The Best DVD Recorder Chip

[Marvingj]

Ok Fellas just had a few buds again & The Debate went Sour Because we all didn't have the information, Plus we ran out of Bud. Gotta get another case. So while we are gone can someone answer these question. What are the Pros & Cons on DVD Recorder Chips, How do they stack up in Picture Quality? How do these Chips really stack up LSI, Zoran, Cirrus & In House Chips. Any Opinions?

[lordsmurf]

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=215926&highlight=recorder+chipset

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=224225&highlight=recorder+chipset

#1 LSI http://www.lsilogic.com/products/recorder_dvd_dvr_dtr/dmn8600_mk.html
#2 Zoran http://www.zoran.com/products/dvd/recorders/
#3 Renesas *** (see notes at bottom .. could be info mistake?)
#4 Panasonic
#5 Philips
#6 Cirrus

.. honestly getting harder to keep track of this with new ones coming out ... the one thing I can say is none have toppled LSI .. many have stampeeded over Panasonic (once the only option, now thankfully that has changed)

... 4-6 are not far apart either. 1 is in league of it's own. 2-3 close too.

1- new DVD better than source, quality improved .. to date ONLY LSI does this
2-3- new DVD as good as source, quality maintained
4-5-6- new DVD, quality not at all maintained

I studied recorders first ... went back to find out what was under the hood. I was pleased that findings for recorders that looked alike were also ones using the same or similar chipsets!

... how the recorder implements these chips is anoth erthing to watch for also. Sony does a bad job compared to other ZORAN's. LiteON made a bad choice picking CVBR instead of VBR ... and I don't care what "banitc of LiteON" says about the "DVD+VR" spec being adhered too. Still a bad choice. Cyberhome is a piece of junk, makes bad chip worse. Panasonic has long choked on the failures of its own chips .. and by the time they were perfected, others can surpass their quality. Sorry, you lose Panny. Philips has never been much better, and the machines are a bit clumsy. Apex and JVC were the best quality I've ever seen, can easily outperform a Hauppauge and ATI card. But the APEX PSUs could blow up, not good.

The JVC DRM10SL has a sturdy machine, lots of features, and great quality, my #1 pick.




*** https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=938498#938498

The Zoran (Pioneer) will start to falter at 4-hour modes

Just to clarify, Pioneer DVD recorders (starting with the 510H and 310) use Renesas Technology (a Japanese design firm) chipset, not Zoran, as stated in their brochure which can be downloaded from the following link:

http://www.pioneeraus.com.au/home_entertainment/dvdplayersandrecorders/dvr310/support/brochures.html

The DVR-510H-S and DVR-310-S come with the
industry's first 1-chip recorder engine, a revolutionary
development from Pioneer in cooperation with a
leading device manufacturer, Renesas Technology
Corporation.

Smurfy's problem is that he likes to make blanket statements without telling (or maybe knowing) the full story. LSI Logic chipset may be the best among those off-the-shelf products, but it takes more than the chipset to make a good recorder. His continuing bashing the Panasonic models while praising the JVC really amuses me since JVC is also owned by Matsushita. So either way, the money eventually goes to the same corporation.

Read this:

"Current DVD recorders available in the retail channel using Zoran-based processors include models from Toshiba, Sharp, Pioneer and Sony. We expect that high quality, affordable DVD recorders will top the list of "most wanted" consumer products for the 2003 fall selling season."

Middle of the page: http://www.zoran.com/ar/record.html

Is ZORAN lying?

I'm working on reviews right now for my site. I'm getting over a corrupt hard drive, so it'll be a few weeks. I should have screen caps to show a lot of the errors. Some from same footage, some not. I owned the 17 or so recorders over a 5-6 month time, didn't always cap for keeps either. I did this for myself, never intended to become the "recorder guy" here, but you play they hand your dealt. hard to turn people away when they ask for help and you know the answers.


ALL TESTS are conducted in 3-4 hour time window. 6+ hour looks bad on most machines (only exception I've ever seen was a PAL Panasonic, still getting details on that unit). The 1-2 hour modes look the same on almost all units, though color loss sometimes still an issue on those 4-5-6 chips.

CBR is also important. CVBR as bad as CBR.
VBR is the one to get !!!
AC3 is important too, and watch out for mono machines !!!

[Marvingj]

Can't wait for your Test result.

[Marvingj]

Cirrus chip enables universal DVD players
By Anthony Cataldo
EE Times
May 18, 1999 (3:57 PM EDT)



TOKYO — Japanese consumer electronics manufacturers plan to unveil "universal" DVD players with new audio features as a way to refresh their product lines and distinguish them from cheaper video players from other Asian competitors, according to officials at Cirrus Logic Inc., which has developed an audio decompression engine that targets the new class of players.

Several Japanese companies are in the process of incorporating DVD-Audio and other proprietary sound-enhancing algorithms and compression schemes into new players in the hope that early adopters will snap them up. Current DVD players do not support DVD-Audio, the hardware specification for which was not finalized by the DVD Forum until last February.

With the newer DVD players, Japanese consumer electronics OEMs will try to get a leg up on regional competitors selling Video CD players and shore up declining DVD prices, which have fallen as low as $250 in Japan. Officials from Cirrus Logic, one of the leading vendors of audio codecs, said they expect the first DVD players with the new features to hit store shelves by year's end.




"Many DVD makers gave up the low-end in the Far East because China, Taiwan and Korea are developing lower-priced players, like Video CD. So Japanese companies are planning to meet the higher end of the market," said Hidehiko Kondo, sales and marketing manager for Cirrus Logic K.K. (Tokyo).

Kondo said OEMs are looking to use Dolby AC-3, MPEG-2 and DTS DVD-Audio decompression standards in the new players. In addition, several vendors are also considering adding support for other sound-enhancing features such as High Definition Compatible Digital (HDCD), a proprietary algorithm developed by Pacific Microsonics Inc. (Berkeley, Calif.) that increases the dynamic range of CDs for clearer fidelity.

It is unlikely, however, that the first wave of universal DVD players will include Meridian Lossless Packing (MLP) audio since the standard is relatively new and there is still little software support, Kondo said.

Cirrus hopes to snatch a piece of the business for these new DVD systems by fielding its latest CS49300 device, which can decode PCM, MLP, AC-3, DTS and MPEG audio. And because the device is programmable, OEMs can include features such as HDCD, Dolby Virtual, surround field processing, bass/treble controls, bass boost and speaker delays. The chip is priced at $15 in 10,000-unit quantities. Samples are available now, and production is expected to begin in the third quarter.

When used in a universal DVD player, the chip receives data from a DVD drive control device and outputs to a set of stereo D/A converters. The chip also has a separate PCM/AC-3 output, and a can draw code from an external ROM containing code for standards such as MLP and HDCD.

The 0.24-micron device employs the same architecture as an earlier implementation for AVR systems. The architecture is made up of two DSPs, RAM data memory, ROM and RAM program memory and a phased-locked loop.

The 30-square-millimeter device comes in a 44-pin package. Crystal Semiconductor, Cirrus' wholly-owned subsidiary in Austin, Texas, will provide the decompression software.

Cirrus also plans to unveil two additional D/A converters and one new codec later this year aimed at DVD players. In the coming months, Cirrus will ship samples of two 24-bit D/As from its CS439X family which will target both mid-range and high-end systems. The mid-range device, which will be available in sample quantities in July, is capable of 196-kHz sampling frequency and has a dynamic range of 107 dB. Scheduled to be available in sample quantities in August, the high-performance version is a multi-bit architecture that has a sampling frequency of 196 kHz and a 120-dB dynamic range. Cirrus also plans to later include support for Super Audio CD, an extension to CD audio promulgated by Philips and Sony, in its high-end chip, said Terry Ritchie, vice president of consumer products for Cirrus Logic's Crystal division.

On the codec front, Cirrus will begin sampling by July its CS422X, a 24-bit codec that features 96-kHz sampling, stereo A/D, 6-channel D/A and volume control. All of Cirrus' planned D/A converters and codecs will be available in volume quantities three months after sampling begins, according to the company.





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Check This Out!

[Synergy]

Sony does a bad job compared to other ZORAN's.

I have to wonder which Zoran-based DVD recorders did you actually test to rank Zoran as #2 when you made the above statement? The Sony RDR-GX7 is based on Sony's own chipset (see the table in the middle of the following link):

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/Article.asp?mid=8&sid=11&aid=55

and the only Zoran-based recorder other than the Toshiba brand sold in the US is the Sharp DV-RW2U (a rather obscure model, BTW) according to my another post responding to your question:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=938613&highlight=#938613

I'd assume before making these repeated public statements, you'd have at least popped open the cases to confirm who actually made the chipset in these recorders?

[lordsmurf]

Sony does a bad job compared to other ZORAN's.

I have to wonder which Zoran-based DVD recorders did you actually test to rank Zoran as #2 when you made the above statement? The Sony RDR-GX7 is based on Sony's own chipset (see the table in the middle of the following link):

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/Article.asp?mid=8&sid=11&aid=55

and the only Zoran-based recorder other than the Toshiba brand sold in the US is the Sharp DV-RW2U (a rather obscure model, BTW) according to my another post responding to your question:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=938613&highlight=#938613

I'd assume before making these repeated public statements, you'd have at least popped open the cases to confirm who actually made the chipset in these recorders?

I have to go off what I read. If somebody's else's under-the-hood info is bad, I'm helpless. Again, I'm doing tests for myself, don't have time to dedicate to 100% guaranteeing the info on what-chips-where. If needed, I'll revert back to grouping recorders by what I saw. What I saw is this:

1. Apex, JVC (several), Samsung, and lastly LiteOn to lesser degree
2. Pioneer (several), Toshiba, Sharp, and lastly Sony to lesser degree
3. Panasonic (several) and Philips (several)
4. Cyberhome, Polaroid ... a handful of other no-names.

.. I'm sure I missed a few in the quick list ... my reviews on my site will be by brand (model variances discussed) and then chipsets will be listed, but with "confirmed" and "not yet confirmed" status. Not trying to mislead anybody, but this is not easy.

Have you tried to pry open on of these things? Normally you can't see anything, nothing at all. It's aggravating.

I have tested this one: Sharp DV-RW2U

People should use me as a "guide" ... a place to start ... verify and test on your own (as I would do listening to somebody else), and then report back errors as you find them (just don't be a dick about it is all I ask, we're all trying to help each other after all).

[Synergy]

What I saw is this:

1. Apex, JVC (several), Samsung, and lastly LiteOn to lesser degree
2. Pioneer (several), Toshiba, Sharp, and lastly Sony to lesser degree
3. Panasonic (several) and Philips (several)
4. Cyberhome, Polaroid ... a handful of other no-names.

Once again, I have to ask which Samsung model are you referring to? and I'd guess the Samsung DVD-R4000 since it was the only model ever sold in the US. However, that particular Samsung model is actually a rebadged Panasonic DMR-E50, even the remote is interchangeable. Very interesting to see that the Panasonic is ranked in the third group yet the Samsung is in your first group unless you "thought" the Samsung model used LSI Logic chipset? FYI, Samsung models that using LSI Lgic chipset have not appeared on the market.

Have you tried to pry open on of these things? Normally you can't see anything, nothing at all. It's aggravating.

Now that's funny. Normally there are only a few LSI chips on the circuit board and quite easy to identify. The following is a picture of the Pioneer DVR-5100H after removing the HDD, e.g. the big NEC chip is for DV port input/output as PhilipL mentioned before, since you hate the HDD-based models, this removal of HDD shouldn't be required for you:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=735315&highlight=#735315

There are facts and there are personal preferences/opinions, as long as you get the facts straight then people will respect your opinions. I won't waste my time on this issue and people can choose whatever they want to believe.

[kcfoulk]

Encoding chipset is only one of the critical factors in building a good DVD recorder, LSI Logic, Zoran, Cirrus Logic, Philips, etc. not only design DVD chipsets but they also sell the DVD recorder reference kit so the low cost manufacturers in Asia could assemble them cheaply. It's laughable to claim that X brand has a better product than Y brand simply because it used a LSI Logic chipset. Of course, it's just an opinion not a fact since it's rather subjective to compare PQ under different conditions such as the quality of monitor and souce materials used.

And I just love the following quote whenever I need a laugh:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=876848&highlight=#876848

What if the DVD recorders were cars?
- PANASONIC: 4-cylinder engine, fancy chrome wheels with neon lights and hydraulics (useless fancy junk). Early versions had floodlamps instead of headlights (IRE levels).
- APEX: V10 engine, tires a little low on pressure so beware of a blowout
- LITE-ON 5005: V10 engine, tires fine, body decent. The 5001 forgot to put in oil or ventilation.
- JVC: V10 engine, but steering wheel is on the right side
- PIONEER: V8 engine, drives great, expensive. Has SUV models too.
- SONY: V8 engine, drives great, expensive.
- TOSHIBA: V8 engine, SUV but back doors won't open
- SHARP: V8 engine, square wheels
- CYBERHOME: V6 engine, tires fell off while leaving lot
- MUSTEK: V6 engine, square wheels
- POLAROID: engine still unknown, hood was welded shut and the wheels fell off while leaving lot

Have you tried to pry open on of these things? Normally you can't see anything, nothing at all.

Wow, you could see more macroblocks noise on the Pioneer recording, yet you can't find the chipset on a circuit board. You are really killing me.

[kabanero]

kcfoulk,

I have LIteOn 5001, JVC DR-M10S. I had Pioneer 220s for 2 days and then Pioneer 210s for another 2 days of intensive testing. And I can tell you for sure: Pioneer quality is worse than LiteOn or JVC, even at XP (one hour mode)

And LSI Logic rules.

I've never tried any Panasonic and will never will becasue when I was encoding everything on PC, I tried Panasonic MPEG-1, and then MPEG-2 software encoder. MPEG-1 for VCD was ok, but MPEG-2 software encoder quality was not good compare to others that I tried: TMPGEnc, LSX, CCE, MC, MPEG.Now.

[kcfoulk]

I have LIteOn 5001, JVC DR-M10S. I had Pioneer 220s for 2 days and then Pioneer 210s for another 2 days of intensive testing. And I can tell you for sure: Pioneer quality is worse than LiteOn or JVC, even at XP (one hour mode)

And LSI Logic rules.

I am glad they work great for you with your equipment, whatever they may be and I respect your opinion. But I have also watched some materials recorded by the LSI Logic-based machine on an HD TV with very disappointing results, and that's exactly my point. To each his own.

[kabanero]

I saw comercial DVDs on HD TV looked terrible.

[Neuron]

.... I have also watched some materials recorded by the LSI Logic-based machine on an HD TV with very disappointing results, and that's exactly my point. .....

Go buy D-VHS video recoreder and forget about DVD-recorders. If you were disappointed watching media recorded by the LSI Logic-based machine on your HDTVset, then you'll be much more disappointed watching media recorded by non-LSI machines.

[spiderman2k1]

"kabanero" not to buy Panasonic because you did not like there VCD encoder. I think you would be missing out of a good record if any brand not just panasonic. Think about it. it might have been a small team of one or five people programming that software. That does not stand for the home company. I did not like the Panasonic VCD encode two but i love my 27 inch Panny flat screen. I love my eight year old $900.00 dollar VCR that has one of the best picture with noise reduction. Every company make good and bad. The only company I do not like is Sony. There burners are junk DVD player's break down more then other brand's there a law suit out in LA about this. PS2 die all the time. But they make good Flat screen TV. But they still cut corner's with feature's. But there made well i'll give them that but would not buy another one.

[lordsmurf]

When you open a lot of these recorders, what you see is "stuff" ... the motherboards are buried underneath eveything else. Some of them have heatsinks on the chips too, so I don't dare pry too much off, especially when I intend to take it back. A few also had warranty seals, don't dare open those either (must rely on info online).

The Samsung unit I had was not a rebadged Panasonic. Those are easy to spot ... they look like Panasonics. This one did not. Which model? Didn't pay that close attention at the time. Remember, I do this for myself.

Synergy, kcfoulk ... like I said, I share what I know. Your condescending attitudes are not desired. You are useless the way you act. If your reviews differ that is fine. That is fair. If you have new info to add to the ever-changing scope of DVD recorders, tell everybody. It's good to share. If you just want to come up here and belittle people to make yourselves feel better, **** off. Trolls are not needed on this site.

[Sam Ontario]

I have Daytek P-30 (LiteON LVW5001) and Philips DVR75. Both recorded nicely and I feel the recorded disc PQ is slightly better (soften blurred pictures and brighter with increased contrast) than the original. Pricewise, Philips is selling $389.99 at Costco Canada whereas Daytek is selling $349.99 at Future Shop.

I am not an expert I am a general consumer. To me the PQ are both good on my 32" TV. Daytek is a lot easier to use. Philips has more editing capabilities, features and more inputs and outputs. Maybe the rest of the DVD recorders are just the same to me, general consumers.

[Sam Ontario]

LordSmurf and Synergy both contributed valuable information on DVD Recorders and Chipsets. There is no need to get excited. Cosumers like me, thank you all for the contributions.

[kcfoulk]

Your condescending attitudes are not desired...If you just want to come up here and belittle people to make yourselves feel better, **** off. Trolls are not needed on this site.

Wow, this is from someone who likes to express his own personal opinions disguised as a matter of facts, also notice that all your posts never provide any outside link or any detailed info about your claims, like the Samsung model you just mentioned. Your credibility and motives are rather questionable after this "chipset ranking" fiasco, yet you have the nerve to ask other people with different viewpoints to shut up? Are you a moderator or do you own this board? No worry, I won't stick around in this board as long as you are around. Go here to see how people think about this stinking board being polluted by lordsmurf and his minions:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=408697

If you were disappointed watching media recorded by the LSI Logic-based machine on your HDTVset, then you'll be much more disappointed watching media recorded by non-LSI machines.

Again, this is just your opinion and I respect it no matter how you derive the conclusion. Actually, most recorders provide quite acceptable recordings at XP mode for 480p viewing, and some if not all at SP also. This is why an HDD-based recorder is important for me, probably another disagreement with the tolls around here.

[CaseyComb]

Generally, which recorders use which chipsets? Im thinking of buying a recorder.

[tommyoz]

All the original poster wanted was anyone's opinions not bashing. Lordmurf's chipset ranking was solely his opinion and it should have been left alone. Anyone who did not agree should have made their own ranking.
I question the credibility and motive's of someone attacking other people on this board.

I have tried several Standalone DVD recorders. Whatever chipsets they use, this is what I thought as far as quality.

1.JVC - DR-MV1S
2.Sony - RDR-GX7
3.Philips - DVDR-75
4.Sansui - DVD/VCR combo
5.Panasonic - DMR-E60
6.Cyberhome - CH-DVR1500

[kcfoulk]

I question the credibility and motive's of someone attacking other people on this board.

Well said, and you must be referring to the following:

To put anybody's guessing aside, I was out to pick a fight today

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=896328&highlight=#896328

I have tested this one: Sharp DV-RW2U

So what? Synergy apparently forgot to mention that the Zoran chipset used in all Toshiba and Pioneer/Sharp/Sony models was Vaddis 5 which is an MPEG-2 decoding (no encoding) device among other functions, and similar to those used in DVD players. Which encoding chipset used is unknown.

http://www.zoran.com/press_room/2002/07_31_02.html
http://www.zoran.com/press_room/2003/06_02_03.html
http://www.zoran.com/products/dvd/players/vaddis5.html

It's clear that Zoran's Activa 100 (the MPEG-2 encoding chipset) has never been used in any of the above mentioned models. So much ado turns out to be nothing.

http://www.zoran.com/products/dvd/recorders/index.html

[lordsmurf]

kfoulk, you're missing the point.

I tested recorders for myself. I wanted to buy a good one. I refuse to pray to the "Panasonic god" like others, as it is unwarranted from it's mediocre-at-best quality, so it that regard, I'll always pick a fight (you found a perfect link with those exact words "pick a fight").

In my travels, I saw lots of recorders. I thus shared what I saw. Remember, I don't get paid for this, so I just do what I can and what I want.

In the studies, I noticed trends. I have attempted as best I can to ID the chips (the "under the hood" stuff). This is not easy info to come by, rather it be online or hacking apart the box.

If some info on chips I found is wrong, so be it. I'll update the list. But rather than nitpick at what's wrong, why don't you ******* make yourself useful and find the correct info? If you don't like my quality rankings, then make your own. Troll.

[kcfoulk]

If some info on chips I found is wrong, so be it.

Is it really so hard to admit mistakes? I know I'm not always right, and that's why I'm here to learn.

why don't you ******* make yourself useful and find the correct info?

I thought I just did, but probably not for your taste. When people started using the four-letter words, rational discussion is no longer possible. Won't return to this thread anymore.

[kabanero]

No worry, I won't stick around in this board as long as you are around. Go here to see how people think about this stinking board being polluted by lordsmurf and his minions:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=408697

kcfoulk,

If you don't like this stinking board, why the hell do you still post here?
And how many posts, made by HoustonGuy on AVS forum, did you read? Probably only that one.

[kcfoulk]

If you don't like this stinking board, why the hell do you still post here?

That's why it needs some cleaning with facts, you former designated mouthpiece of the DVD+RW Alliance. Too bad PhilipL decided to withdraw all his comments about you. How come you abandoned your favorite +R/RW format, and bought an inferior format of -R/RW/RAM? Folks at Matsushita must be enjoying this. (Sorry, just can't resist the urge to boost the viewership)

[kabanero]

kcfoulk

Oh, you are a friend of PhilipL. So, you are another Panasonic-Pioneer troll. That's where the truth is.

SO LONG, MY FRIEND!

BTW, you can read comments about PhilipL here:

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/forum/ikonboard.cgi?s=16560373628f14bb0869680b3e659fe5;ac...ST;f=3;t=10285

How come you abandoned your favorite +R/RW format, and bought an inferior format of -R/RW/RAM? Folks at Matsushita must be enjoying this. (Sorry, just can't resist the urge to boost the viewership)

The only thing I can say and repeat again: DVD-RAM and DVD-RW SUCK.
DVD+RW and LSI Logic rules.

SO LONG, MY FRIEND!

[DCA_Guy]

I appreciate the insight, experience, and advice that you ALL offer, in the various discussion boards on this site.

I agree with the statement that "condescending attitudes are not desired". However, I don't agree with the statement to "f... off".

Let's keep the focus on the subject of the topic. And, avoid a focus of "my opinion is better than...". Ego's are a polluting factor in a forum for learning.

Again, I appreciate and respect all of your opinions. You all have taught me a great deal. Differing opinions are healthy for growth.

When presenting an opinion that differs from someone elses, pay no attention to that. Merely offer your experienced perspective on the subject. It's a great opportunity to broaden perspectives and sharpen understanding!

Thank you all, for you participation and contributions on this site. They are all valuable. And, I hope that you ALL continue to participate. As, I'm certain many others hope for the same.

Hope to see your continued posts.

[lordsmurf]

However, I don't agree with the statement to "f... off".

Sometimes it's the only way to get a person's attention. Not my favorite either, but often a necessary evil. Proper usage

If some info on chips I found is wrong, so be it.

Is it really so hard to admit mistakes? I know I'm not always right, and that's why I'm here to learn.

I could have swore that's what I just did.

[Sam Ontario]

Encourage +ve and down play -ve! Continue to contribute. We can learn a lot from you, enthuastic guys/gals.

[Denvers Dawgs]

Just curious if anyone knows of or has a list of dvd recorders that use the LSI chip? And also, with new technology appearing all the time, is there a better chip now, or has anyone heard about some new ones?

I would also like to thank lordsmurf for all his hard work, and his dedicatiom to this forum......he has answered my questions/PMs a few times and I would just like to thank him for his help to me and the others.....

[tommyoz]

I question the credibility and motive's of someone attacking other people on this board.

Well said, and you must be referring to the following:

To put anybody's guessing aside, I was out to pick a fight today

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=896328&highlight=#896328

No I wasn't reffering to that. He was not attacking anyone in general. He was stating how he feels about something (which is his opinion). But now that you show me that link, I see this goes a while back at least with the other guy who attacked him here. By the way where did he go? He started the attack and then went away.