good bitrate for HalfD1

[choirislife923]

what would be a good bitrate for 352x480i NTSC? I am capturing at 4mbits, so it makes no sense to go higher than that. I want to have good looking video with a good bitrate that gives the most effiecient use of space on the DVD-R, but doesnt use a high bitrate where no quality is lost...i just want to break even in quality. i am thinking about doing AC3 mono (i'm just archiving old home videos from the 80s) for the sound.

edit: typo corrected in resolution (352x480i, not 352x280i)

[FulciLives]

what would be a good bitrate for 352x280i NTSC? I am capturing at 4mbits, so it makes no sense to go higher than that. I want to have good looking video with a good bitrate that gives the most effiecient use of space on the DVD-R, but doesnt use a high bitrate where no quality is lost...i just want to break even in quality. i am thinking about doing AC3 mono (i'm just archiving old home videos from the 80s) for the sound.

Half D1 for NTSC is 352x480 not 352x280 but I realize that might just have been a typo on your part.

In my opinion Half D1 hits the MAX bitrate at about 5000kbps ... in other words going higher than 5000kbps is not going to increase quality.

4000kbps is still pretty high though and probably safe at CBR although I must admit that I have often done 2-pass VBR using 4000kbps as an AVG with 2000kbps as a MIN and 6000kbps as a MAX (eventhough I realize that is high I like trying to set my AVG directly between the MIN and MAX).

As for the audio I would do 2.0 AC-3 at a bitrate of 256kbps as going higher is really just a waste of bitrate. A 2.0 AC-3 is 2 channels but can be stereo or mono.

Leaving room for your DVD Authoring overhead I calculate that 5000kbps video bitrate with 256kbps 2.0 AC-3 audio would give you about 115 minutes on a single layer DVD recordable.

If you use 4000kbps video bitrate with 256kbps 2.0 AC-3 audio then you are looking at about 140 minutes on a single layer DVD recordable.

If what you are putting on the disc is 115 minutes or less then just do a CBR of 5000kbps otherwise lower the bitrate and do a 2-pass VBR

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

I just realized that you said you capture at 4000kbps so that sound to me like you are capturing direct to Half D1 MPEG-2 already.

In that case you can try 5000kbps but 4000kbps is probably "high" enough. I still say 5000kbps is the best choice though for Half D1 at least when doing a CBR encode.

You can't obviously do a 2-pass VBR when you capture in MPEG-2 but some capture cards and software can do a psydo on-the-fly VBR capture/encode.

Anyways it is important to note that when you capture direct to MPEG-2 you don't want to re-encode the video after the capture.

The audio can be safetly re-encoded with little to no loss. If you can capture PCM WAV at 16-bit Stereo 48k

If you can only do MP2 audio on capture then do the highest bitrate you can (which is 384kbps for MP2) and again at 16-bit Stereo 48k

Either way the audio will convert well to 256kbps 2.0 AC-3

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

Read the bitrae graphs on this page:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/capture/avivsmpeg.htm

[DVD_Ripper]

I have done some 1/2D1 at 3500 to 4000 and am quite pleased with the quality.

I may have to try a higher capture and then resample down to 4k as FulciLives denotes.

FulciLives... do you know of any good post capture software out there that may do a multipass VBR re-encoding of an existing MPEG

[lordsmurf]

do you know of any good post capture software out there that may do a multipass VBR re-encoding of an existing MPEG

PROCODER

[SatStorm]

The "refference" bitrate value for 1/2 D1 is 4000kb/s CBR. Perfect picture
The "commercial" bitrate value for 1/2 D1 is 3200Kb/s average VBR. Near perfect picture, for realtime mpeg 2 captures.
The "economic" bitrate value for 1/2 D1 is 2800kb/s average VBR. Near perfect results, with filtering and offline encoding.
The "good" bitrate value for 1/2 D1 is 2000kb/s average VBR. Needs lot's of filtering / smoothing for acceptable results, and very advance proccessing technics. Multipass VBR is suggested.
Less 2000kb/s is bad and more than 4000kb/s CBR is an overkill.

With smart filtering, an average of 2800kb/s gonna give you excellent to perfect results, IMHO. The same but without filtering, is at 3200kb/s.

I use 2800kb/s average for most of my projects, and I'm satisfied with the results. But I always filter, resize and frameserve to the encoder, to succeed this.

[choirislife923]

Anyways it is important to note that when you capture direct to MPEG-2 you don't want to re-encode the video after the capture.

should I use MJPEG? i dont have much HDD space left for DV video...13 gigs

[lordsmurf]

The "refference" bitrate value for 1/2 D1 is 4000kb/s CBR. Perfect picture
The "commercial" bitrate value for 1/2 D1 is 3200Kb/s average VBR. Near perfect picture, for realtime mpeg 2 captures.
The "economic" bitrate value for 1/2 D1 is 2800kb/s average VBR. Near perfect results, with filtering and offline encoding.
The "good" bitrate value for 1/2 D1 is 2000kb/s average VBR. Needs lot's of filtering / smoothing for acceptable results, and very advance proccessing technics. Multipass VBR is suggested.
Less 2000kb/s is bad and more than 4000kb/s CBR is an overkill.

With smart filtering, an average of 2800kb/s gonna give you excellent to perfect results, IMHO. The same but without filtering, is at 3200kb/s.

I use 2800kb/s average for most of my projects, and I'm satisfied with the results. But I always filter, resize and frameserve to the encoder, to succeed this.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/capture/avivsmpeg.htm

Bitrate graph 2/3rds down the page for you. Lower bitrates means you need better software or hardware encodes. Upper end will be fine on cheapo and good stuff alike (for the most part).

[FulciLives]

Anyways it is important to note that when you capture direct to MPEG-2 you don't want to re-encode the video after the capture.

should I use MJPEG? i dont have much HDD space left for DV video...13 gigs

I capture using PICVideo MJPEG on the 19 quality setting then I encode to MPEG-2 DVD spec using Cinema Craft Encoder aka CCE

I just did a capture of a movie that is about 1 hour and 45 minutes and the AVI file is about 18GB ... that's using Full D1 resolution with PICVideo MJPEG on 19 and PCM WAV 16-bit Stereo 48k audio.

You need a bigger HDD or just capture your MPEG-2 file at target bitrate.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[SatStorm]

@ lordsmurf
Nice graphs

BTW, DVB transmissions can be anything from CIF to full D1. There are no "mutant" resolutions for DVB transmissions. Even 640 x 576 channels exist here in Europe!

Also, mpeg 1 can't be interlace, only progressive. It simply happens and DVD support both mpeg 1 and 2 at 352 x 288 framesize. If you use mpeg 1, you are progressive and limited to 1856K. If you use mpeg 2, you can be progressive or interlace and choose whatever bitrate you wish, up to 9000!
You can use the trick with NTSC also, but only as mpeg 2 progressive for this framesize (352 x 240).

[choirislife923]

Anyways it is important to note that when you capture direct to MPEG-2 you don't want to re-encode the video after the capture.

should I use MJPEG? i dont have much HDD space left for DV video...13 gigs

I capture using PICVideo MJPEG on the 19 quality setting then I encode to MPEG-2 DVD spec using Cinema Craft Encoder aka CCE

I just did a capture of a movie that is about 1 hour and 45 minutes and the AVI file is about 18GB ... that's using Full D1 resolution with PICVideo MJPEG on 19 and PCM WAV 16-bit Stereo 48k audio.

You need a bigger HDD or just capture your MPEG-2 file at target bitrate.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

yea, i kinda have 14 gigs in DVDs...when i export them though, its gonna be better. my dvd-r drive arrives in a few days!

120GB Western Digital

[lordsmurf]

@ lordsmurf
Nice graphs

BTW, DVB transmissions can be anything from CIF to full D1. There are no "mutant" resolutions for DVB transmissions. Even 640 x 576 channels exist here in Europe!

Also, mpeg 1 can't be interlace, only progressive. It simply happens and DVD support both mpeg 1 and 2 at 352 x 288 framesize. If you use mpeg 1, you are progressive and limited to 1856K. If you use mpeg 2, you can be progressive or interlace and choose whatever bitrate you wish, up to 9000!
You can use the trick with NTSC also, but only as mpeg 2 progressive for this framesize (352 x 240).

Hmmm... must've not explained SIF interlace part too well. I'll make corrections. Thanks for pointing them out.

DVB is fine, but I mean "mutant" as it applies to DVD specs with D-values. Again, audience.

[akbor75]

i suggest making some test files.
take a video with realively much movement and sharp color edges (worst case scenario). encode it with e.g. 3000, 4000 and 5000 kbps and compare the files by placing stills of the same scene next to eachother.

[Zetti]

Hi boys,

I think I've found a suitable forum to stick with this question :

I have a SUPERB quality musical concert on VHS, very very good quality, stereo sound, etc - but, well, it's VHS...

It's 150 minutes long and I'd really like to keep its quality on single layer DVD-R;

My first choice will be to capture DV through ADVC-100, it seems OK; final audio will be 256 kbps AC-3 stereo;

WHAT BITRATE AND RESOLUTION DO YOU RECOMEND FOR VIDEO ?
VBR or CBR ?
I generally make only full D1, should I try Half D1 on this one ?

Thanks,

Zetti

[adam]

Zetti, bitrate is a given, you can use 3800kbits. For VHS sources in general, I think half-D1 is the best choice. At that bitrate you probably could get away with full D1 with no problem, but due to your source I don't think you would gain anything, and artifacts may be more prominent. Its up to you whether to use VBR or CBR. If you use half D1 CBR is probably fine, but VBR is always more efficient so there is always the potential for better quality.

[FulciLives]

Zetti, bitrate is a given, you can use 3800kbits. For VHS sources in general, I think half-D1 is the best choice. At that bitrate you probably could get away with full D1 with no problem, but due to your source I don't think you would gain anything, and artifacts may be more prominent. Its up to you whether to use VBR or CBR. If you use half D1 CBR is probably fine, but VBR is always more efficient so there is always the potential for better quality.

I agree with Adam here mostly.

The bitrate seems to be right (will be cutting it a bit close but should be fine so be sure to use a good quality DVD recordable).

I would definately do Half D1 and you probably could get away with CBR but I would do a multi-pass VBR using 2000kbps MIN, 3800kbps AVG and 5600kbps MAX.

Half D1 is perfectly fine for VHS material. I've done some of my LaserDiscs at Half D1 and they look fine and we know LD has more resolution than VHS.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Zetti]

Thanks Adam and Fulci,

I'll try Fulci's exactly settings on Canopus Procoder Express (as far as I've noticed people say it's better than TMPGEnc... )

Zetti