the original and the copy.

That's why I'm prasing RecordNow 7.2 so much, as if I were Sonic's sales person! - it simply knows when there's something non-conforming in IFO file to DL standards, and if so it will fix it (as you've seen in my screenshot of IFOEdit). As of now none other DL burning programs seem to do the same. That's why I will stick with RecordNow 7.2. Thanks for doing this experiment though! It confirmed what I've been thinking so far.

P.S.: By the way I did try CopytoDVD, but while it was installed my system was quite unstable. Also I didn't like the fact that I could not add anything to video compilation except the VIDEO_TS folder. I usually add at least the scanned artwork of the disc, so I can reprint it later, if needed.

[tommyoz]

My friend, you don't get any argument from me. That is what's happening.
So in order to avoid this problem, is to not buy superbit. or,
I know use recordnow 7.2

[tommyoz]

Another interesting situation I came across. I wanted to backup Cheech & Chong's - Nice Dreams. The interesting thing is that it does not contain any layer break. This DVD version has both full screen and widescreen versions. This is probably the reason why, I don't know. Decided to give it a try with CopytoDVD and I got the same thing I was getting with the Supertbit version of Bram Stoker's - Dracula. No layer break and it did not work.

I decide to find an update for CopytoDVD. I installed it and tried one more time. This time it inserted the layer break and everything worked fine. I am going to give Dracula one more try as well to see if it works this time.

[Frunobulax]

I went back to check the 2 previous non superbit backups that I did(Grease and Johnson family vacation) and noticed that the copies did have a layer break on both of them according to IFOEdit. In other words CopytoDVD did put them there. It just didn't put the layer break for the superbit version and obviously there was some playback issues.

That's the thing, Tommyoz. Neither CopytoDVD nor DVDDecrypter will insert a layer break if it's needed. The layer breaks that your see on backups of "Grease" and "Johnson..." are not generated by CopytoDVD, but are on the original pressed versions of those movies, authored into their IFO files. All CopytoDVD did was just a proper preservation of what was already there. Simply take a look at your original pressed DVD's of those two films and you will see that the Layer Br. will stand in the exact same places on both the original and the copy.

That's why I'm prasing RecordNow 7.2 so much, as if I were Sonic's sales person! - it simply knows when there's something non-conforming in IFO file to DL standards, and if so it will fix it (as you've seen in my screenshot of IFOEdit). As of now none other DL burning programs seem to do the same. That's why I will stick with RecordNow 7.2. Thanks for doing this experiment though! It confirmed what I've been thinking so far.

P.S.: By the way I did try CopytoDVD, but while it was installed my system was quite unstable. Also I didn't like the fact that I could not add anything to video compilation except the VIDEO_TS folder. I usually add at least the scanned artwork of the disc, so I can reprint it later, if needed.

I'm still not sure what Recordnow 7.2 does with authored DVD content, though. I can see it work with commercial movie DVDs, but I'm still trying to come to grips with it concerning my own DVD projects.

[tommyoz]

Now it's getting rather interesting. I ripped and burned (with CopytoDVD updated) Dracula (superbit) again. This time Ifoedit does not mention anything about a layer break but the movie plays just fine. I haven't watched the entire movie but now I will have to just to make sure all is ok. I did watch chapter 12 and 13 with no problem. The menu problem I stated earlier is also working fine now.

[tommyoz]

One last thing I forgot to mention, this is for Edmund Blackadder.
It does appear that you can now add other files with Video and Audio TS folders. Not that your gonna go out and use this program cause I know that you are set on RecordNow. I just thought I'd let you know.

[Edmund Blackadder]

One last thing I forgot to mention, this is for Edmund Blackadder.
It does appear that you can now add other files with Video and Audio TS folders. Not that your gonna go out and use this program cause I know that you are set on RecordNow. I just thought I'd let you know.

Thanks Tommyoz for the update on CopytoDVD's abilities. Though you're right, I'm pretty much set on RecordNow, as I was since 2001.

And regarding the Widescreen/Full Screen DVD9's, yes usually each version is on its own layer, so there is no need for the layer break instructions. Oftentimes those DVD9's are actually in Parallel Tracking Path format instead of Opposite Tracking Path (DVD+R9 is always OTP).

From your words it seems that the engine was improved in CopytoDVD update, but it still doesn't insert anything into IFO's.

I'm still not sure what Recordnow 7.2 does with authored DVD content, though. I can see it work with commercial movie DVDs, but I'm still trying to come to grips with it concerning my own DVD projects.

Frunobulax, have you already tried burning VIDEO_TS (not ISO) that you authored in DVDMaestro in RecordNow 7.2 yet? I haven't tried that yet. I still only have one blank DVD+R DL that I don't want to use just yet.

I'm jealous of the British, as they now seem to have more variety and better deals on DVD+R DL that people in States. I see that one store in UK carries Datasafe DVD+R DL for only 3.98 pounds a piece including all taxes! Even after the conversion to $ it's still cheaper than $9 from SonyStyle! And I'm not even talking about other, more expensive places in the US.

[Frunobulax]

[quote="Edmund BlackadderFrunobulax, have you already tried burning VIDEO_TS (not ISO) that you authored in [url=https://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=8#comments]DVDMaestro[/url] in RecordNow 7.2 yet? I haven't tried that yet. I still only have one blank DVD+R DL that I don't want to use just yet.
quote]

I tried burning the VIDEO_TS in Recordnow 7.2, using the "create or append to a data disk" option, but the layer break got all changed around.

I think I have my process working now, however, and I need to write the steps down tonight, partly so I'll remember to follow them all!