KVCD: Is it really worth it?

[pacheco]

KDVD = deinterlaced only = useless to the masses
(using interlace is going to cause a ruckus with the kwag matrix, and it is not a supported "k" feature, only progressive)

Err, excuse me, but I asked you the question in another post, and you never answered: Could you please point me to a place I can find information where it says that kdvd can't be interlaced?
If you do find it, I'll be more that happy to go back to MPEG-2 school!

It also darkens scenes severely and seems to compress the color palette a bit too.

That's not what the experienced and advanced developers of mencoder and mjpeg tools seem to think!
Or do you feel that you are more knowledgeable than all of them?

You don't need kwag's stuff to make more fit on a disc. You simply have to know how to use your own encoders. BJ_M quite easily proved that in another thread last week.

Yes I read it, and half didn't make sense

Again, as I've said everywhere else, NO IT IS NOT WORTH IT. Maybe if you're a newbie ripping DVDs to VCD, then maybe its a good place to start.

Maybe it's the other way around

But I seem to meet more people wanting to convert VHS to DVD than I see copying DVD to VCD (and even then, use Sefy's guides).

Yes, I agree to that.

[lordsmurf]

Kwag's forums state in numerous posts that the matrix is made for progressive source. Interlace creates field-based files.

As far as asking if I'm smarter than xyz people you mentioned... could very well be the case. The thing you have to realize about programmers is they normally don't know huge amounts about video. They worry too much about the science, but video is a mix of science and art.

Kwag's stuff has a very defined use.
#1 progressive source in high quality with no noise (essentially only a commercial DVD rip or IVTC DVD rip)
#2 high compression while attempting to maintain some amount of quality (though be prepared to lose color/dark values at times)
#3 it comes at a price of non-compliancy specs (for both DVD or CD and limited players will play them)

If you can deal with those 3 things, then go for it!

But it's also not the "best" method. Again, BJ_M gave some clips. I could too if I wanted to take time (don't care to). It's all about knowing about video and your encoder. Newbies dont, so this is why they flock to it like a bug to a bug zapper. You said BJ_M didn't make sense? Well, sorry, but I've got to call you a newbie for that. He makes perfect sense to me most of the time, and if he doesn't, I ask him for clarification.

[CaseyComb]

After experimenting with various KVCD templates I have come to the conclusion that those who swear by it have never owned a TV with a screen bigger than 13 inches..

Krappy
Video
Compression
Disc

Really... not a single one up to snuff.

[pacheco]

Kwag's forums state in numerous posts that the matrix is made for progressive source. Interlace creates field-based files.

A matrix has nothing to do with progressive or interlaced sources, and that's a mathematical fact.
I'm sure they prefer progressive sources, but that doesn't mean they can't do interlaced sources.

As far as asking if I'm smarter than xyz people you mentioned... could very well be the case. The thing you have to realize about programmers is they normally don't know huge amounts about video. They worry too much about the science, but video is a mix of science and art.

You just made my day!
ROTF
Now I definitely know you are a noooooob

you have to realize about programmers is they normally don't know huge amounts about video
you have to realize about programmers is they normally don't know huge amounts about video
you have to realize about programmers is they normally don't know huge amounts about video
you have to realize about programmers is they normally don't know huge amounts about video

Sorry, I just had to quote that again
Go tell that to any of the Mplayer developers and see what they will tell you.

[lordsmurf]

Quote it bigger if you want. That's a statement that I stand behind. It makes sites like mine and this one all the more needed.

[johns0]

Some of these posts remind me of naked geeks followers posting in defense,not knowing much and insulting others who have been around.

[LanEvo7]

Buy a divx/xvid dvd player and encode the videos in divx. You'll be better quality and compression without all the headaches.

[DereX888]

Oscar wallace:

Go to the site, read a lot ,make a KVCD and if you have done it right you will never make another VCD again, but you must put the work in and do it right, you will be amazed at the quality obtainable.

Why bother AT ALL with standard VCD format, or any idiotic sub-standards, like kwaq, xvcd, etc?
If you really need cheap CD-R-based substitute for DVDs then spend your time and efforts to learn how to make standard-compliant MPEG-2 videos in SVCD or CVD formats. At least both are formats playable on most of standalone dvd players.... and if your argument is that you don't own stndalone player, or you have crap player that cant play SVCDs - well, buy another one, they won't be cheaper than they already are. And if you live at your daddy's home - and no money is your excuse - how about going out to work anywhere just for few hours and buying it yourself...

Those that say it is crap quality have either never made one or have made it wrong or have a grudge against Kwag ( jealousy me thinks ).

I have no clue what this idiotic name/nick/short/whatever "kwaq" stands for (personally it reminds me of donald duck's "quacks") hence how could I be jealous of it or have a grudge against it?? Dude, something wrong with your brain if you do think in such categories...
Anyway many of us have alot against it: most important IT IS NOT ANY STANDARD. It doesnt play on standalones. Whats the point to make any MPEG-based video if it doesnt play on most of standalones? Might as well quit it and make xvid AVIs if you use computer only to play them!

Quote:
It's a poor-man's DVD.


Yes I agree with that.

So what? Everything less than usual dvd standard is a "poor man's dvd"!


Craig Tucker:

With DVD burners so cheap nowadays, my opinion is no its not worth it.

Its not the burners. Its the *consumer-market player devices* what defines what is standard and whats not, more than any ISO comitee ever will. I.e. if there were any kwaq standalone dvd recorders for $10/ea - what good would they do anyone since there is no 'kwaq' playback support on average standalone dvd player. For same reasons windows or real media, QT, and any other crappy formats - no matter how revamped with VBR options etc etc - they are still off standard crap.
Therefore either DVD-Video MPEG-2 compliant standards, or to lesser degree the mpeg-4-based AVIs (xvid/divx) are in fact the only standards out there. Ditto.




RottenFoxBreath:

but IMO,KVCD,and SKVCD,are pretty good quality when done right,not blocky,etc.
picture and sound were really good.

No one denies the quality. KwaqVCD is better quality than standard VCD. What we (or at least me) say is that its just not worth to spend time and resources for creation of non-compliant format discs, which isnt any real alternative to anything. Why bother with this KwaqVCD if you can make CVD instead? Obviously same movie, on the same number of discs, will have same - or better - quality than the KwaqVCD.
And IMO this just sums it all up.

After all: Kwaq or no quack ;wink: if it makes you happy - and doesnt bother anyone else - then do it!

[lordsmurf]

I have no clue what this idiotic name/nick/short/whatever "kwaq" stands for (personally it reminds me of donald duck's "quacks")

Karl Wagner
Softronex Corporation <- I doubt this is really registered (do not know for sure)http://www.kvcd.org

... this info is all on his site in one place or another, nothing secret about it

[lpn1160]

DVD burner prices are falling
The time and effort spent on squeezing subjective vcd quality on 1 or more CDR's.....
Come on get with the program

[dvdx_925]

Why are people saying so many bad things about kvcd. Every dvd movie i have converted, i have used these templates, usually the 704x576 in addition with avs scripts and many other tools combined to ensure the best quality

And i can say the quality is really good, compared to the standard vcd with constant bitrate and works with my dvd player. Maybe the low compatiability is the problem. So please you either support it or not, but don't bad mouth.

It's like the good old quote, "is the glass half full or half empty?" One may see it as good but the other may see it as bad.

[SatStorm]

Because some of you out there don't understand the need for CD based video solutions, here is the short answer:

Outside North America, E.U., Japan and Australia, the salaries are very lower and for them DVD recorders still are very (and I mean very) expensive.
Only recently, after the CD Burners drop lower than 30$, they became affordable to those people. Hell, there are countries that 30$ is a months salary!
But this is internet and internet is international: Those people have access to knowledge and solutions to their needs same way we do. BUT: they don't have our money. So, is like show them candy, but not to eat it!
For those people, which is the majority of this planet, the CD based solutions is the closest thing they have to all this "video" thing we are talking about here.
To them, kvcd, the spanish cvcd before it and that german variation called mvcd are promising things and providing alternatives for needs we don't have, but they sure have.

Kwag "success" based on his community and the way he supports his ideas. He is in a way "charismatic" on this.
The problem with Kwag is on how he promote his ideas. IMHO, he just hurt himself with all this, but he can't realise it. Reading his possie here, I can understand why this is happening.

[dvdx_925]

What's with everyone bad-mouthing kvcd. I've been using it for as long as i know, maybe when this site was still called vcehelp.com and i can say the templates are great. I use the 704x576 templates, avs scripts and other tools combined to get the possible quality from conversion. And i can say the quality beats vcd a lot, instead of the crappy constant bitrate vcd uses, this use's variable like xvcd except it is much better.

Also, the prediction program on the site allows you the use the possible amount of space on the cd, but raising the cq value to the highest posssible amount.

So, please don't say it's shit juz becuase it doesn't work for u. Everyone see it's differently. Like the good old quote, "Is the glass half empty or half full?"

[dvdx_925]

Sorry about the double post, i thought it didn't post it.

[Oscar wallace]

After experimenting with various KVCD templates I have come to the conclusion that those who swear by it have never owned a TV with a screen bigger than 13 inches..

Try using a script next time and follow the guides, and may I also suggest a eye test.


Lordsmurf wrote,

Kwag's stuff has a very defined use.
#1 progressive source in high quality with no noise (essentially only a commercial DVD rip or IVTC DVD rip)
#2 high compression while attempting to maintain some amount of quality (though be prepared to lose color/dark values at times)
#3 it comes at a price of non-compliancy specs (for both DVD or CD and limited players will play them)

If you can deal with those 3 things, then go for it!

I go along with all that, but what you have stated is a million miles away from crap quality, and the first piont about source HI-FI users have known that for years.

[bugster]

And i can say the quality beats vcd a lot,

...

So, please don't say it's shit juz becuase it doesn't work for u.

Quality is very subjective. I have encoded stuff using Kwags templates/methods. I have also seen clips encoded by self proclaimed experts using the same methods. I wasn't impressed with the quality. Sure it was smaller than compliant VCD, but personally I would rather put up with multiple disks than kvcd.

KVCD excellent quality. No.
KVCD good quality in relation to filesize, maybe.

But you can't escape the fact that KVCD, and all other video compression techniques, is a trade off between quality and filesize.

Just my opinion.

[rgs_uk]

If you are stuck with having to put stuff onto CD, I think they are very useful. I did a series of tests to see which templates worked with my DVD player. The large format MPEG1 templates are quite amazing.

The main problem for me was the speed. My PC time is vauable. TMPGEnc is slow to begin with and KVCD is even slower. I don't have time to spend 3 or 4 hours encoding one hour of MPEG2 video. When with MainConcept I can encode in 'real time' (an hour of video in an hour).

[energy80s]

I have used Karl's templates in the past and they do produce good quality (better than VCD) output onto a CDR. They will play on most standalones (apart from older brand named ones like Sony or Toshiba) and they are very configurable. But the days of CDR are numbered and DVDR drives are really starting to become affordable (in another couple of years it may be hard to get a CDR drive) so the reasons behind the KVCD encodes are starting to disappear.

[rds_correia]

Hi there,
I thought, and may I emphasize that I really thought!, we were a one big encoding family.
I had no idea that someone could come here at vcdhelp (that's the original name isn't it?) and start flaming anybody just because he/she sees things in a different way.
I've had it with all this nonsense!
I asked Moderators to be aware of this problem and I see no measures taking place.
In such sense I feel that I am entitled to do the same.
That's not reasonable that just because a noob wants some information on an -x- format a big shot like lordsmurf comes in all full of s*** and just says "crappy".
He knows that his post count here will draw the noob attention somewhere else. Why may I ask? Why not say, "I don't like it so much because........but if you are still interested in finding out more you can look at www.xxxx.zzz"
I took with great respect the words from SatStorm but if he doesn't put an end to some kind of behaviour from some of our pals here, I'll start doing the exact same thing they are doing.
That is, with a big difference: I' won't do it in their backs as they are doing with Karl for instance.
For those who stand against KDVD, can you name a good reason for not using it???? Compliancy??? Proove that it's not 100% DVD compliant. Because of the matrix in use?? You gotta be kidding! Name the place where you can see clearly written that you can't use your own!!!
I'll visit you all in a couple of days, and I really hope that in the mean time someone can put things back where they belong in terms of behaviour.
Cheers

[vitualis]

It is not particularly difficult to make a non-standard VCD that looks better than VCD. People have been making XVCD long before KVCD came around when "kwag" was still a newbie on this forum.

kwag's templates and methods are quite good, but for those of us who have done this for quite a while, we also realise the limitations of XVCDs. As others have clearly stated, there is a trade off between filesize, quality and disc compliance. For many of us, kwag's templates are not a good solution at the end of the day. If I want to go for the highest degree of compatitibility, I would go with straight VCD... and if you know how to do it properly, it still looks round about as good as VHS -- which isn't too bad.

If I want better quality, SVCD and CVD is a good options.

If I want better quality still, I would seriously consider going down the DVD line which will give you much better quality than any of the KVCD/KSVCD variants.

Simply put, the question of "KVCD: is it really worth it?" can be cast as "X/S/VCD: is it really worth it?". Go back a few years and the answer was "maybe" if you didn't care all too much about future compatibility and you wanted more flexible encoding options for your discs. I personally think that it is rather difficult to logically justify making non-standard S/VCDs now.

A lot of you newbies probably don't know when kwag graced these forums and put forth his more "outlandish" claims. "Outlandish" because some of his claims were utter crap. I'm sure members of my vintage remember "120 minutes at DVD quality", "KVCD is a new format/standard", "Apex is going to make official KVCD compatible branded players", etc. This and a completely new template with yet another acronym every second week seriously eroded kwag's credibility.

Regards.

[lordsmurf]

Why not say, "I don't like it so much because........but if you are still interested in finding out more you can look at www.xxxx.zzz"

I can answer a question any way I see fit. This isn't a communist-repressed place.

I don't know much about the social/culture of Portugal, but where I come from, I can call something "trash" and no further explanation is needed. (However, I often explain my position.) I think we may have simply hit a cultural barrier.

Beyond that, virtualis said it best.

FYI: Back when kwag was saying "look at me, look at me, I'm special" I was already making true DVDs.

Proove that it's not 100% DVD compliant. Because of the matrix in use?? You gotta be kidding! Name the place where you can see clearly written that you can't use your own!!!I'll visit you all in a couple of days,

Research starts at $50/hour depending on subject, plus costs. Where shall I send the invoice? At least 50-75% must be prepaid. All costs must be paid as they are debted. The DVD spec books are going to run a pretty penny.

I don't think you get it. You're the one trying to prove yourself.

[pacheco]

I don't know much about the social/culture of Portugal, but where I come from, I can call something "trash" and no further explanation is needed. (However, I often explain my position.) I think we may have simply hit a cultural barrier.

@lordsmurf,
I can now see the kind of trash you are!
Your comment to rds_correia suck!, just like you!!!!!
I know the kind of weasel you are now, specially after looking at your registration for your site:

digitalfaq.com
Registrant:
 TWS
 100 Under Construction
 Texas, TX 77777
 US
 888-888-8888


and then Registrant:
Domain Name: NOMORECOASTERS.COM
 TWS
 100 Under Construction
 Texas, TX 77777
 US
 888-888-8888

Anyone who registers a site like that, tells me a lot of the kind of person you are.
Are you hiding from something?


Hey vitualis,

you didn't say anything about kdvd!
Was that on purpose, because you admit that kdvd is 100% compatible with dvd players, and many people are aware of that, but it seems that if users here don't follow your trenches of regular methods, they are wrong?
I have read almost all your posts and replies to posts of users related to kvcd, and it seems that you are one of the biggets detractors.
Am I right?
Because the more and more I read on this site, the more I see that it's just a handfull of people that say negative things about kvcd and kwag. It's funny, because it's always the same people!
I think I can count about 10? that always and quickly respond to kvcd posts?
Funny though, that I see the kvcd site has now 4000+ users, and I see that they have about 10 new users every day. Just look at their members.
So does that mean that there are 4000 stupid people, because they like kvcd stuff?

I think it's the other way around, and there are 10 handfull of stupid people here that don't know any better, and think they are video experts.
Looking at the techniques on this site, there is really NO difference in encoding practices now and two years ago!, which really make this site a newbies place, because there are no technological break throughs!
The more I read, the more I understand what this place ireally is. A nice site for people to learn, and after they have more experience, just get the hell out of here and head over to kvcd or to doom9, for more advanced topics.
But maybe I'm wrong, and this place is really designed to keep people on a newbie level, and nothing else.


You know something? You don't behave well. I tried anything the nice way, you still express yourself in a bad way. This here represents your overall appearance in this community. So....
You are in breach of the forum rules and are being issued with a formal warning.
/ Moderator SatStorm

[jimmalenko]

Get with the program ppl


CD 700MB

OR

DVD 4.377GB


No-one, and I mean, no-one here can tell me that if the same movie (of at least 90 mins duration) were to be encoded to fit each of these media, the CD with a KVCD template and the DVD using any MPEG-2 template you like, that the CD is anywhere near the DVD in terms of picture quality. It is not even on the same continent as it !

I would like to see the "followers" of KVCD play their CD on a rear projection TV or using a projector. Even DVDShrink or DVD2One masterpieces can look blocky on those.

If KVCD quality is acceptable to you, then good on you. Continue using it to your heart's content. But accept that people may have a different opinion to you.

[adam]

You know, I think Kwag himself said it best when questioned why more people on this site didn't use his templates. (it was in regards to a poll.)

He said something to the effect of, "because they've all gone to kvcd.net." Makes sense to me. People seem to either love those templates or hate them, and stick to their guns. So there's no sense in coming to this site, criticizing it, and trying to convince people to use Kwag's templates, when there is an entire site dedicated to them. If people want to use them they will surely find their way to kvcd.net on their own and decide for themselves. If they seem lost, then just kindly point them in the right direction. In the meantime, if people want to warn others to avoid kvcds, or Nero, or Macs, or whatever else...get over it. Its their opinion.

Lordsmurf can call a kvcd crappy, and another user can praise kvcds as dvd quality to their eyes, and believe it or not neither is wrong. What is wrong, IMO, is when someone cares more about what formats other people are using than what they are using themselves.

[jimmalenko]

What is wrong, IMO, is when someone cares more about what formats other people are using than what they are using themselves.

That reminds me of people who wish to share their ideals with you by door-knocking


Each to their own.

[ZippyP.]

That reminds me of people who wish to share their ideals with you by door-knocking.

Kwags missionarys seldom take a polite "No, thank you" for an answer, and are always on the look-out for new converts. I suppose it's there earnestness and idealism which we find so gosh-darn amusing.

I find that this usually works, "I'm really busy right now, maybe we can have a nice chat about KVCD next time. No, thank you. I really don't have time to read any of your nice literature."

[lordsmurf]

Are you hiding from something?

Yes.
1. Spam
2. Telemarketers
3. Junk mail
4. Crazy people like you. I mean, seriously, WTF would you do if you had my address? Whatever you want, I'm not interested.

I don't see the problem with saying I don't know about Portugese attitudes, custom, culture, etc. Again, maybe that's how people are from that country... you're not supposed to disagree or something? Where I live, opinions are not repressed, which is what he seemingly tried to do. Why? I don't know. That was just my guess: cultural differences.

Go make a KVCD or something.
www.kvcd.net is where you should be, not here.

[jimmalenko]

That reminds me of people who wish to share their ideals with you by door-knocking.

Kwags missionarys seldom take a polite "No, thank you" for an answer, and are always on the look-out for new converts. I suppose it's there earnestness and idealism which we find so gosh-darn amusing.

I find that this usually works, "I'm really busy right now, maybe we can have a nice chat about KVCD next time. No, thank you. I really don't have time to read any of your nice literature."

[CaseyComb]

Yup... tried the script....followed the guides (i.e. Experimenting) conclusion:

KVCD still sucks. Really, people this crappy format is never going to catch on. Even if it can produce the quality output some claim it does (it really doesn't) it will just be the Betamax of the VCD world.

Let it go...DVD has arrived its here to stay. Just because you can make a KVCD only means you've wasted more time than necessary. The time spent creating a KVCD is takes infinitely more time than dragging your lazy butt off the couch to change the disc.

[Supreme2k]

And when you bunch of jerks can get HDTV quality on an 8-track like I do, then you'll have room to talk, and not any of this vaunted "dvd" nonsense. Even Blu-ray will not be able to match my S2KV8T (which is compliant even for VideoNow!).