DVD+R9 Double Layer first burn: problems with layer switch

[dimad]

Also DVD Remake Pro, using the method by Edmund Blackadder, changes the video. The audio gets lower and the picture becomes washed out when I played with WinDVD.

DvdReMake does not even touch video, so it must be something else.

[DVWannaB]

It could not possibly be anything else. DVD Remake Pro is the only tool I used to implement layer break. I followed the directions on your site (linked above) using Step 1 only. After which, I played the file from its folder in WinDVD and without a doubt something changed. It was an old black and white movie from TCM that I recorded on my DVD recorder in XP mode and authored in DVD-lab Studio. When I played my DVD-lab authored video, it was as it is supposed to be. The DVDRemake Pro version was altered. Volume went way down and video was washed out.

I wish it were different as I am not trying to go out of my way to pan your work. Sounds like a great and useful tool. It is as it is and it did not work for me. If I did something wrong, please correct me, as I am a willing student. As it now stands, I will not be using RecordNow Premier or DVDRemake Pro, as I have found a tool that works for my DL burning needs and is free. I should have used the free tools first. But cest la vie. You win some and you lose some.

[greymalkin]

i'm having trouble understanding what the difficulty is with the layer break and why all these special tools are being used. I just figured out the length of the video...found the halfway point and set a chapter point about 30 seconds after that...is that oversimplifying things? did i just get lucky?

[Edmund Blackadder]

The only thing that DVDReMake Pro sometimes does weird in some of my instances is that the time code gets jumpy when you FF or RW after the cell split spot. But that's only on my old RealMagic MPEG2 card. On other players there weren't any problems. But it does not change the video nor the audio. Never happened to me. I know it doesn't touch it, because if it did then it would take ages on my old 500Mhz desktop to finish the job, but it only took a slightly higher that normal HDD to HDD transfer times.

As for the pause at the layer break spot, some players will exhibit it and some won't. Some will require the layer break flag in IFO and some won't. However this flag (which translates into a pause in some DVD players) is a part of DVD9 specification and must be observed in order to be 100% compatible. The best way to find out if your player exhibits the pause and how long it should normally last is to take a pressed Hollywood OTP DVD9 (PTP will have different times) and see how your player behaves. If let's say your pause is 1 second long on pressed DVD9's and also 1 second long on your own properly authored and burned DVD+R DL's then you're most likely doing everything correctly. If on the other hand your DVD+R DL doesn't have any pause on that particular player (even if it goes through the break OK) then you did not burn a compatible DL disc. Many players will get stuck on that sort of a layer change.

To greymalkin. The chapter marker 30 seconds after the halfway point is fine (unless you're really tightly packed your DVD9 all the way up to 8152MB) if you're making your own compilation and your burning application knows how to turn that chapter point into a LBr flag. Most won't (including ImgBurn), unless you explicitly tell it to do so. Why I like RecordNow so much it's because in such scenario it will make it automatic if everything else is in the correct order. By the way for DVD+R DL RecordNow 8 is just as good as RecordNow 7.3 - I tested it with success.

There's so much confusion and wrong information about handling of the layer break out there. It's mostly because of the variety of differences of how different DVD players handle this. I have several players, including the early Pioneers which are particularly picky about the layer break flag. I will not consider a burned DVD+R DL a success until it passes through the layer break on all my different players. The results and findings that I have posted in this thread are the ones that work on all of my players. If the incorrect method that some of you may choose to go with just because it perhaps doesn't introduce a split second pause or other convenience features is fine by me as long as it works for you. However, please keep in mind that if you ever are going to distribute your DVD+R DL creations to several other people and get some complaints about freezing in the middle of the disc - just remember this thread and countless warnings that you may have ignored. If I was a customer and got such an improperly authored DVD+R DL I would demand a total refund and not use that company again, just because they didn't do their homework . And I'm being dead serious.

[DVWannaB]

Why I like RecordNow so much it's because in such scenario it will make it automatic if everything else is in the correct order. By the way for DVD+R DL RecordNow 8 is just as good as RecordNow 7.3 - I tested it with success.

