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  1. Lordsmurf,
    Could you please advice on this.
    Is there any possible way to adjust input "black level" in DR-M10SL? Like, for example, in Panny there is an option called "Black Level Control" which allows manually adjust the "black level" of the input signal by selecting "Lighter", "Normal", or "Darker". Unfortunately I couldn't find this information in DR-M10 manual, and couldn't find this option by playing with setup/menu screens.

    Also I was wondering if this machine allows manually select VBR resolution "Auto" or "Fixed" like in Panny? I couldn't find this option either.

    Any thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated!
    Thanks in advance!
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  2. Originally Posted by kabanero
    But why would you want to capture your DVD (MPEG-2) to PC as AVI file. I don't see the use of this feature.
    Me neither. But the other way around is a nice feature! I was under the impression that most DVDRs (other than the Pioneer models w/firewire) don't have this capability. Is that correct?
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    Panasonic only has black level adjustments because the machine is flawed in design. Especially early ones.

    Most recorders/players do not have this, and it's really not needed.

    I have it on my Toshiba 2800 player, and that's it. I really don't use it too much. Lots of tv sets have this too these days.
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  4. OK. I got it.
    Thank you lordsmurf for your response!
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    Lordsmurf:

    Just wondered how you were getting along with the -RW format of the DR-M10SL?

    Found this post where you didn't seem to pleased with -RW
    https://www.videohelp.com/forum/archive/t216243.html

    It seems like you really like the DR-M10SL (hope I do too) has it been good enough to make you happy with -RW?

    Also, is there anywhere to get 4X -RW media or is this not made?

    Thanks.
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    As long as I fill up the disc, finalize time is maybe 2-3 minutes most. I can live with that.

    It when you use a pre-used disc, and only record like 30 minutes, where it gives a finalize times of 15 minutes that I get a bit annoyed.

    But quality is here, so I just grit teeth and live with it.

    I use RAM discs when it's a movie or something for single-use re-watch.
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    Hi, Lordsmurf:

    Did you ever open it up? I would like to know what kind of DVD drive it use and what kind of connector it has. Also is the fan stay on all the time even in clock mode? Thanks!
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    Exactly how does finalizing work?

    Do you only have to do this when you want to view your DVD on another player?

    If I just want to playback a program on the recorder do I have to finalize?

    What about if I just use a -RW to capture a VHS tape, do I have to finalize before I can copy those files to a PC hardrive for editing?

    Is finalizing quicker on a DVD Ram?

    If +RW is quicker at these things why do manufacturers like JVC use -RW?

    Sorry for so many ??'s the DR-M10SL will be my first recorder.
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  9. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by cchang
    Hi, Lordsmurf:

    Did you ever open it up? I would like to know what kind of DVD drive it use and what kind of connector it has. Also is the fan stay on all the time even in clock mode? Thanks!
    Yeah, I opened it. You can't see anything. Nothing at all. Not without tearing it apart.

    Fan turns on with unit. When you turn off unit, themostat keeps it on until it reaches acceptable cool level.

    Only have to finalize to leave the JVC. Can watch un-final on JVC just fine.

    Yep, must finalize else PC drive will not see disc.

    DVD-RAM has no finalize. It's VRO mode. Hell to get it off with my PC (one big file, no matter amount of clips, therefore I only use it for movies). Must rip it in UDF mode on ISO Buster with LG RROM (RAM-able) drive. Windows ME shows "CD" with no files in explorer.

    +RW Alliance and DVD Forum is why certain brands use certain types of media. Plus they know -RAM is best for editing/re-use, -R best for write-once. We're lucky they do -RW. I wish all had +RW too, but we take what we're dealt.

    This JVC is proudly linked with my JVC 9800 and TBC-1000 here. Works perfectly. My best DVD machine (to date).
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    Lordsmurf:

    The manual for the DR-M10SL doesn't give any resolution/bit rate charts for the various recording modes (XP,SP,LP,EP and FR) at least I can't find any.

    Have you experimented enough to know what the resolution and bitrate (Video Mode) are for each of these?

    How does bitrate and resolution get assigned in FR? If I understand this recording mode, you just set your time within 5 minutes and the JVC does the rest?

    Also, I'm reading you can assign one or more custom recording mode? Do you have complete control over bitrate and resolution on this?

    Thanks.
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  11. There is some kind of TBC inside the JVC DR-M10SL. A 6-hr EP recording taken from an old VHS EP tape had no visible staggering of lines (1D jitter), unlike a recording played back on the same VCR of the same tape onto the Liteon LV5001 recorder. Also unlike the Liteon, this JVC DVD-RAM test recording also had no lip sync problems even after 6 hours.. while the Liteon was off by 4 seconds and stuttering near the end.

    ..and there are definitely at least some quirks in the DR-M10SL. I have not been able to finilize a DVD-RW VR disc (TDK 2.4x brand). The finalization stages gets all the way to the end and pops up a dialog box "Could not Finalize the disc -- Check the disc." This was using a brand new, scratch and dust-free DVD-RW disc each time.

    Another quirk is that Dolby AC-3 2-channel streaming audio over SPDIF works inconsistently. I had to switch to PCM output to solve the problem. Strange thing was 2-channel AC-3 streaming was working the day before.

    The 480x480 LP (4 hr) mode in VR is visibly superior to the 352x480 LP mode (same 4 hrs) on a Video book type formatted DVD-RW, when you have a source like broadcast NTSC that has a picture that, in theory, needs at least 450x480 to capture all details.
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  12. I've been using DVD-RW (Sony & Fuji) with no problems. I just read a thread over at AVS about how TDK discs are almost exclusively (or will be soon, with the new contract they signed) made by CMC Magnetics, which is considered one of the worst brands out there. I've never tried them, though, so that's not me saying that. I'm using Fuji pretty much exclusively now with no problems whatsoever.
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    Be sure the TDK are TDK. Not CMC.

    The 480x480 is a flaw of the machine in VR mode. A DVD recorder should not make a non-DVD standard. Broadcast resolution is far inferior to 480x480. It's closer to 352x480, which is Half D1.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    The 480x480 is a flaw of the machine in VR mode. A DVD recorder should not make a non-DVD standard. Broadcast resolution is far inferior to 480x480. It's closer to 352x480, which is Half D1.
    Just curious, what would happen if someone was to author and burn a DVD using that or would that be possible at all?
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    It's possible, but not easy. Plus it's not a true DVD. Just MPEG authored and cross your fingers and hope it works.
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    My DR-M10SL arrived from Crutchfield this afternoon. The bottom of my unit doesn't seem to be completely flat as it rocks from front corner to the one diagonally across on the rear. Looks perfect though so it didn't happen in shipping.

    Watched a rental WS DVD of LOTR Return of the King, it looks very good on my HD Sony. Not sure its quite as good as the Denon 1600 it will have to replace, but I need to play with some DVD's I'm more familiar with to be sure. Layer change was a bit faster than the Denon however.

    DVD-Ram is very quick to delete recordings from, haven't tried any -RW but I'm guessing from what I'm reading it won't be nearly as quick.

    Very impressed with the quality of the 4hr mode.
    Did some tests off of satelite and the recording was very close to the original, the source was a Dish HD channel.
    Either the 4hr LP mode or FR mode at 3.5hrs is important to me since that will get a whole NFL game including overtime.

    When using a CDR both MP3's and JPEG's produce a nice menu to find your files by.

    How much ventilation do these units need??

    My setup is in a bookcase and I normally just open the door whenever I play a DVD and use my 5.1 receiver. The satelite receiver is on top of the bookcase so for normal programing I don't have to open the door.

    My HK receiver gets just a bit warm but not hot and I never shut the door until its been off awhile. I guess you would also want the door open anytime the JVC is recording. It barely got above room temp during my testing this evening but I didn't do any long recording.

    Thanks for any advice on cooling.
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  17. Thanks for the DVD-RW suggestions. The DR-M10S however did finalize a DVD Video book-type TDK disc just fine. It is just a problem with DVD-VR book-type so far...

    Cheap DVD-R discs ($0.34/ea from shop4tech) work just fine so far too.

    The JVC 9911 is amazing. This VCR nearly perfectly stabilized a year 1989 VHS EP speed tape that had played back on every S-VHS VCR I tried (ranging from year 1993 to 2000 top consumer models) which produced nearly unwatchable 1D (line) and 2D (picture) jitter. The difference was stunning.

    I agree that half-D1 can look pretty good, but most people tested by DirecTV and Echostar could tell the difference between 480x480 and 352x480. This is why, despite the incredible pressure to force the bitrate on DBS even lower, 480H remains the most popular resolution. Originally, Half-D1 was to be the standard for China's SVCD, but 480H was shown to be possible to fit on a CD, and won in the comparison tests.

    480x480 is part of the DVD-VR spec, but not DVD Video.

    352H implies a brick-wall limit of 264 lines (TVL/W computed as 352 * 3/4 aspect ratio), but even the best practical filters need some oversampling, say 20%. MPEG-2 is also a kind of filter, and it has a difficult time representing details close to nyquist, so that extra ~20% also helps push the finest detail closer to MPEG's natural operating sweet-spot.

    NTSC can also has a significant amount of energy between 3 and 4.2 MHz. (352H to 450H in Nyquist terms), especially on textured/patterned images or letters.

    SVCD2DVD will concatenate several SVCD streams onto a DVD Video file structure, and recode the audio to 48 KHz. I have had no problem playing such discs on an Apex 1500, Liteon 5001, and the DR-M10 for that matter. The Apex 1500 doesn't like anamorphic 16x9 SVCD however.

    I am very grateful for all your advise and suggestions over the past few weeks. I can now preserve (and restore) some important aging video tapes.
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    After some more recording from satellite, I can't tell the difference between XP and SP so I doubt I would use XP. LP isn't as good as SP but is close. EP is not good enough quality for me.

    For any who are interested, Recording Modes are as follows on the DR-M10SL. These are all with a Video Mode format -RW.

    XP - 720x480 8.82mbs CBR, AC3-384kbs

    SP - 720x480 8.76mbs VBR, AC3-256kbs

    LP - 352x480 4.14mbs VBR, AC3-256kbs

    EP - 352x240 2.58mbs VBR, AC3-256kbs

    Still want to try FR for 3.5hrs and see what that turns out to be.

    LordSmurf:

    Given that you reccomend 352x480 at around 4mbs VBR for the AIW for VHS captures, would you reccomend LP on this unit for VHS captures?
    Using LP I can probably fit two of my SP VHS home movies on a DVD.

    Looking at these specs is SP overkill for VHS captures?

    Thanks.
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    The bitrates you listed are max VBR. The actual avg is lower by a few. Yeah, I'd use SP and LP for movies.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    The bitrates you listed are max VBR. The actual avg is lower by a few. Yeah, I'd use SP and LP for movies.
    Lordsmurf: I got the bitrates by opening the VOB's in Womble, I knew they were the max VBR rates. Is there anywhere to get the Average and the Minimum?

    Did you see my previous comments above on cooling for the DR-M10SL, was curious to hear your comments. Do you think I'm alright with my location as long as the door is open anytime I'm recording?

    Can't get Satellite Auto recording to work, the R-LK indicator flashes when I try and set this so I guess my Dish 811 Sat Reciever isn't compatible?

    Also the manual talks about a Cable Box/DBS controller which looks like a InfraRed emitter module. It acts like this comes with the DR-M10SL, did you get one? I did not.

    Thanks.
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    Originally Posted by Offroad
    Can't get Satellite Auto recording to work, the R-LK indicator flashes when I try and set this so I guess my Dish 811 Sat Reciever isn't compatible?
    I get the same with my Dish 4900 when I try to set up Sat Auto Recording.

    Originally Posted by Offroad
    Also the manual talks about a Cable Box/DBS controller which looks like a InfraRed emitter module. It acts like this comes with the DR-M10SL, did you get one? I did not.
    I didn't get it either. But you can find two cards in the bag that your manual came in. One of those cards is the order card for that module.

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    Originally Posted by Offroad
    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    The bitrates you listed are max VBR. The actual avg is lower by a few. Yeah, I'd use SP and LP for movies.
    Lordsmurf: I got the bitrates by opening the VOB's in Womble, I knew they were the max VBR rates. Is there anywhere to get the Average and the Minimum?

    Did you see my previous comments above on cooling for the DR-M10SL, was curious to hear your comments. Do you think I'm alright with my location as long as the door is open anytime I'm recording?

    Can't get Satellite Auto recording to work, the R-LK indicator flashes when I try and set this so I guess my Dish 811 Sat Reciever isn't compatible?

    Also the manual talks about a Cable Box/DBS controller which looks like a InfraRed emitter module. It acts like this comes with the DR-M10SL, did you get one? I did not.

    Thanks.
    It's written somewhere. I know LP is right over 2.5 and SP is right over 5.5. You can also see it in BV (bitrate viewer).
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  23. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Panasonic only has black level adjustments because the machine is flawed in design. Especially early ones.

    Most recorders/players do not have this, and it's really not needed.

    I have it on my Toshiba 2800 player, and that's it. I really don't use it too much. Lots of tv sets have this too these days.
    Oh my my my !!!

    C'mon now LordSmurf I expect better from you!

    Surely you must know that NTSC is 7.5 IRE BLACK whereas PAL and Japanese NTSC (the only flavor of NTSC like this as far as I know) are 0.0 IRE BLACK.

    This is a VERY important issue when recording.

    I'm sure your ATI has a NTSC-M setting (for most NTSC) and a NTSC-MJ setting (for Japanese NTSC) as well as settings for PAL formats. I'm sure it does because all other types of PCI based capture cards do as does the Canopus ADVC-100

    Surely you wouldn't consider recording Japanese NTSC on the NTSC-M setting vs the NTSC-MJ setting.

    Do you think someone just made that stuff up out of the air?

    Of course not! It is because different video formats (or standards) need different settings.

    This is why the Panny stand alone DVD recorders feature a black level input adjustment. This is juat another way of saying "assume the source is 7.5 IRE BLACK" or "assume the source is 0.0 IRE BLACK"

    The first 3 generatoins of Panny stand alone DVD recorders did NOT have this adjustment and they are flawed. The new design which allows the user to make an adjustment is actually the way it SHOULD be.

    I'm shocked by you shrugging off this issue.

    I still love you though in that special fuzzy way

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    Originally Posted by kabanero
    I didn't get it either. But you can find two cards in the bag that your manual came in. One of those cards is the order card for that module.
    Thanks for the tip, I had not looked at anything but the manual.
    Do think this has any chance of fixing our problems?

    I really would have liked for Auto Satellite recording to work.

    Does anyone else have it working? If so on what make and model of Satellite receiver?

    Thanks.
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    Fulci, I'll clarify.

    Selling anything not made for USA in USA market is stupid. That is a flaw by Panasonic. It's as dumb as selling PAL VCRs in Walmart down the street. If you sell in USA, it should be USA-ready. I don't want a Japanese-ready item. I don't live in Japan.

    My point is the JVC does not need any of that. It is made for the USA and comes with proper specs. No need to adjust anything.

    Whether it be PAL, fps, IRE, resolution or non-spec recordings ... anything not made for general use in the country of use is a flaw (either by marketing or design).

    Since 480x480 is not a DVD standard, I still think VRO LP mode 480x480 is a flaw of the JVC. I don't care if that's a VRO spec or not. It's not an acceptable DVD mode and this is a "DVD recorder". Since DVD-RW as DVD-Video (as opposed to VRO) does not have that issue, I use it at proper 352x480 res.

    When you spend $250-800 on an item touted for "ease of use" and "VCR replacement" it should not need tweaking, merely open the box, plug it in and give you that "VCR replacement" and "ease of use". A person should not need to learn about IRE and PAL and fps and resolution to make a quick homemade DVD just like the VCR did.

    This may be narrow-minded to some, but it's quite logical and probably a very popular opinion to hold.
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  26. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Fulci, I'll clarify.

    Selling anything not made for USA in USA market is stupid. That is a flaw by Panasonic. It's as dumb as selling PAL VCRs in Walmart down the street. If you sell in USA, it should be USA-ready. I don't want a Japanese-ready item. I don't live in Japan.

    My point is the JVC does not need any of that. It is made for the USA and comes with proper specs. No need to adjust anything.

    Whether it be PAL, fps, IRE, resolution or non-spec recordings ... anything not made for general use in the country of use is a flaw (either by marketing or design).

    Since 480x480 is not a DVD standard, I still think VRO LP mode 480x480 is a flaw of the JVC. I don't care if that's a VRO spec or not. It's not an acceptable DVD mode and this is a "DVD recorder". Since DVD-RW as DVD-Video (as opposed to VRO) does not have that issue, I use it at proper 352x480 res.

    When you spend $250-800 on an item touted for "ease of use" and "VCR replacement" it should not need tweaking, merely open the box, plug it in and give you that "VCR replacement" and "ease of use". A person should not need to learn about IRE and PAL and fps and resolution to make a quick homemade DVD just like the VCR did.

    This may be narrow-minded to some, but it's quite logical and probably a very popular opinion to hold.
    I suppose I see your point but for someone (that's me) who is a huge video collector I have PAL VHS videos as well as Japanese VHS videos etc. and since just about any capture card made (for the most part) has an allowance for the differences between the formats then I still find it odd that some stand alone recorders are "fixed" one way or the other.

    Granted most USA model DVD recorders cannot record PAL at all but Japanese NTSC they can ... if they can adjust from 7.5 IRE BLACK input to 0.0 IRE BLACK input.

    So I do see your point to an extent but it is a feature I think should be included and I'm glad some companies (like Panasonic and Pioneer) do this.

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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Since DVD-RW as DVD-Video (as opposed to VRO) does not have that issue, I use it at proper 352x480 res.
    Can you explain what you mean by "use"? Are you saying you changed a setting? I don't see myself using 4hr mode very much but I may use it occassionally.
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  28. Note that also US DV camcorders are setup for 0 IRE (firewire output that is).

    However if you could setup your DVD recorder to 0 IRE don't know if you can adjust your television so you could get this full range.

    By the way I looked at the JVC and noticed it has not zoom control. No one annoyed by that? My cheapo JVC player can do that and it's a good way to check recording quality.
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  29. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Lucien
    Note that also US DV camcorders are setup for 0 IRE (firewire output that is).

    However if you could setup your DVD recorder to 0 IRE don't know if you can adjust your television so you could get this full range.
    BLACK LEVEL is either 7.5 IRE or 0.0 IRE and this really is not the same as the 16-235 vs 0-255 luminance range "thing" which I think is what you are thinking about.

    Originally Posted by Lucien
    By the way I looked at the JVC and noticed it has not zoom control. No one annoyed by that? My cheapo JVC player can do that and it's a good way to check recording quality.
    Who cares about ZOOM control? I hear people bitching about this all the time ... some have it and some don't etc. etc.

    I have it and never use it except when maybe watching a porno drunk off my ass for some "close up" amusement.

    I just don't see the big point in it.

    It's mostly a useless thing.

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  30. Originally Posted by FulciLives
    BLACK LEVEL is either 7.5 IRE or 0.0 IRE and this really is not the same as the 16-235 vs 0-255 luminance range "thing" which I think is what you are thinking about.
    Not really. Firewire has technically no IRE as it outputs at full 0-255 range. I assume JVC DV-in recording accounts for that and converts to +7.5 (staying true to original brightness and losing some of the dynamic range).
    Don't know about the Panasonic but normally black level adjustment is for output only (which isn't useful if you have a US TV only which is typically setup fixed for +7.5). Analog inputs are normally setup for and expected to be +7.5 in the US.

    Originally Posted by FulciLives
    Who cares about ZOOM control? I hear people bitching about this all the time ... some have it and some don't etc. etc.

    I have it and never use it except when maybe watching a porno drunk off my ass for some "close up" amusement.

    I just don't see the big point in it.

    It's mostly a useless thing.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    Well if you don't use it it's worthless to you. As I said it's to check recording quality (without a 50"+ TV). Especially for mosquito noise and block artifacts (sure I can use PC...). Also 1.2x zoom is useful for reducing letterbox at 4:3 tv (not that I use that really).
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