KVCD: Is it really worth it?

[SatStorm]

I think that leads only to bad things, hurting all of us, so....

[vitualis]

SatStorm, I've unlocked this thread because I don't think it is actually going "mad" as such.

@ pacheco: I've mentioned nothing about "KDVD" because (i) I don't know much about it, and (ii) this doesn't have anything to do with the question "KVCD: Is it really worth it?".

As for being a "detractor" of KVCD, yes, I am. This has nothing too much to do with kwag. I've been a detractor of "XVCD" mostly as I don't see much of a point for non-standard S/VCDs when you can actually achieve most of what you want to do with clever encoding of SVCDs/CVDs.

Most of my more vitriolic objections to KVCD generally had to do with outrageous claims from kwag and his supporters tried dumping on this forum. kwag has actually calmed down quite a bit now, but I see that some people discovering his version of X/S/VCDs still think that it is the best thing since sliced bread. So let's get this straight:

1. kwag's methods and templates as I have stated in several posts are really very good for X/S/VCDs.
2. kwag's preprocessing methods have merit even if you don't use his templates, but I would caution against over filtering your video before encoding.
3. kwag has not made a new format (as per disc format) and nor has he made up a new compression scheme.
4. There will never be a hardware player branded with KVCD compatibility.
5. You will not EVER get 100+ minutes of "DVD quality video" as judged by the vast majority of people on a single CD-R using MPEG-1 or MPEG-2 based compression (unless your source is really unusual).
6. Whatever MPEG-1/MPEG-2 encoding variations you make, it will never look as good as a well-encoded MPEG-4 clip generally at the same bitrate.

Can you get longer length (compared to standard VCD) and better looking video (compared to standard VCD) using kwag's methods? Definitely.

Is it "really worth it" (i.e., the question of the original poster)? I personally think not in this current time where we have relatively cheap DVD recording, MPEG-4 codecs and hardware MPEG-4 players. Many people also don't think so.

If you want to play with it though, no one is going to stop you and you're going to get much more help going to kwag's forums than here.

lordsmurf has a right to his opinion that kwag's templates are crap, just as you have a right to believe that they are fantastic. What you obviously still haven't realised is that quality is subjective. Some people even think that DVD is crap (when compared to HDTV) while many people live quite comfortable watching VHS...

Regards.

[pacheco]

@ pacheco: and (ii) this doesn't have anything to do with the question "KVCD: Is it really worth it?".

hi vitualis.
You're right on that one

As for being a "detractor" of KVCD, yes, I am. This has nothing too much to do with kwag. I've been a detractor of "XVCD" mostly as I don't see much of a point for non-standard S/VCDs when you can actually achieve most of what you want to do with clever encoding of SVCDs/CVDs.

But I disagree with that statement.
The point is that not everybody has svcd players! Many people can only play vcd, so they don't have any other choice. So kvcd is way better that any vcd, because to my eyes, it's the same quality but you have far more play time than any vcd.
Mind you, i'm aware of the compatibility issues, but in my case I have no problems in my Toshiba SD3900
As far as quality being subjective, yes you are right, but up to a point where there is a big difference that anyone can tell the good from the bad, and then it's not subjective any longer
It's common knowledge to people making kvcd's that 120 minutes on one cd looks just as good as a constant bitrate eighty minute vcd.
I can testify to that, because it's true. So true that if you zoom in on a vcd and on the kvcd 200% or even 300% in virtualdub, you can't tell the difference. As a matter of fact, the kvcd will show better quality on the dark conditions, because of the matrix table.
I don't want to sound like a scratched record again, because i already mentioned this on another thread, but the developers of the mplayer team acknowledge this, and that's why they included the kvcd matrix table into mencoder.
Yes, kvcd is not standard, but why settle for 80 minutes on a cd when i can fit 120 minutes, looking as good or better?
It's a perfect resolution for tv captures and i can easily push three 45 minute episodes on one cdr, that will look the same as if i used a plain vcd with only one episode on it.
And you are right about dvd quality on a cd. That is not possible, unless the picture is very short. But as far as vcd quality, it is true and their claims of 120 minutes on one cd at vcd resolution are far better that any regular vcd.
But i also want to mention that many people, me included, have also used svcd resolutions with kvcd tables, and in most cases the 120 minute mark is also achieved on one cd. So why settle for the regular 45 minute svcd?
And as far as compatibility, not like the case of a kvcd, you can do a standard svcd with kvcd tables that will allow the 120 minute goal, and that is a 100% compatible svcd!
Because svcd supports variable bitrate, not like vcds, there's no reason not to use those parameters and compression methods applied to your own svcds.
But then i guess i'm now off topic, because i started to talk about svcd and ksvcds, and this thread is about kvcd's

[Capmaster]

And when you bunch of jerks can get HDTV quality on an 8-track like I do, then you'll have room to talk, and not any of this vaunted "dvd" nonsense. Even Blu-ray will not be able to match my S2KV8T (which is compliant even for VideoNow!).

[adam]

As for being a "detractor" of KVCD, yes, I am. This has nothing too much to do with kwag. I've been a detractor of "XVCD" mostly as I don't see much of a point for non-standard S/VCDs when you can actually achieve most of what you want to do with clever encoding of SVCDs/CVDs.

But I disagree with that statement.
The point is that not everybody has svcd players! Many people can only play vcd, so they don't have any other choice. So kvcd is way better that any vcd, because to my eyes, it's the same quality but you have far more play time than any vcd.

But that is a completely circular argument. What about all the people who have players that support SVCD and not kvcd?

I think Vitualis and everyone else has already qualified their opinions here. DVD players in general are very cheap now. Formats like SVCD and VCD are widely supported. DVD burners and media are really getting very affordable. In light of the current market, more and more people are finding themselves in a situation where they have better options than kvcd. I won't argue that kvcds aren't a viable option to the guy who doesn't have a dvd burner or a player that supports SVCD. The point is that there aren't too many of those guys around anymore, and when faced with a choice, its much easier to spend $50 on a new player now, then to have to face the risk of later having an entire movie collection that can't be played at all.

[Capmaster]

To almost repeat a post in another thread, a few years ago when DVD creation was expensive and fringe, there was a place for VCD and SVCD, and other "get something for nothing" formats. Why not? You could buy a CD burner for $90 then, and a good DVD burner would set you back $500.

But like 8-tracks and VHS, their time has come and gone. They served their purpose, but today you wouldn't make a cassette tape of your favorite songs would you? I would hope you'd burn a CD like I would. Why would anyone want to dwell in the CD video world when you can buy a DVD burner for $50, a decent DVD blank media for $1.25 - $1.50 and it holds 7 times as much data?

[SatStorm]

Just to clearify:

When I read things like

" can now see the kind of trash you are!
Your comment to rds_correia suck!, just like you!!!!!
I know the kind of weasel you are now, specially after looking at your registration for your site"

without a question, a formal warning must be given and the post lock.

I'm ******* 30 years old hard working *******, giving my 5 min per day to this forum from my free time. On that 5 min, I don't need to read this. And I bet, many of our member here, are with me on this.
I know first hand the longtime users here. When they are off topic, they can do whatever you can imagine. But when they read on topic, they don't wish to read shit.
That's why I lock it.

You won't succed to make pacheco and the rest understand something. They are not here to discuss. Just read them on their other posts. They are here only to speak. So, we wasting time, energy and forum bandwith doing this...

Anyway, maybe I am just an *******, as supreme2k state all those months....

[Guest]

Life is short.Drink more ouzo before the bans

[fritzi93]

Let's see if we can get back on-topic. I notice there's a "KVCD Notch Matrix" option in DVDRebuilder. What the hell, think I'll test it. My curiousity is aroused. :P

[jimmalenko]

When I read things like

" can now see the kind of trash you are!
Your comment to rds_correia suck!, just like you!!!!!
I know the kind of weasel you are now, specially after looking at your registration for your site"

without a question, a formal warning must be given and the post lock.

I disagree. a word of caution, yes, formal warning and post lock, no. If you warn/ban someone, why does everyone else have to suffer by locking the thread. Eject the problem user and let everyone who was playing nicely continue about their daily business.

I'm ******* 30 years old hard working *******, giving my 5 min per day to this forum from my free time. On that 5 min, I don't need to read this. And I bet, many of our member here, are with me on this.
I know first hand the longtime users here. When they are off topic, they can do whatever you can imagine. But when they read on topic, they don't wish to read shit.
That's why I lock it.

I am surprised that a mod would feel the need to vent like this....oh wait, it's SatStorm, no I'm not really surprised at all now.

Is Charity a dirty word around here ?

You won't succed to make pacheco and the rest understand something. They are not here to discuss. Just read them on their other posts. They are here only to speak. So, we wasting time, energy and forum bandwith doing this...

Anyway, maybe I am just an *******, as supreme2k state all those months....

I do agree - certain people in this thread believe that their way is the only way. People need to be a little bit more open minded and accept that what is acceptable to you is worthless crap to me. You don't have to like that fact but at least accept it and move on.

[pacheco]

People need to be a little bit more open minded and accept that what is acceptable to you is worthless crap to me.

I agree 1000000% with that

[richdvd]

I agree 1000000% with that

If you agree with that..you might want to go back and read some of your posts again. From what I can see, you were the one causing the most trouble in this thread.

[jimmalenko]

I agree 1000000% with that

If you agree with that..you might want to go back and read some of your posts again. From what I can see, you were the one causing the most trouble in this thread.

pacheco was the one I directed my comment at.

Funny how attitudes change after a card has been issued.....

[pacheco]

Funny how attitudes change after a card has been issued.....

No my friends, the funny thing is that you didn't get the real meaning of my comment
The "I agree 1000000% with that" comment works both ways, if you know what I mean

[Supreme2k]

Anyway, maybe I am just an *******, as supreme2k state all those months....

As I have said to another member,
on me.

[jimmalenko]

The "I agree 1000000% with that" comment works both ways, if you know what I mean

Let me try....

You're saying that there are people here who aren't showing any respect for your point of view. While you think KVCD is the bee's knees, others here do not and you would like them to accept your decisions regardless of whether they personally agree with them.

How'd I go ?

[pacheco]

You're saying that there are people here who aren't showing any respect for your point of view.

I am saying that many people here aren't showing any respect, because they don't even know what kvcd is, and are just assuming is crap without even giving it a try.

While you think KVCD is the bee's knees, others here do not and you would like them to accept your decisions regardless of whether they personally agree with them.

Don't try to put your words and your thoughts in my mouth. I respect people that try and then with proven facts, reply that they didn't like it for x y or z reason.
I don't accept creeps who follow the tide without even making their own tests to come to final conclusions.
I see some people here that say 'I tried the templates, and they are crap', without even taking a good look at the complete procedure that is involved in making a kvcd.
But i guess most are newbies, and i can understand that

Anywy, and back to the topic of this thread, ''KVCD: Is it really worth it?''
In my opinion, and last post related to this thread, based on reading many hours on their site and puting to practice all of those things like avisynth, motion adapting filtering scripts, very accurate and precise cropping and resizing methods (thank you very much Incredible for your wonderful mencoder automation program Pack-Shot for making kdvd) and for excelent mencoder front ends (thanks you vmesquita for your excelent programs Mencode-ME and DIKO), all I can say is that it's not easy to make a kvcd, but the efforts are well worth it
Although the programs mentioned above are making life a lot simpler!
Last but not least, thanks kwag for your kvcd notch tables and for all your programs, cqmatic, calcumatic, kvcd media player, dikumcizer (sorry if i spelled it wrong!) and sorry if i missed something!

[jimmalenko]

You're saying that there are people here who aren't showing any respect for your point of view.

I am saying that many people here aren't showing any respect, because they don't even know what kvcd is, and are just assuming is crap without even giving it a try.

While you think KVCD is the bee's knees, others here do not and you would like them to accept your decisions regardless of whether they personally agree with them.

Don't try to put your words and your thoughts in my mouth.

That is not the case. I am not forcing my words of thoughts upon you at all. WTF gave you that idea ? If I am wrong, correct me.

The "I agree 1000000% with that" comment works both ways, if you know what I mean

No, WTF do you mean ????????

Learn how to express yourself more clearly and you'll avoid arguments like the one you have started here. Learn how to pull your head outta your ass also

[DereX888]

I am saying that many people here aren't showing any respect, because they don't even know what kvcd is, and are just assuming is crap without even giving it a try.

pacheco, I re-read this stupid (IMO) thread again now just to make sure.
Everyone who replied in this thread has had tried kvcd at some point, therefore YOU should assume they know what kvcd is, not the opposite

What you fail to understand is that no one says "kvcd sux". Everyone(basically) says "kvcd is a relic from the past, leave it and get on with current standards like DVD or MPEG-4". Since you've mention your standalone player cant read SVCD now I understand your affection to KVCD. If it works for you - its all good.
But you have to understand that there arent many people like you.
I have friends in really poor countries like Poland, Malaysia, Egypt - and they all actually use standalone dvd players with divx playback support (mpeg-4 i mean) - brands i never heard of here in America (bellwood? kiss? etc ). This example is my answer to you: they are smart even thou they are probably poorer than you are (I assume that from the fact that you cant buy different or another player to play 'normal' standards like SVCD). You are not smart if youre sticking to creation of non-standard discs which you will not able to play anymore sooner or later (no matter how poor you are you WILL buy another player at some point in your life, and it wont play any of your kvcd discs - I can place a bet now). Whats worse - you are trying to tell everyone else that we are actually wrong for not using some non-standard format... Come on! PM me your address and if you cover shipping I'll send you one of my old apexes that play anything (except kvcd hehe) just to stop you from posting any more kvcd bullshit here. Im serious.

Someone else mentioned about "rest of the world" where CD-burner is as much as you can get. Well - my answer is read again what most of us said: USE MPEG-4 in that case (xvid etc) which obviously will give you better quality per single disc than any k(s)vcd ever would - I hope you agree with this statement?

[fmctm1sw]

I thought this thread had died a slow painful death. I agree with warning for the personal shots, there is just no reason for it by anyone. Kwag's templates are great for some folks, and not so great for other folks. But, coming here to talk about KVCD is like logging on to the Cleaveland Browns message board and trying to talk about how good the Pittsburgh Steelers are. It just isn't going to work. There is a site dedicated to Kwag's templates and I'm happy it is doing well. The guy took time and effort to create a product he freely shares with whoever is interested in it (from what I can tell). It's just one more option available to you if you like it. My opinion? Don't have one. Never used it. And since I'm now buring DVD's, I won't use it. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it just like everyone else. Now, where's the ?

[SatStorm]

@ jimmalenko

I am surprised that a mod would feel the need to vent like this....oh wait, it's SatStorm, no I'm not really surprised at all now.

Is Charity a dirty word around here ?

It has nothing to do with Charity. It is something called "Filotimo" and it is a word and meaning non existed outside Greeks. You are from Australia, so you might have Greek friends. Ask them to explain to you what "Filotimo" is all about...

@Supreme2k: Irony and cynism, would be warned by me from now on when they used by members without a reason, just for the fun of it.

[jimmalenko]

@ jimmalenko

I am surprised that a mod would feel the need to vent like this....oh wait, it's SatStorm, no I'm not really surprised at all now.

Is Charity a dirty word around here ?

It has nothing to do with Charity. It is something called "Filotimo" and it is a word and meaning non existed outside Greeks. You are from Australia, so you might have Greek friends. Ask them to explain to you what "Filotimo" is all about...

"The word is difficult to translate into English," explained Rammos after thumbing through a couple of Greek-English dictionaries. "It contains a sense of honor, obligation, self-respect, and teamwork. Literally, it means love of honor. To defend your country is the highest achievement for any Greek citizen. Actions of selflessness for the defense of one's country are the essence of filotimo."

Is this accurate ?

Sounds awfully like jihad.

I don't think you understood what I was talking about when I said "charity".

[SatStorm]

"It contains a sense of honor, obligation, self-respect, and teamwork. Literally, it means love of honor"
This is close, but as you see, you can't exactly understand it!

The example given is not exactly accurate. You can use "filotimo" to "defend your country", but you also use "filotimo" to help your kids even if they are lazy 50 year old bastards, and you are 90 with one foot in grave!!!!

Other example: We don't like our neighbour Turks. In the matter of fact, most of us hate them. We almost daily ready for war with them.

Then, an earth strike appears and Turks had a dissaster. Because we have filotimo, we run first to help them.

Filotimo is one of those things you can't understand when you are not Greek.

In the matter of fact, filotimo is what make us and keep us Greeks!

[lordsmurf]

Don't the Spanish have something very similar? I think so.

[SatStorm]

No, neither the Italians...

Spanish have something like that, but it is based on their traditions and their relation with their Religion.
Our "filotimo" does not have to do with tradition or Religion. The Greek is not the one who follows our traditions, the same religion or even the language. What makes him a Greek is the "filotimo" it has. That's why you see a 4th generation Greek American, keep saying "I'm Greek".

When you lost this sence of "filotimo", then you lost your connection with Greece (current / ancient).
With the Spanish (and Italians) you lost this connection when you stop following the rules, the traditions and the religion.

Filotimo is not something determined. It is something you feel. On the Italian and the Spanish Cultures, their version is determined (that's why it is called different...)

[lordsmurf]

Spanish have something like that, but it is based on their traditions and their relation with their Religion.

Yep, that's the one.

Well, you're right. I have no clue what you're talking about.
Like they say "it's all Greek to me!" :P

[SatStorm]

Exactly...

[jimmalenko]

This is close, but as you see, you can't exactly understand it!

...

Filotimo is one of those things you can't understand when you are not Greek.

In the matter of fact, filotimo is what make us and keep us Greeks!

Sounds like you guys invented it so that you would feel superior or special

WTF has that got to do with the price of fish ?

[mikesbytes]

Sounds like I need to add video encoding strategy to the list with religion and politics as never to be discussed at the office

[fritzi93]

This one's gotten hopelessly