KVCD: Is it really worth it?

[correioelet2002]

Hi.

Just as I have, I believe many of you have been faced with a vcd video file just a bit longer than the 80+ minutes that overburning supports and less that 90 minutes long... so you end up having to burn 2 vcds because of a couple of minutes.

I had a look at the KVCD site and it seems its possible to put much more video than the usual 80+ vcd on a cdr, but quite a lot of extra configuring and softwares seem to be needed. They also say that its near DVD quality, not near VCD quality, which seems to be either surprising or strange.

Before embarking on downloading and installing all these softwares and trying out a new system which seems to be a good solution I would like to know if anyone who tried it REALLY backs it up as an alternative, since its rather odd that if this KVCD format is so good... how come its not all over the place? Not enough players support it? Difficult to convert? Poor quality? Too much work for nothing new?

I'm wondering...

Any ideas? Thanks!

JB

[ZippyP.]

If it's just a little bit over, why not just lower the bitrate a little bit? Most VCD capable DVD players will still play it. My player won't play a KVCD, but it will play a VCD with a bitrate that is a little bit lower...even a VCD encoded with VBR as long as the bitrate doesn't get too high.

[adam]

What most people don't realize is that the 1150kbit requirement is the MAX supported bitrate for VCD. You can go as low as you want and it will still be compliant as long as its CBR. If you are willing to reduce the bitrate to avoid using an extra disk, you shouldn't have any problems.

As far as KVCD, well those who use it probably love it and those who don't, like myself, just can't see the point. I've tried it and it just wasn't for me. I don't think its anywhere close to being DVD-like quality, but that's a totally subjective thing.

[teegee420]

...if this KVCD format is so good... how come its not all over the place? Not enough players support it?

Bingo. It's not a real "format" per se at all, just an organized method of non-standard specs. There just aren't enough players that support non-standard discs. There's a compatibility list on the KVCD site if you're interested in checking.

Difficult to convert?

No more difficult than VCD so long as you are using a template. You can find one in the tools section here on this site.

Poor quality?

I've seen some pretty nice looking rips, but in truth, they're about as "near DVD quality" as your standard Divx/Xvid rips.

[lordsmurf]

Overhyped and crappy quality. That's my take on it.

Some people like that.

Somebody I know is just starting into video. He was proud of his first VCD and asked for my opinion. He said it was "perfect". I said, "it sure is ... if you overlook all these blocks, the jaggy lines, and the way it jerks when the scene pans ... but other than that messiness, I guess it's okay if you sit far away and it's a small screen."

What kind of VCD was it? Why, a TMPGENC-made KVCD template VCD, of course.

Blech.

He called me an "*******". I agreed: "an *******? okay, sure, but I'm one that expects good quality. I can't watch that mess you just made. You butchered the movie."

Deinterlace is honestly the biggest killer. If it's progressive source, we'll talk, but the bitrate is still not adequate. That KVCD matrix doesn't do a whole lot.

FYI, "KVCD" is just some guy named "kwag" that named a "format" (read: not a format at all) after himself. His ego is the major force behind it, but it's simply a VCD with some non-standard settings changed.

It's a poor-man's DVD.

[dvdx_925]

The KVCD templates i would say are very good. I've used it in conjunction with avs scripts and god they are good quality if your DVD player supports it. If u use the 352x288 template u can fit 120 minutes, a whole movie on and the quality is pretty close to the standard vcd. I usually use it for crappy movies but if the movie i really like, i use the 704x576 template and the quality is excellent.

[Fluffbutt]

Firstly 1150 kbps is the highest rate to guarantee dvd player supporting the video.

the main feature of Kvcd is that is uses variable bit rates - you get 300-800 kbps on low motion, plain scenes, and 800-1850 kbps on action or busy scenes.

Kvd will play on most dvd players (especially those under 3 yrs old).

I've done a 115 min movie to a kvcd, 1 cdr, the movie (muxed with autio at 128kbps) took only 770mb on an 80 min cdr.

Results were VERY good, better than SVCD. Minor blockiness in complete pitch back areas (like when the movie ends, before the credits roll).

Conversion with Mencoder took 1 hr 38 mins (+ about 5 mins for ac3 to mp2 conversion).

I'd say - Give it a go, do it properly (so few do that !!), check you dvd player plays kvcd ok, then run with it!!

[correioelet2002]

Thanks everybody on all the feedback. I've tried both lowering the bit rate and the kvcd templates. Yes, I am definitely doing something wrong, 'cause even after reading the guides on bit rates it's not working: the files end up the same size after I convert them as non-standard VCD. Using KVCD templates they end up super big, which is the opposite of what should happen right?

[DereX888]

I wouldn't bother with any "K-VCD" etc. I've seen some kwaqSVCD (if it is the same?) and IMO its just a crap not worth even mentioning. Did I said already its crap? And staying with international standards *never* hurts.

Cant you just use 90min CD-R? And I remind you - there are also 99+min CDRs as well, altough the latter are relatively expensive, but still affordable IMO - 90min CDR are $0.99CAD, 99+minCDR are $1.90CAD (and I was able to overburn 99+ Mitsui up to 103'15'').
Any VCD burnt up to 99min 59sec will play on any standalone player that is able to play 'standard' length VCDs/SVCDs (those over 100min may not play correctly the ending on some older players).

[teegee420]

"KWAQ". That's a good one.

[pacheco]

I am definitely doing something wrong, 'cause even after reading the guides on bit rates it's not working: the files end up the same size after I convert them as non-standard VCD. Using KVCD templates they end up super big, which is the opposite of what should happen right?

I think you should read about cqmatic, because I had the same problems you did when I started. You have to do what they call file prediction, and there's a tool that does it for you automatic. It's called cqmatic and you can download it here http://kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5145

[SatStorm]

For all those intereset for the -K- "x" variations of Kwag Ideas, visit his portal www.kvcd.org
There is a forum there, with friendly and helpfull users, whose are real experts on those subjects. There are also excellent guides there for your first steps.

[Oscar wallace]

Go to the site, read a lot ,make a KVCD and if you have done it right you will never make another VCD again, but you must put the work in and do it right, you will be amazed at the quality obtainable.
Those that say it is crap quality have either never made one or have made it wrong or have a grudge against Kwag ( jealousy me thinks ).

It's a poor-man's DVD.

Yes I agree with that.

[SatStorm]

So, Oscar wallace, you call liers all those who rise a negative opinion about the -K- quality and testify them here? (including me?)

Do you mean by any chance that all those members have an opinion about the - k - xvcds without even testing it?

AND you point out that members of this community jealous of Kwag?

And all those observations by a forum UK newcomer, who posted only 13 times, all related with the - k - xvcd variation?

You are close to act like a spamer sir, and you are cutting edge regarding this forums rules. Don' t mention that you insult this forum members by calling them liers....

[Craig Tucker]

With DVD burners so cheap nowadays, my opinion is no its not worth it.

[RottenFoxBreath]

yes yes,abuse users you must not.
new-comers should be seen and not heard,because on this open forum,noone is allowed to have a view.
hell,ive been a member here for years,and just recently lost my old email address,couldnt remember my password etc,so made a new account-stopped all the farking about,so i guess im a newcomer too.
but IMO,KVCD,and SKVCD,are pretty good quality when done right,not blocky,etc.
picture and sound were really good.
also ,i made an SKVCD of my home movies,and was well impressed by fitting nearly 2 hours on 1 cd,so i made a KVCD,and could squeeze a 3 hour home cam of a family members wedding onto a cd(it was a few years old and captured on an older sony tape camcorder.

[SatStorm]

RottenFoxBreath, we mods have access to the member IPs so we know if you are a newcomer or not......
If you have logged in with the same PC and with the same account once, it is easy to see who is a newcomer and who is a newbie.

On short terms, don't try to be a smart ass...

[offline]

lost my old email address,couldnt remember my password etc

Please supply your old nickname. I'll refer it to the admin so
we can get your old account active. At the moment we are
not picking you up as an old user but this could be because
you have just joined Blueyonder. I'll PM this message
to you as well. Reply either here or PM and I promise
I will get on it straight away.

Thanks Mod Offline

[bugster]

Go to the site, read a lot ,make a KVCD and if you have done it right you will never make another VCD again,

Or just as likley find it won't play in your chosen player.

[kenboon]

I agree with Lord Smurfs Quote

"KVCD" is just some guy named "kwag" that named a "format" (read: not a format at all) after himself. His ego is the major force behind it, but it's simply a VCD with some non-standard settings changed.

Like many People that use these forums me among them, they have had a play with the settings on tmpgenc to get the best out of it and then made a template, and quite simply thats all that kvcd is

quality wise not to good in my opinion, but each to there own opinion i guess.

[thegig]

I think for small projects it's pretty good. Not for movies though, TV episodes, or quick "family shots" to mail are all I ever use it for now that DVDs are so cheap. No reason to waste a perfectly good DVD for a couple episodes or a quick 40-50 min clip of a school play :P . IMO

Not that my kid's plays are a waste , they do eventually get backed up to DVD - eventually.

KWAG put alot of effort into his templates, and I give kuddo's. But as technology changes and prices drop, the compatibility issues start to take precedence, I estimated another year and I will not be using the templates for anything.

Just my two cents.

[poerschr]

I would definately aggree that kwag (and all of his followers) and the KVCD format is bunk...I have worked with them for a little while, and I noticed that they didn't really do anything...they only thing that they have come up with is an encoding matrix....that's it!!! Other people have developed that movie stacker program...they are good with help for newbies, thats one good thing...

It is not a DVD, but I think that the K-SVCD is close (not perfect), I chose not to develop it further, becasue of the sound issue, why would you want to settle with mpeg2 sound?....K-VCD is almost worthless anyway becasue it just won't play in many players...but, I you want to compress something a little more, to fit it on a CD, by all means use it. However, becasue of using CQ in Tmpgenc, you have a hard time to predict the file size, you you will probably be encoding twice, or even more. I would definately recommand K-SVCD through...

[poerschr]

Forget about KVCD fullscreen (4:3), or even KSVCD fullscreen...that is definitely not going to be DVD quality….that is something they never tell you….it’s just too much data to compress to make it look good….

[pacheco]

But as technology changes and prices drop, the compatibility issues start to take precedence, I estimated another year and I will not be using the templates for anything.

I agree with you, if you are talking about kvcd for CDR/KVCD/KSVCD, but I don't agree for kdvd related stuff, using their techniques.
I don't see any problem using kdvd stuff with any future mpeg-2 dvd related stuff, because it's dvd compatible.
I don't see anybody complaints about kdvd.

-kenboon
I don't agee with you and other who seem to be very biased, without doing some investigations.
Why don't you do a little search yourself, and look at what's going on in the world!

I've found some interesting stuff myself about kvcd that maybe all should read, so I think there's something more to kvcd than all the crap I keep reading here about being >>templates only<<.

for unix>
http://kvcd4nix.sourceforge.net/index.html

the mencoder/mplayer group has built-in kvcd support>
http://www.mplayerhq.hu/DOCS/HTML/en/custommatrices.html

the mjpeg tools also has kvcd built-in>
"use the -K|--custom-quant-matrices option"
https://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=3456&group_id=5776

dvd player reviewed in French magazine, which mentions kvcd.
See page 3>
http://www.kiss-technology.com/files/reviews/review_dp450_divx.pdf

from Marc Peters, Digital Video Director>
http://www.marcpeters.co.uk/VCD-alternatives.html

from John Navas, who mentioned kvcd in a TechTV show/article>
http://navasgrp.home.att.net/tech/video/xvcd.htm

from the developers at the mplayer group>

" The claim that the Kvcd tables reduce the "splotches" during
dark scenes is true - the dimly lit scenes do look better when
using the Kvcd tables.

Cheers,
Steven Schultz"

http://www1.mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/mplayer-dev-eng/2003-October/021535.html

[magwell]

For low-rez VCDs, especially animation, Kwag's templates are excellent. Using a standard KVCD template, I'm able to squeeze 120 mins+ on an 80 min CD-R and still achieve great quailty.

[poerschr]

Well, yes it more than just a template for a matrix, Kwag does use a different GOP structure as well...but its really no major breakthrough. If he engineered a new encoder then that would be a different story.

If really want to experiment with some new technology, I recommend eitherffvfw or memcoder (both for mpeg2, either SVCD or DVD). But you have to learn avisynth...

[poerschr]

@magwell
yes, you said it exactly....it was all orginally designed for anime, and someone said, yea, it works for regular footage was well....

[pacheco]

@magwell
yes, you said it exactly....it was all orginally designed for anime

Where can I find this information?

[Sabro]

Never delt with the KVCD templates, however have had VERY good luck using EasyVCD with the settings : No split (1 output file), XVCD, 1 disc and the type of disc your using (80 Min 700MB CDR) with normal quality.

Been able to get 99% of all my original DVDs backed up to one CDr with, in my opinion, pretty good quality. Did get ScarFace (3 hour movie) backed up
to 1 disc as well, but the bitrate was very low and wasnt that good but didnt toss it either.


So I'd say a good majority of your DVDs could hit 1 CDr with EasyVCD using the above settings.

Sabro

[lordsmurf]

KDVD = deinterlaced only = useless to the masses
(using interlace is going to cause a ruckus with the kwag matrix, and it is not a supported "k" feature, only progressive)

It also darkens scenes severely and seems to compress the color palette a bit too.

You don't need kwag's stuff to make more fit on a disc. You simply have to know how to use your own encoders. BJ_M quite easily proved that in another thread last week.

Again, as I've said everywhere else, NO IT IS NOT WORTH IT. Maybe if you're a newbie ripping DVDs to VCD, then maybe its a good place to start. But I seem to meet more people wanting to convert VHS to DVD than I see copying DVD to VCD (and even then, use Sefy's guides).