Edmund,

What do you mean when you say "......everything else is in correct order......."? I am willing to test and use RecordNow 8 again for DL burning. So if I read your post correctly, if I dont use DVD Remake Pro, RecordNow 8 will automatically put in the LB in the correct location? No? I am using DVD-lab Studio. Is there anything special I need to do during authoring? For example, put a chapter mark at or close to halfway point OR 3.9 GB point OR no special authoring required?

I ask these questions for a number of reasons. In DVD-lab Studio, when I select DVD9, on the timeline there is a blue bar that covers about a 20 minute interval that I assume is the program indicating possible points for a layer break. In the past I have not put chapter points within that region. Thanks.

[robertazimmerman]

Please excuse my ignorance if this has already been answered, but how can I tell where the layer break is on a disc? I burned a few dual layer discs and want to test them on my DVD players without having to play them all from the begining.

Thanks!

R

[VegasBud]

If you want to set the layer break easily, reliably, and with flexibility, using freeware only, you should really try the recommendations by -jsl-, grill1968, and retiredjoker in this thread by using PgcEdit to make an iso, followed by burning with ImgBurn. The newest version of PgcEdit even makes it easy to split a cell, if needed to put in a proper layer break, by recommending which cell to split. Then all you have to do is split the cell in VobBlanker, and go back to PgcEdit and set the layer break.

[pstedman]

To find your layer break download the tool IFOedit from the tools section and use it to open your DL DVD. It will list where the layer break occurs quite plainly.

I use it to do exactly what you're looking to do.

[Edmund Blackadder]

What do you mean when you say "......everything else is in correct order......."? I am willing to test and use RecordNow 8 again for DL burning.

DVWannaB, as you have already guessed it, yes, by "everything else is in correct order" I meant that you must have either one or more chapter marks and/or one or more cells somewhere between the middle point and the 3.98GB point on the DVD9. If you have them, then RecordNow will automatically select one of those markers and align a layer break to it. If you want more control though, then open your compilation in PgcEdit and choose one of those middle-to-3.98GB chapters/cells and flag it as a layer break. RecordNow then will align the physical layer break to that point. I described this procedure in extensive detail a few pages back in this thread. And remember to only burn as VIDEO_TS folder in Data Mode. Do not create an image. If you have a well prepared image (say from DVDMaestro or DVD-Lab) that's got an embedded layer break information then ImgBurn is your best friend.

Robertazimmerman, as pstedman said, IfoEdit is great to see where your layer break is (except for Superbit DVD's). You just may have to open a few titles before you find one. Also, there will most likely be more than one "LBr." signs. Generally "LBr." meant non-seamless play. The real proper layer break is a physical layer change that is coupled with non-seampless play. But you will most likely find it with no problems because most of the times it's in the longest title and often starts with a new cell on many Hollywood DVD's (more often than with a new chapter). Alternatively you could also use PgcEdit to check out the layer break position, though it's more complex (but will show you more useful information). But on the improperly authopred DVD9 you will most likely not see any layer break flags. And that is a bad sign.

[VegasBud]

If you're setting the layer break in PgcEdit ("...for more control..."), why wouldn't you just let PgcEdit go ahead and generate the iso? PgcEdit certainly creates "...a well prepared image...that's got an embedded layer break information", and by the time you set the layer break in PgcEdit, you're only a couple of clicks away from having a completed iso, ready for ImgBurn.

And remember to only burn as VIDEO_TS folder in Data Mode.

Aren't you worried about potentially having all or part of an IFO and its' associated BUP file in the same ECC block? One of the reasons I like PgcEdit for producing the iso is that it has an option to ensure a 32k gap.

[Edmund Blackadder]

If you're setting the layer break in PgcEdit ("...for more control..."), why wouldn't you just let PgcEdit go ahead and generate the iso? PgcEdit certainly creates "...a well prepared image...that's got an embedded layer break information", and by the time you set the layer break in PgcEdit, you're only a couple of clicks away from having a completed iso, ready for ImgBurn.

Because it's faster to simply mark the IFO with a new flag, re-save just the IFO's and BUP's and burn VIDEO_TS folder right away in RecordNow. Saves time and produces 100% compliant burns. Besides, I also like to be adding a few MB's of artwork (cover scans) to DL burns to the DVD-ROM part of the disc, which RecordNow handles beautifully (if it's not too big on a tightly packed disc). Try that with ISO-to-ISO with either ImgBurn or PgcEdit and all the layer break balance will go down the toilet (unless you painstakingly calculate the correct sector of where the split needs to occur, if it's even possible).

And remember to only burn as VIDEO_TS folder in Data Mode.

Aren't you worried about potentially having all or part of an IFO and its' associated BUP file in the same ECC block? One of the reasons I like PgcEdit for producing the iso is that it has an option to ensure a 32k gap.

I think this whole 32k gap is a bigger hype than it really is. But even if it is so important, then I have never had an issue because of it. Also, how do you know for sure that your properly prepared ISO with a 32k gap was not screwed up during the ISO burning? Is your burning application aware of your ISO programming to avoid putting IFO and BUP into the same ECC block? Is there a sure way to prove that it was burned as you wished? Please elaborate, because I may want to see if my burns have a proper spacing between those files.

On the other hand I have never had a disc burned by RecordNow 7.3 or later that was unplayable or had some weird issues (except for one time when I forgot to remove the PgcEdit backup folder from the inside of the VIDEO_TS folder). RN just won't screw me up, neither with SL nor DL. Prassi engine coupled with Sonic's experience in professional DVD authoring field shows in this product (Man, you would think that I'm their salesman!). I have been creating DVD's for several clients, and not once in the last 3 years has anybody ever told me that they had playback problems. And my new limited DL distribution runs continue that trend. And even though ISO burning with programs like ImgBurn has gotten better in the last couple of years, still, sometimes ISO burning (especially of the ISO's made in the experimental manner) does produce some weird result that may require a beginning to end viewing to find that out. I make part of my income relying on a quality authoring/burning solution, and so far RN did not fail me. Why should I fix what ain't broken?

The only program that I will trust making a home-brewed ISO's (especially for DVD9) for burning with ImgBurn is DVDMaestro. The rest of the smaller programs at this stage are too dangerous to consider for the limited number commercial distribution, especially when your reputation hangs on it. There's just always some doubt when a program has so many new versions coming out, almost once every couple of weeks. What if there's a new bug introduced and I don't know about it? I cannot afford that sort of risk. Sure, it's great for playing around, but not for real life. I may be the minority with my methods of DVD authoring and recording, but I usually research and test hard and long before comitting to something, often going against eveybody else's opinion. And once I find something that is perfect, I'm not about to challenge it with something just because it's new, cool and popular. Not when the money is involved. I'll let the competitors use those cool toys and fail, while I continue producing consistent quality results. No matter how good and creative your work is, if it doesn't play right - you might as well quit the business.

To sum it up: I'm not trying to prevent anybody from using their own methods. But I'm not about to apply them to my work nor promote them to others, because I don't know of the outcome of those methods on a broad range of the playback hardware. It's as simple as that.

[VegasBud]

Besides, I also like to be adding a few MB's of artwork (cover scans) to DL burns to the DVD-ROM part of the disc...

Thanks for the explanation. Since I've never included anything but the required dvd files, I have no experience with that, but if that's what you want to do, and you've found a system to accomplish the task, then it sounds good to me.

I think this whole 32k gap is a bigger hype than it really is. But even if it is so important, then I have never had an issue because of it.

You might want to take a look at this article at NewCyberian.com (a wholesale dvd replicator/duplicator) about making a professional dvd suitable for use as a master. "Not enough space between IFOs and BUPs" is the first dvd authoring mistake listed. Here's just a brief quote from the article:

...your disc will still play without any problems until some day the area containing the IFO file is scratched or damaged. DVD players will try to recover the damaged data from the backup sector, i.e the .BUP file. But if there is not enough space separating between the IFO and the BUF file, chances are the same scratch that damages the IFO sectors also damages the BUP sectors rendering the DVD totally useless.

At the end of the section, where is says "The article here will be your solution", it links to an article here at videohelp.com (written by Blutach) titled "How to burn ISO images with PgcEdit ensuring 32k gaps between IFOs and BUPs".

Also, how do you know for sure that your properly prepared ISO with a 32k gap was not screwed up during the ISO burning? Is your burning application aware of your ISO programming to avoid putting IFO and BUP into the same ECC block?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. The iso itself contains the disk layout. If the burning program works correctly, the burned disk should be precisely what the iso specified. I would be amazed if ImgBurn doesn't accurately burn an iso. If you're talking about Nero, then, yes it can be a problem. As the referenced article points out:

When you use Nero to burn an ISO file, NERO will try to help you conserve space by packing all the files tightly and disobey the original ISO layout. The consequence of this is: The CRC Error Protection designed for DVD might be broken.

To anyone who's interested, the article referenced above is very interesting reading for newbies and pros alike. For newbies, there's section "3.1 Free Solutions" which not only lists the pros and cons of various freeware programs, it then walks you through the creation of a dvd from start to end using those programs. For pros, the "Common Mistakes" and "DVD Replication & Duplication" are worth a scan.

[MaxBlack]

...the article referenced above is very interesting reading...

Very nice reference, VegasBud--thanks!

[VegasBud]

To anyone interested in trying/using PgcEdit-ImgBurn to setup and burn their dual layer disks, blutach has updated his guide "How to burn Dual Layer Disks with PgcEdit" to Version 2 (updated for PgcEdit v7.2). Version 7.3 of PgcEdit was just released today, so the information in the guide is literally almost up to the minute.

The guide not only steps you through the entire process, but also explains why you are doing it that way, lets you know your options, and offers valuable tips. It's easy to read, and an indispensible reference.

[VegasBud]

There is now another, easier way to successfully burn dual layer disks. ImgBurn version 2 is now available, and includes both an option to automatically ensure 32k gaps between IFO-BUP pairs, and a function to set the layer break with flexibility. Also, you don't have to create an ISO anymore, as ImgBurn now also works on VIDEO_TS, AUDIO_TS structures directly.

[Edmund Blackadder]

This post has been transfered from this thread at the request of VegasBud:
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=306257&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

----------------

Fly #1: Burning a dvd using data mode
The files on a dvd-video disk must be written in a specific sequence that data mode almost certainly won't achieve. It's a crap shoot at best. Ask anyone who has tried to use Folder2Iso to burn a dvd-video disk.

Yes, but that's the beauty of the Prassi/Sonic engine - it is very DVD-Video conscious when burning VIDEO_TS folders. As I already said, it's very picky to the compilation, and won't burn unless it's fully compliant. It puts all the files in the correct, compliant order (even when adding DVD-ROM content, which I do most of the times). In my 5 years of DVD burning I've yet to discover a DVD-R/DVD+R/DVD+R DL that was burned in Data Mode with Prassi/Sonic engine that would refuse to play or go bad over time on scratched discs because of the lack of 32k gaps. Which means that with the combination of DVDMaestro output, file order and most likely the respect to 32k gaps, there's absolutely nothing wrong with Data Mode when using Prassi/Sonic engine. So, while your theory might be correct for other programs, it's not the case with Prassi/Sonic.

Fly #2: Lack of 32k gaps
In the other thread, I provided this link to NewCyberian.com (a wholesale dvd replicator/duplicator) about making a professional dvd suitable for use as a master. "Not enough space between IFOs and BUPs" is the first dvd authoring mistake listed. The solution the link recommends is using PgcEdit, following blutach's guide.

Well, since it's an authoring mistake, then I have nothing to worry about, because DVDMaestro outputs big enough empty VOB files (when there's no menus) between IFO and BUP, and RecordNow burns them in the correct order. So, naturally, there are way-over-32k gaps on my DVD's. And if I decide to do IMG file output from Maestro, the same happens when burning the image with ImgBurn.

Maybe your guess is correct, maybe not. I assumed, based on a post I read, that ImgTools Classic ensured 32k gaps. In reality, it doesn't, the post I read was wrong, and my assumption (based on that post) was wrong. The facts, as I've been able to determine by testing, is there are exactly two programs that properly handle a 32k gap, PgcEdit and the new version of ImgBurn.

But see that's the difference. All the free tools authors can only make an educated guess at what's right and what's not, and so the people who use them and analize their output. On the other hand, Sonic does develop industry standard DVD authoring software, and I absolutely don't see how their burning engine would be of any lesser compliance. The consistency of my output and no returns from my customers means that I'm probably correct in this assumption.

While you're probably right that a disk sector reading program would work to determine the order, it's sounds painful and laborious. A real world test is good enough for me. A dvd wouldn't work if the files are out of sequence. If the dvd works correctly, the sequence is correct.

Same here, if I my authoring software (DVDMaestro) generates 32k+ VOB files, and Prassi/Sonic engine burns the DVD's in Data Mode that are playable - I have nothing to worry about :P .

As to your questions about PTP and OTP, I don't really understand the questions. The only burnable dvd's use OTP. The DVD-R DL specification lists PTP as available, but I've never heard of a single person creating a useable disk using it. Actually, I've not seen DVD-R DL referenced in the same sentence as the words "reliable" or "consistent", even when using OTP. To all of us, here, OTP is all there is. If you mean the source disk was recorded using PTP, then the layer break is incorrect for OTP, and must be reset, in the standard way, with no special treatment needed.

Sorry for not being clear. Yes, I meant copying the PTP content. As of now, it's virtually impossible to make a 100% workable PTP->OTP backup, unless you split one of the large cells in the middle section of DVD9. Reading into ISO with DVD Decrypter and writing it with ImgBurn (the preferred backup method of many) would always lead to a messed up layer break. So, while it is technically an authoring issue (because of a different tracking format), I was just asking if anything has been done about it in the new version of ImgBurn. After all, it can accept VIDEO_TS folders now, so while at it I thought perhaps it did something about properly preparing the PTP-based source material.

My larger scale point is that, while most people say that ISO Read -> ISO Write with DVD Decrypter/ImgBurn is a 100% compatible way to make DVD9 backups - it really is only for OTP DVD's. There are still considerable amounts of PTP DVD's made and I seem to be the only one raising the issue that ISO Read -> ISO Write is not the solution for for their backup. There are still many DVD players that do care about the layer break and they will most certainly not like this type of a backup. I'm just raising the awareness about this issue, though it seems to largely go unnoticed. Anyway, I will try your suggestion of VobBlanker the next time I come across of a need to backup a PTP disc. We'll see how it handles splitting cells while still retaining the compatibility of a DVD9.

[VegasBud]

Edmund Blackadder,

Thank you for your cooperation. I appreciate it.

Which means that with the combination of DVDMaestro output, file order and most likely the respect to 32k gaps, there's absolutely nothing wrong with Data Mode when using Prassi/Sonic engine. So, while your theory might be correct for other programs, it's not the case with Prassi/Sonic.

I'm having quite a bit of trouble finding out very much at all about Dvd Maestro, which is a key component of your system. It appears that it was made by Spruce Technologies, who used to have a web site that's now a dead end. Many of the Google links for it no longer work. The last web info I can find for it is a fragment of a guide written over two years ago. Even ebay has zero links. I'm going to have to go way out on a limb, and guess it hasn't been available for quite some time.

If you're happy with it, that's all that really counts, but it does mean that I have no means of investigating what it does, or why it does it that way, and how it does it. It also means that, unless someone already has a copy of the software, they aren't going to be able to use your system.

The other key component for your system, RecordNow, at least currently is made by Roxio, and appears to be more keyed to cd burning than dvd. One review characterized it as "aimed at the quick and easy burning market". In the specifications for it, I can't find anything that would allow it to do what no other burning package I've ever used can do, burn a dvd-video set of files as data and have the resulting disk work (even in a remotely consistent manner). That's saying quite a bit, because over the years I've tried dozens of different burning programs. The only way it could do that is if the files were arranged in the proper order, and there is no burning program made that re-arranges files when burning in data mode. In video-dvd mode, yes. In data mode, no.

While you seem like an honest enough guy, what you're saying contradicts all my personal experience with dvd's, which goes back several years, and cd's before that. The most likely reality is that some unidentified mechanism is at work that is allowing you to get consistently good results, when all you should be getting is the world's largest collection of coasters.

...I have nothing to worry about, because DVDMaestro outputs big enough empty VOB files (when there's no menus) between IFO and BUP...

Every authoring program I've used attempts to minimize the dvd space used. Not one of them adds a single byte that the author doesn't specifically put in. Here again, without any data available for DvdMaestro on the internet, I've just got to take your word for it.

All the free tools authors can only make an educated guess at what's right and what's not, and so the people who use them and analize their output.

I don't know what bad experience you've had that gives you such a low opinion of free/donationware software, but you are completely wrong. Just one example would be the NewCyberian.com link I posted above. They specifically mention one program, and only one program, to ensure 32k gaps. That program is PgcEdit (freeware) and the guide for how to do it was written by blutach (for free). NewCyberian is telling potential customers to use it because it works, which makes NewCyberian's job easier. That same link, a different part of the page, details how to produce a dvd using nothing but freeware/donationware/shareware. This is information they're giving to potential customers. They would have to be crazy to encourage customers to use methods that will give results that cause themselves all kinds of problems when the dvd is submitted for replication/duplication.

As to "problems with PTP recorded source disks", the only problem is the layer break, which can be correctly set with either PgcEdit or ImgBurn v2 (both free/donationware). Those are the only reliable ways to do it on already authored material. If there isn't a cell start in the useable layer break area, PgcEdit will even tell you which specific cell you need to split to get the layer break. Then it's just a matter of using the VobBlanker (freeware) "Split Cell" function to safely, reliably, and flexibly split the cell PgcEdit told you to split. Re-open the dvd fileset in PgcEdit or ImgBurn v2, select the now available layer break point, and let it burn.

[MaxBlack]

Hmmm, I think maybe you guys ought to "give it a rest"! My impulse was to jump on VegasBud for coming-in here and trashing RecordNow, but then it seems he hasn't directly done that; he's only said AFAICT that ImgBurn "is now another, easier way to successfully burn dual layer disks" which is certainly fair given the title of this thread.

Not sure why you guys want to have a "urinating contest" in not one, but two threads!?

[VegasBud]

MaxBlack,

I guess one man's "...contest" is another man's discussion. As far as I can tell, we've been politely and rationally discussing the relative merits, and flaws, of different ways of addressing problems with dual layer burning, and layer breaks. That's the topic of this thread.

This discussion is in two threads only because I specifically asked Edmund Blackadder if we could move the non-ImgBurn part of the discussion into this thread, and he graciously consented. Right or wrong, I felt it had gone beyond the scope of the topic in the ImgBurn thread, and this portion of the discussion would be more on topic here. If there's any fault in that, I'm the one to blame, not Edmund Blackadder.

[MaxBlack]

OK, well I don't really mean to be a jerk--I've just found my eyes glazing over trying to follow you guys. I have just two observations FWthey'reW:

1. "For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert!"

2. Let the market decide.

You are now free to move about the cabin...

[royphil345]

I think Kurupter00 has it right... There is no big-business that wants to help you illegally copy video DVDs.

This won't stop people from developing the software to do it easily and flawlessly, just like the dual to single layers we've been making. Give 'em a little more time... LOL...

By the time I figure out how to make a flawless DL copy... They'll be a program out that does it automatically...

[Edmund Blackadder]

Edmund Blackadder,

Thank you for your cooperation. I appreciate it.

No problemo VegasBud!

I'm having quite a bit of trouble finding out very much at all about Dvd Maestro, which is a key component of your system. It appears that it was made by Spruce Technologies, who used to have a web site that's now a dead end. Many of the Google links for it no longer work. The last web info I can find for it is a fragment of a guide written over two years ago. Even ebay has zero links. I'm going to have to go way out on a limb, and guess it hasn't been available for quite some time.

Actually, DVDMaestro (or Spruce Technologies, if you check the DVD ID in DVDInfoPro), is still used on several new commercial DVD releases. For example, BBC uses it a lot on many Region 2 releases. I'd say it's among the top 5 software pieces that are used in real commercial releases. The most I ever see in commercial DVD ID's is Daikin (Scenarist), then Toshiba/MEI (I think that's correct), then Spruce Technologies and sometimes DVD Producer or other smaller systems. DVDMaestro is one of those much easier to use than Scenarist programs, but is just as fully featured as Scenarist. You can program just about anything into your DVD, including "Easter Eggs" and RCE "enhancement", etc.

As to what happened to DVDMaestro and Spruce Technologies? In 2001 Apple Computer bought them, and turned into DVD Studio Pro, which is a high end DVD authoring software, but only for Macs. It's basically an updated version of DVDMaestro.

The other key component for your system, RecordNow, at least currently is made by Roxio, and appears to be more keyed to cd burning than dvd. One review characterized it as "aimed at the quick and easy burning market". In the specifications for it, I can't find anything that would allow it to do what no other burning package I've ever used can do, burn a dvd-video set of files as data and have the resulting disk work (even in a remotely consistent manner). That's saying quite a bit, because over the years I've tried dozens of different burning programs. The only way it could do that is if the files were arranged in the proper order, and there is no burning program made that re-arranges files when burning in data mode. In video-dvd mode, yes. In data mode, no.

The fact that RecordNow is now sold under the Roxio brand doesn't mean anything as of yet. When the version 8 came out as Roxio product, it still burns DVD's as before (version 7.3), has the same ID name recorded in the info area of the recordable DVD. Also, it behaves exactly the same as version 7.3 with DVD+R DL regarding the layer break. So, while they "updated" the interface into something that I don't particularly like, the burning engine is still the same. I still use 7.3 because I'm just used to the interface and it has no problems whenever I add new DVD burners.

As for Data Mode, once you add a VIDEO_TS folder, RecordNow (same as Prassi ONES) switches to a DVD-Video conscious regime. Just try preparing a DVD-ROM disc (with bunch of different files and folders) in RecordNow, and then add a VIDEO_TS folder with some intentionally missing file inside of it (to screw up the compatibility). The result? It will not let you record your DVD because your VIDEO_TS is not compiant. Fix it and you'll be OK. So, once you simply add VIDEO_TS folder to your Data Mode compilation - VIDEO_TS takes an instant priority over anything else in that compilation (DVD-ROM files) and will be burned in correct order. I do that a lot when I add a lot of archive files (sometimes thousands) to my DVD-Video discs. And they still play everywhere. Finally, there is no such thing as DVD-Video mode in RecordNow, it's a part of Data Mode.

MaxBlack, I'm sorry that you have to witness my and VegasBud's friendly fight. I'm sure we both are eager to inform the public to the best of our abilities about the greatest possible ways of making DL DVD's. It's just that our opinions differ, so it seems like we're having a "urinating contest". But hey, I'm now starting the rehearsals for "Urinetown The Musical" with our theatre company, so I guess I'm just getting in the mood .

[pepegot1]

Anybody try burning DLs with IMGBurn?

[MaxBlack]

I'm now starting the rehearsals for "Urinetown The Musical" with our theatre company...

I wonder EB, can you get us seats up-front!!!?? At a discount!??

Oh, wait, on second thought, I don't WANT to be too close for that one!

[Edmund Blackadder]

I'm now starting the rehearsals for "Urinetown The Musical" with our theatre company...

I wonder EB, can you get us seats up-front!!!?? At a discount!??

I'll get you free seats if you actually come to see it, or maybe the better expression is to experience it .
But seriously, it's been observed that during this particular musical there's an unusually high amount of people leaving for the bathroom during the show. I wander why .

[VegasBud]

I'm sorry that you have to witness my and VegasBud's friendly fight.

So I take it then that I'm the only one who thinks we're having a discussion? It must be the savage environment of the suburbs that's toughened me up so much that I can't even tell when I'm in a fight.

Edmund Blackadder,

I found this thread that's interesting. In the thread, "Mary H" is using RecordNow in data mode to burn dvd-video. This post by dvdshrink (the author of DvdShrink) has the exact same reaction to the practice as I had. However, with your expanded explanation of what's going on, it does make at least some sense why it would work, although it's still a very strange concept. Maybe it's true that there is always an exception to the rule.

[VegasBud]

Anybody try burning DLs with IMGBurn?

Yes, ImgBurn works fine for single layer or dual layer. The new version of ImgBurn allows a lot more flexibility in setting the layer break than version 1.

[Wile_E]

Does ImgBurn burn the data in the correct order on the disc? That's what I'd like to know, since there is no specific DVD video mode for burning. Maybe someone could ask Lightning UK! on the ImgBurn forums. Does ImgBurn automatically switch to a DVD video mode burn, when you add Video_ts folder? You really need a hex editor to look at the data properly. Nero should burn properly since it has a DVD video mode. TMPGENc DVD Author burn tool should also work properly.

[Edmund Blackadder]

I found this thread that's interesting. In the thread, "Mary H" is using RecordNow in data mode to burn dvd-video. This post by dvdshrink (the author of DvdShrink) has the exact same reaction to the practice as I had. However, with your expanded explanation of what's going on, it does make at least some sense why it would work, although it's still a very strange concept. Maybe it's true that there is always an exception to the rule.

VegasBud, RecordNow has gone through numerous reincarnations, with different owners, but - thank goodness - always with the same basic engine. As far as I know here's the evolution:

Prassi PrimoDVD
Stomp RecordNow (same exact look and feel as PrimoDVD)
Veritas RecordNow
Sonic RecordNow
Roxio RecordNow

Prassi now has their own program ONES, which is also a perfect DVD burning tool, but unfortunately it's not been modified (like Sonic did with RecordNow while in their posession) to search the cells and chapters and adjust the layer break accordingly.

As for Data Mode, why I know for sure (besides being wildely compatible with every DVD player that can handle a particular physical media) that VIDEO_TS is taking the priority, is that in the Prassi PrimoDVD days, once you drop the AUDIO_TS or VIDEO_TS folder/folders to the Data Mode compilation, even if there are any other files already in that compilation, well VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS would always turn into a different color (I think it was red), and change a folder icon into something that had either music notes or something similar. So that told me that the moment you drop those VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folders, they take an instant priority.

If you burn it all in the same session and close it, VIDEO_TS will be properly seen by every DVD player. For example when I used DVD+RW or DVD-RW, if I first burn DVD-ROM files and then later add VIDEO_TS folder, the DVD is usually not playable, because of the messed up order. But if you either burn VIDEO_TS first and then add DVD-ROM files, or burn it all in the same session - it will be a fully playable DVD-Video disc.

And to be honest, I cannot not have DVD-ROM files on my DVD's anymore. Even the ones I make for my clients, I always include some regular files on the DVD's, such as text information and a link to my website. And as I said it before, I have never gotten any returns because of possible lack of compatibility. I think that's a proof enough that RecordNow engine burns those files in correct order.

And I think that the 3 year old thread, that you linked, with RecordNow success stories proves it even further.

[VegasBud]

Actually, the reason I thought the thread was interesting was that three years ago (in another forum) there was a similiar (although briefer) discussion that started when a RecordNow user said they burned in data mode. In that thread, as well as this one, the different views center on the term "data mode" which to a RecordNow user means video or data, but to people not using RecordNow, it means don't use "video mode" (which doesn't exist in RecordNow). That's what I meant when I said "it's still a very strange concept". To dvdshrink (the person) in the old thread, or to me in this thread, if there's a data mode, there must also be a video mode, because that's what we've seen.