Capturing PAL VHS in the US, is it hard?

[studtrooper]

Now, I know I will need to purchase a PAL compatable NTSC VCR (Any cheap reccomendations BTW?), but would it be possible to capture a PAL tape with my Leadtek Winfast TV 2000XP? Also, how hard would it be to convert what I captured in PAL into NTSC so I could make it compatable with DVD? Thanks.

[gshelley61]

Have a look at this standalone Akai DVD recorder:

http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=402008

Might be a good alternative and certainly faster than using your PC


Or, how about this Samsung Multi-System VCR that plays and digitally converts to any format:

http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=953613&store=ecost&source=ECOSTDEAL&ad...mail,ECOSTDEAL

[gshelley61]

You may want to bid on this Sony Multi-System HiFi VCR:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5702791571

[studtrooper]

Have a look at this standalone Akai DVD recorder:

http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=402008

Might be a good alternative and certainly faster than using your PC


Or, how about this Samsung Multi-System VCR that plays and digitally converts to any format:

http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=953613&store=ecost&source=ECOSTDEAL&ad...mail,ECOSTDEAL

Well, if I was rich I'd definately go for that SV5000W. But for now, I guess I still want to see if I could a cheaper solution like I originally described. Thanks for the links though

[studtrooper]

You may want to bid on this Sony Multi-System HiFi VCR:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5702791571

Hmm... that is a good one. I wonder where I'd find that missing power cord though?

[FulciLives]

This is probably your best bet for a quality multi-system VHS VCR:

http://www.world-import.com/v-e60.htm

That link is to a TOSHIBA multi-system 6-Head Hi-Fi Stereo VHS VCR that is capable of playing back NTSC/PAL/SECAM VHS video tapes. It does no conversion so play back PAL and you get PAL etc.

I have an older model TOSHIBA and quality is most excellent.

You then capture this to the computer as PAL using an AVI format such as HuffyUV or PICVideo MJPEG etc.

It is then possible using a combination of AviSynth, VirtualDub, your MPEG encoder and a good WAV AUDIO editing program to then convert to an NTSC DVD-R

I just did this myself recently with a PAL VHS video and it turned out looking amazing. I've done PAL DVD to NTSC DVD but never did a PAL to NTSC from a PAL VHS until now but I'm very happy how it turned out.

I have 2 different stand alone converters that do PAL to NTSC but both suck in quality compared to what can be done on a computer.

I'd be happy to post how I did it but please note it can be a tricky operation ... most people can't figure out how to do it correctly from a PAL DVD which is easy than from a PAL VHS.

If anyone is interested I would be willing to offer my services in doing this for a fee if anyone wants to save themselves the hardware bill and the time

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[GregN]

John, I might take you up on this offer, as I would only have a few tapes to do..

No sense in wasting lots of time and energy (and equipment expense). This is Cruel_Inventions from over @avsforum, btw.

I'll let you know sometime later (a week? a month? not sure yet if I'll be needing that type of work), and depending on just how much you would charge, of course.

[dphirschler]

John, I would be curious as to your technique. My instinct tells me:

PAL VCR with native PAL output into capture card. Capture at PAL settings (hopefully capture card can handle PAL). If progressive, then change frame rate and adjust audio. If 25i, then convert using AVIsynth script. Is there anything I am missing here? The wildcard for me here is can my capture card handle a PAL signal (Pinnacle PCTV Pro).


Darryl

[FulciLives]

OK well I play back the PAL VHS in a multi-system VHS VCR because I'm in the USA.

So yes I capture as PAL format.

I have a BT based card. The AverTV Stereo. I'm using the Avermedia drivers. Thanks to Trevlac I have determined that my NTSC capture resolution is 688x480 whereas my PAL capture resolution is 696x576

Here is a LINK to help you determine that (if you have a BT based capture card).

So I end up with a 25fps PAL capture at 696x576 using PICVideo MJPEG on the 19 quality setting.

I then used the following AviSynth script (this is the actual script):

LoadPlugin("Convolution3d.dll")
avisource("D:\CAPTURE\devils.avi")
Trim(515,160570)
crop(0,72,-0,-72)
Convolution3D (0, 32, 128, 16, 64, 10, 0)
AddBorders(12,0,12,0)
LanczosResize(720,480)
AssumeFPS(23.976, true)
ConvertToYUY2()

Please note that this was a PAL VHS with an aspect ratio of about 1.85:1 so my script is making a 16x9 enhanced version of it for the DVD.

I load this into VirtualDubMod. Extract the audio to a WAV file (direct stream mode). Load the WAV into SoundForge. It is the correct length for 23.976fps now but with the wrong sample rate (due to conversion it goes from 48k to something "odd" like 46k). Resave WAV as 48k then convert to AC-3 with SoftEncode.

Then I run the script through CCE to get the video. Encode at 23.976fps then use PULLDOWN.EXE to set 3:2 pulldown.

Below are some screen shots from my final M2V video file. Screen shoots were done by loading the M2V into VirtualDubMod then copy and past into Photoshop. The only processing I did in Photoshop was to resize from 720x480 to 640x360 to give a proper 4:3 aspect ratio as per a computer monitor. Remember the original is 720x480 and is 16x9 enhanced. I saved this as JPEG images trying to get them as close to the limit as this site allows (about 50k each).









The source was the British PAL VHS release of the Ken Russell film THE DEVILS. This is the only version of the film that is both uncut and widescreen. For some reason this film has been ignored on DVD and the only uncut LaserDisc release was a Japanese LD that was full screen. All USA releases VHS releases have been cut versions of the film.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
The last shot might look a bit "blurry" because it is raining in that scene with rain between the actress and the camera.

[SatStorm]

If you have a VCR that outputs PAL as NTSC50, then you can use any bt8xx card and the btwincap drivers to capture your tape that way.

Then you resize to a PAL framesize and encode it as true PAL.

I do the reverse with NTSC and PAL60 with excellent results (my difference is that I have to capture PAL 60 at an NTSC framesize, you have to capture NTSC50 with an NTSC framesize and then resize to a PAL one. You lost some lines that way, but if you capture 16:9 material, you won't notice it)

[FulciLives]

If you have a VCR that outputs PAL as NTSC50, then you can use any bt8xx card and the btwincap drivers to capture your tape that way.

Then you resize to a PAL framesize and encode it as true PAL.

I do the reverse with NTSC and PAL60 with excellent results (my difference is that I have to capture PAL 60 at an NTSC framesize, you have to capture NTSC50 with an NTSC framesize and then resize to a PAL one. You lost some lines that way, but if you capture 16:9 material, you won't notice it)

VHS VCR's in the USA are NTSC only. They are capable of ONLY playing back NTSC (which also includes Japanese NTSC).

A USA model VHS VCR cannot play back PAL at all.

Although I'm familiar with the PAL60 trick that PAL VHS VCR's use when playing NTSC I have never heard of NTSC50 i.e., the reverse of that aka Playing back PAL in a psydo NTSC format.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[SatStorm]

Yeah, I know that NTSC 50 exists but I don't know how rare it is or not!
Maybe is one of those "only on paper" solutions...

[studtrooper]

Hmm, this is turning out to be a little more difficult than I originally anticipated. I think I might take FulciLives up on his offer if I absoultely need my PAL tapes converted. Thanks for the info guys

[fmctm1sw]

I then used the following AviSynth script (this is the actual script):

LoadPlugin("Convolution3d.dll")
avisource("D:\CAPTURE\devils.avi")
Trim(515,160570)
crop(0,72,-0,-72)
Convolution3D (0, 32, 128, 16, 64, 10, 0)
AddBorders(12,0,12,0)
LanczosResize(720,480)
AssumeFPS(23.976, true)
ConvertToYUY2()

Please note that this was a PAL VHS with an aspect ratio of about 1.85:1 so my script is making a 16x9 enhanced version of it for the DVD.

Fulci,
Why do you crop so much off? That's 72 pixels on each side if I'm reading it right..

[FulciLives]

No I'm chopping 72 from the TOP and 72 from the BOTTOM ... not from the sides!

I captured 696x576 because that gives me a correct DVD resolution from a PAL source using my capture card.

So I add 12 black to either side to get a width of 720 since that is the DVD standard.

I cut 72 from the TOP and BOTTOM because my source is 4:3 WS with an aspect ratio of approximately 1.85:1 so I'm converting my 4:3 WS to 16x9 enhanced WS by doing that (the cropping) and then resizing to 720x576 ... but I'm also doing PAL to NTSC so I resize to 720x480 instead.

Thus I go from 4:3 WS PAL to 16x9 enhanced WS NTSC.

See the pictures above?

Those were originally Full D1 NTSC 720x480 16x9 enhanced WS but for display here I resized to 640x360 for a proper square pixel 4:3 ratio.

Here is what the pic of Oliver Reed looks like on the DVD ... again this is NTSC Full D1 720x480 16x9 enhanced WS:



This is now the resized version that I did just so it looks normal on a 4:3 computer monitor (720x480 resized to 640x360). This is the same thing I did to the picture above (in my first post of pictures):



That is how it would look on a 16x9 TV ... on a 4:3 TV there would be more black on the top and bottom to "fill" the screen:



Make sense now

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
If the first image here looks like it has any less detail it is simply the JPEG compression I had to use. Since it is a bigger image I needed to use more JPEG compression than the 2nd and 3rd images here in this post.

[tweedledee]

I live in a PAL country, but when I have a NTSC tape I leave it in NTSC when I transfer to DVD, and my 3 DVD players cope with it no problem. Surely that applies to the US?

[FulciLives]

I live in a PAL country, but when I have a NTSC tape I leave it in NTSC when I transfer to DVD, and my 3 DVD players cope with it no problem. Surely that applies to the US?

Not all DVD players in the USA can play PAL DVD discs.

Some do not play PAL DVD discs at all. Some can but will only output PAL and all USA televisions are NTSC only so that's no good.

There are a few that will play a PAL DVD and convert it to NTSC on playback.

I have 2 such DVD players.

But I live in the USA and I want NTSC in the end and since I capture AVI and then encode to MPEG-2 ... well it ain't that much more effert to do the PAL to NTSC conversion in the process.

In the end I have a NTSC format DVD that will play in any USA model DVD player.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[tweedledee]

But I live in the USA and I want NTSC in the end and since I capture AVI and then encode to MPEG-2 ... well it ain't that much more effert to do the PAL to NTSC conversion in the process.

Hi Fulci, If I captured in AVI could I just run the AVI thru TMPGENC using the Wizard and end up with a NTSC Mpeg 2 ?, or is there more I need to do? BTW, Sorry to highjack this thread.

[FulciLives]

But I live in the USA and I want NTSC in the end and since I capture AVI and then encode to MPEG-2 ... well it ain't that much more effert to do the PAL to NTSC conversion in the process.

Hi Fulci, If I captured in AVI could I just run the AVI thru TMPGENC using the Wizard and end up with a NTSC Mpeg 2 ?, or is there more I need to do? BTW, Sorry to highjack this thread.

Well I prefer doing it with AviSynth but you could do it with just TMPGEnc but only if the video is progressive. Often times this works even if TMPGEnc reports that the video is interlaced. PAL is "funny" like that

Anyways I'll type up a quick post here on how to do that but I'm encoding something in CCE right now so I don't want to open TMPGEnc.

So look for it tomorrow sometime I guess.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman