How to convert 4:3 NTSC to 16:9 also NTSC ? and vice-versa ?

[FulciLives]

@DJRumpy

Cutting 60 off of the top and bottom of a NTSC video (starting at Full D1 i.e., 720x480) and then stretching what is left (720x360) back to 720x480 IS the proper way to do a conversion from 4:3 WS to 16x9 WS i.e., 1.78:1

For instance a 4:3 WS video with a 2.35:1 aspect ratio usually requires about 104 be cut from the top and bottom (to completely remove all black) then you stretch what is left (720x272) to 720x360 and add 60 black to the top and bottom. This converts 2.35:1 4:3 WS to 2.35:1 16x9 WS

Some "similiar" values there BUT two totally different operations.

I think ... with all due respect ... that you got a bit confused in your last post

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[DJRumpy]

Your right. I of all people should know this. I'm thinking of a 16:9 source file, and not a 4:3 source file.

With a 16:9 source, a 360 vertical would be 1.85:1, and a 384 vertical would be 1.77.

Senior moment, or brain fart. You decide...

[Zetti]

Thanks DJ,

To be honest, when I first read the "crop" command in the suggested script, I suspected about that, but instead of asking and asking, I prefered to try first;

I am absolutely sure that the original video is 16:9 and has been improperly recorded in the stand-alone recorder as 4:3, as people faces are distorced;

So, at this point I think that the best is to do not use any crop command, but try to restore the video making it bigger in width than in height;

I'll have to travel again this weekend and won't have much time now, anyway, I'll try Fulci's suggested script wth no crop command and see how it goes, I'll return here then;

If it doesn't look good, I'll keep it the original distorted way indeed, I like to play and learn about video stuff

Thanks again,

Zetti

[FulciLives]

I am absolutely sure that the original video is 16:9 and has been improperly recorded in the stand-alone recorder as 4:3, as people faces are distorced

You mean it looks like everyone is too tall and thin?

That is what 16x9 video looks like when you have it played back on a 4:3 TV without resizing it properly which the DVD player will do unless it is 16x9 video flagged on the DVD as 4:3 ... then the DVD player doesn't know to resize it.

Anyways if this is the case then it is VERY easy to fix ... it is 16x9 ... just process it as such restoring the 16x9 flag so it plays back normal.

For instance load the video into VirtualDub and resize from the original 704x480 to 704x360 ... this should restore the aspect ratio.

Let us know

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

*** EDIT ***
Maybe you can post a screen grab of this video ... as in raw video no aspect ratio manipulations etc.

[DJRumpy]

The plot thickens...

I agree, however, if your source is MPEG and already DVD compliant (not sure at this point what your working with), then you may not even have to re-encode.

You can run PULLDOWN.EXE on the file. Select the 'nopulldown' option to prevent it from changing the playback framerate, but DO select the option to flag the MPEG as 16:9. I would suggest you get the gui for PULLDOWN.EXE , called PullDownBatchFE.exe, so you don't have to do the DOS thing. It will have a checkbox for both the 'nopulldown' option, and the 'Aspect Ratio' (DAR) flag. Both should be checked using the options button (assuming this is even the case with your source file that is).

This all depends on what resolution and format your source file is, and whether or not it has letterboxing (yours doesn't if I rememeber correctly). Assuming your source is 16:9 (1.77) video, it would appear to be fullscreen on a 4:3 television if the MPEG aspect ratio was improperly flagged as 4:3. The player wouldn't know to letterbox it. If this is the case, a simple run through PULLDOWN to change the DAR on the MPEG will fix this without re-encoding.

Can you give us a quick rundown of what resolution, format, and framerate your source file is?

[Zetti]

You mean it looks like everyone is too tall and thin?

E-X-A-C-T-L-Y !!!!!!

DJ, I have pulldown and will try it;

EDIT : I got the GUI, I found the nopulldown at the options window, but can't find the DAR 16:9 option....

Thanks again a lot to you both, I am in a hurry now (have to travel again) and won't work on it now, early next week I'll return to it and tell you both;

Thanks again for very valuable help and, more important, friendship

Zetti

[DJRumpy]

It should look like this:

The drop frame checkbox is optional.

The DAR I was talking about is labled 'Aspect Ratio' on the GUI. Just set it to 16:9 and make sure a check is there (see the example above).

[Zetti]

Hi DJ and Fulci,

I hope you're fine ! I am back from another quick trip;

DJ, sorry, I had v1.0; not the new beta one, so I hadn't that option, will try now;

Fulci, I'll try uploading the other file to you tonight;

Thanks again a lot

Zetti

[Zetti]

Hi again boys

@DJ : Got it !! Got it !!!! Got it !!!!
The v1.1 of pulldown did it, it's now playing restored again to nice 16:9 aspect, according to the original, thank you !!!

@ Fulci : thanks also my friend, I'll keep your "real" script for when I need to convert a "real" 4:3 video;

Well, I think it's OK now !

Thanks boys !

Zetti

[FulciLives]

Hi again boys

@DJ : Got it !! Got it !!!! Got it !!!!
The v1.1 of pulldown did it, it's now playing restored again to nice 16:9 aspect, according to the original, thank you !!!

@ Fulci : thanks also my friend, I'll keep your "real" script for when I need to convert a "real" 4:3 video;

Well, I think it's OK now !

Thanks boys !

Zetti

Glad you got it to work and remember the script I gave you will convert NTSC 4:3 WS to NTSC 16x9 WS but it will cut off 60 pixels from the top and bottom so the 4:3 WS original must have an aspect ratio of 1.78:1 or more. Granted there aren't too many 4:3 WS DVD discs but there are a few out there.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[DJRumpy]

I'm glad to hear it went well!

Fulci, there are far too many improperly labeled "Widescreen" dvd's if you ask me. I've got quite a few early DVD's in my collection that are letterboxed 4:3. They look like they were encoded by a newbie too. I'm tempted to redo some of them, but I don't watch them all that often.

What's funny, is you would never know it until you got a widescreen TV. Then the problem is obvious.

[FulciLives]

I'm glad to hear it went well!

Fulci, there are far too many improperly labeled "Widescreen" dvd's if you ask me. I've got quite a few early DVD's in my collection that are letterboxed 4:3. They look like they were encoded by a newbie too. I'm tempted to redo some of them, but I don't watch them all that often.

What's funny, is you would never know it until you got a widescreen TV. Then the problem is obvious.

I know a lot of people complain about John Carpenter's remake of THE THING as it is 2.35:1 but in 4:3

I don't know if it is 4:3 or 16x9 (I only have a 4:3 TV) but EXCALIBUR out on Warner Bros DVD looks like utter shit. Now it is a very long movie but I checked it once with DVD Decrypter and it is a dual layer disc ... I remember that ... but this has to be one of the worst MPEG-2 encodings I've seen from a major studio.

One thing I've always been curious about is how they do 1.66:1 enhanced for 16x9 TV's

I have one such disc and watched it on my computer monitor to see what it looked like (sans overscan) and there was a lot ... I mean a lot ... of black on the sides BUT on my TV you can't see it because of TV overscan but it (the black) must just barely be off the visable part of the TV screen.

I guess they "shrink" the image to fit from top to bottom the 16x9 ratio but since 16x9 is really 1.78:1 that leaves the extra bit of black on the sides since 1.66:1 is not as wide as 1.78:1

I wish I could figure out how to calculate for that though as I'm not sure. I have a LD that I captured and encoded to MPEG-2 DVD but the ratio was less than 1.78:1 so I left it 4:3 would be interesting to re-do it at 16x9

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[DJRumpy]

I would assume that since using a 16:9 DAR for it would give you a vertical of 512, that you could probably resort to using a 4:3 DAR ( I know..I know.. I too own a copy of The Thing, and hate what they did, but it's physically impossible to make 1.66 it fit into a 16:9 aspect properly without either filling the horizontal with letterboxing too, or using a 4:3 DAR ).

Assuming your encoding for 4:3, you just do the math.

480 * 1.33 = 640 (rounded)

640 / 1.66 = 384 (rounded to nearest 8)

Fill the remainder with letterboxing:
480 - 384 = 96
96 / 2 = 48 top and 48 bottom

This should look 'right' for a DVD player set to output to a 4:3 television.

If you want to cheat, and place it into a 16:9 aspect ratio, then you would just have to figure out the proper 'width' of your MPEG.

I've never done this for a 1.66 aspect (who uses a 1.66 aspect anyway? ), but in theory it should work. Since our MPEG can only go as large as 480 pixels high, and we know our video's aspect ratio (1.66), then you would simply multiply your vertical, times the aspect to get the video's playback width for a 16:9 display:

480 x 1.66 = 768

We then subtract this width from a standard 16:9 (1.77 decimal) display width of 850 (480 x 1.77=850):

850 - 768 = 82 (rounded to nearest 4 = 84)

84 / 2 = 42 left, and 42 right.

I think at this point, you should be able to letterbox the sides using 42 pixels on the left, and 42 pixels on the right.

[Zetti]

Hi DJ and Fulci,

How are you both ?

Well, I am afraid the problem hasn't been solved yet as I imagined , let me explain :

Watching the ORIGINAL DVD towards its end, I've realized that at some point of it, it turns from wrong 4:3 to correct 16:9, my guess is that the person that recorded (probably from Live broadcast) realized at some point that the DVD Recorder was set to wrongly 4:3 and hurried to set it on the fly to correct 16:9 - to match the broadcast standard;
So, in the middle of the film it changes from wrong 4:3 to correct 16:9;

I used Womble to CUT the MPEG2 file into two pieces, first wrong 4:3 and second correct 16:9.
Then, I runned the first piece through pulldown just to set it to 16:9 - as suggested by DJ, OK.
Now I have 3 files :

- Part1.m2v (wrong aspect)
- Part1_pd.m2v (correct aspect)
- Part 2.m2v (correct aspect)

So, it seemed easy : to merge part1_pd and part2 !!
.......**BUT**......Restream indicated that part1_pd is corrected flaged as 16:9, but part2, although it plays properly as 16:9, is indicated by Restream as being 4:3

Results : when I merge both, the new big file plays properly until the point of merging (it means part1 is OK !), but then, at the second part that corresponds to "part2", it gets "widescreened" again (2X widescreen !!) - on this part, everybody looks fat and small

I tried using Restream to flag "part2_pd" to 16:9, but had no improvement at all;

The point I am at now :

-Part1_pd and part2 plays perfectly (16:9) as individual files,

- Part1_pd is flaged as 16:9 - OK;
- Part2 is flaged as 4:3 - wrong, but it plays nice !

HOW CAN I MERGE THEM ??

I have Womble, TMPGEnc, and DVD Maestro (it has merging capabilities);

Thanks and sorry for bothering again and again

Zetti

[FulciLives]

Sorry but I haven't a clue on this ...

Hopefully DJRumpy has some ideas.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
What I don't understand is if both of the 2 separate files are really 16x9 recordings and are flagged as 16x9 ... well why they don't merge properly I don't know!

[Zetti]

What I don't understand is if both of the 2 separate files are really 16x9 recordings and are flagged as 16x9 ... well why they don't merge properly I don't know!

Actually, the second file is flaged as 4:3, although IN FACT it is 16:9 - hence it plays properly when alone;

I used Restream to flag it as 16:9 - same problem when merging

Thanks John !

Zetti

[DJRumpy]

I would guess that the split is in the wrong place, or the original had a 4:3 aspect flag on the entire mpeg. Since you've been cutting and splicing all of these mpeg's, try running the files through VCDGear (make sure you turn off splitting in the OPTIONS). Just set it for "MPEG to MPEG" and make sure you have the 'Fix MPEG errors' option turned on. It can correct any bad headers in the mpeg, often fixing wonky stuff like this in a few minutes. You may need to re-run your MPEG back through PULLDOWN again after running it through VCDGear, to reset the DAR (aspect) flag on the MPEG. Also, be sure that if you do run your MPEG back through PULLDOWN, that you use the 'NoPulldown' option, to prevent it from modifying the existing pulldown flags.

I would also use PULLDOWN instead of ReStream to change the aspect flag on your MPEG's. Just use the 'NoPulldown' checkbox in the GUI to tell pulldown.exe to not modify the pulldown flags.

[Zetti]

.....or the original had a 4:3 aspect flag on the entire mpeg. ...

Yes, that's it;

So, I fixed the first part flaging it to 16:9 using pulldown - it's OK !

But the second part is still flaged as 4:3; but it plays properly as 16:9 - HERE LIES THE PROBLEM

If I flag it to 16:9, it gets re-widescreened - people gets fat and small

I am sure I have to rework only on the second part, the problem is that it plays properly as 16:9 but it's flaged as 4:3

I'll try your tips later tonight,

Thanks DJ, as always

Zetti

[magnoliafan]

Hello FulciLives,
Mr. Coleman, thank you for giving the best, most informative information on converting 4:3 letterboxed to 16:69 anamorphic. I was looking for information like this for over a year with no luck until I stumbled on this thread. It's been truly helpful and educational. You should write this up in a guide. I'll help if I can be of assistance!

Like you did with BLADE RUNNER, I have been trying to convert over some capture 4:3 letterboxed laser disc content to be 16x9. You said your results were very good. I would call mine pretty decent, but I think it could be better.

In the past, I tried doing this all within VirtualDub, without using AVISynth or anything else. I cut 60 lines of letterboxing from the top and bottom, then resized it to 720x480. The resulting file was 16x9, but it looked terrible - blowing it up that much added lots of artifacts, jagged edges on objects, loss of sharpness, etc.

Now, I have a question. I ran through the process you explained (using AVISynth), and the results are much better than I got with VDub alone. However, I still noticed a little artifacting and jagged edges.

So, how does one correct that? Will using Convolution3D help the quality of the resized file?

Here is the content of my current AVISynth script:

LoadPlugin("D:\51test\mpeg2dec3\mpeg2dec3.dll")
mpeg2source("D:\51test\redo\test.d2v")
crop(0,60,-0,-60)
jdl_UnfoldFieldsVertical(flip=true)
LanczosResize(720,480)
jdl_FoldFieldsVertical(flip=true)


I am going to try adding Convolution3D to the mix and see what I get.

Do you know of any other tricks that might help improve the quality?

Thanks in advance!

[FulciLives]

@magnoliafan

Not much you can do ... this will result in some loss of resolution or sharpness.

However doing it like this is usually better than letting your TV resize 4:3 WS to 16x9 WS ... at least with most video equipment.

You have to remember that video tends to look not as good on a computer screen than on a TV so you might be surprised how good it does look on a TV once you are done.

Convolution3D is a good idea always with captures ... even a light setting on DVD rips can be helpful.

You might want to try another resize method like BiLinear for instance. That actually looses detail but smooths the picture out somewhat.

Of course using Convolution3D will also smooth the picture out a bit.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman