Lordsmurf, why ATI All in Wonder?

[indolikaa]

fmctm1sw,


With the same capture device, you've tried three different VCRs and get the same similar distortion on the exact same 'frame' of the recording?

I don't see how this could be anything BUT a tape problem. Embedded noise, or possibly a physical imperfection on the tape itself that each of the three VCRs handles a little bit differently. I say that because you can readily see the difference in overall picture quality between the three VCRs.

The term slips my memory, but this looks like the video version of what happens when you take an analog input signal into a DAT/MiniDisc/CD recorder and cross the 0dB limit. The distortion creates a signal so unstable the card cannot 'capture' it and replaces that part of the signal with a null value...

[dphirschler]

I have actually tried three different VCRs. But it doesn't matter. And the garbage is on different frames each time. And the shape of the garbage is random each time too. It's on LD captures, VHS captures, tuner captures. It does not show up if I watch it in overlay mode, only when capturing. It shows up on different tapes and LDs. It's not the source.

An example of how I can manually get a clean capture is this. I capture the same source twice. Then I view the first capture frame by frame and write down the frames with junk in them. Then I wrote an AVIsynth script to swap that frame with the exact same frame in the second capture. This is a major pain in the ass as it is a lot of tiring manual work. Not to mention that I might miss a bad frame, or random junk might show up in the same frame on both captures by coincidence. I should not have to do this. It should capture cleanly.

Could be the chipset (VIA). I have installed new drivers and still get the problem. I suppose I could try a different PCI slot. I also have an ATI Video Wonder VE that I could try out. I may also try some different (faster) RAM. Of course I will try all that before going out and buying a new ATI All in Wonder card.

Apparently, my problem is rare. But I have seen one other person with this problem on this forum.


Darryl

[FOO]

You don't suppose you have an external noise source
doing this ? Power line noise , or something

Looks to me like Hsync is confused here and there

[lordsmurf]

You don't suppose you have an external noise source
doing this ? Power line noise , or something

Looks to me like Hsync is confused here and there

Would you agree that this could be from either drivers and/or the capture chips involved?

[FOO]

If its the capture chip , why does it work 99% of the time ?
It's not doing anything else.
If it's drivers , same thing , unless something is getting in its' way.
My observation of drivers is that , they know when they get overruns
and do drastic things instead of moving a couple of lines over.

Guessing is useless . I have to have it here with a scope and logic
analyzer.

[dphirschler]

You don't suppose you have an external noise source
doing this ? Power line noise , or something

Looks to me like Hsync is confused here and there

Would you agree that this could be from either drivers and/or the capture chips involved?

I think it's some sort of hardware/driver conflict. My first instinct was that something was not able to keep up. I sped up everything I could by doing the following:

16 bit color more for capture
reduced capture size to 480x480
used Picvideo's MJPEG codec to reduce the data size

That eliminated it for 480x480 captures. The CPU is only working at like 16% even with video preview turned on. Then I decided to try to speed up the harddrives. I moved the capture harddrive to the second IDE card (my mobo has two IDEs). So I set it up like so:

IDE-1
primary IDE master: boot hd with OS
secondary IDE master: CD writer

IDE-2
primary IDE master: capture hd

After that change, I was able to capture 16 bit color at 640x480, 704x480, and 720x480 (with the ocassional junk).

Moving to 24 bit color I get:

720x480 - lots of junk
704x480 - junk
640x480 - occasional junk
480x480 - even less occaional junk

I don't know how interference noise could affect this, but I suppose anything is possible. This kind of thing is not what I am used to. I didn't buy junk brands. My mobo is Asus; my capture card is Pinnacle.

At this point, I want to clear out all the capture driver info, remove it from my system, and try the original driver, maybe even try the card in a different PCI slot. Then try the same with the ATI TV Wonder VE next. Lastly, I will test out my dad's AIW card. That's a huge hassle because he is currently using it and we don't see each other every day.


Darryl

[The_Doman]

It's just a hardware combination issue. The pinnacle PCTV card can perfectly capture in HIGH-res with the right drivers and capture software. I have used it for years before I switched to using my DV-D8 camera for that.
Ofcourse you should try it in another PCI slot to see if that helps.
And you mentioned you are using the VIA chipset, some combinations of hardware just won't work correctly with it.

[dphirschler]

Figures... just my luck. Well, I will try to test out some things tonight and report back tomorrow.


Darryl

[vhelp]

Have you tried capturing w/out codecs ??

Example, have you captured uncompressed, since this requires no extra cpu
pull ??
-vhelp

[fmctm1sw]

Thanks for the comments guys. Most of my intent was to add some levity to a thread I thought might be headed for disaster. I was kind of expecting someone to say "Ok, that DOES suck. " I would have gotten a laugh. Do I see them on my TV? Great point. I'm so used to sitting behind my computer and converting VHS tapes that I don't even watch them anymore. Maybe I'll watch the movie.... :duh:

[dphirschler]

Have you tried capturing w/out codecs ??

Example, have you captured uncompressed, since this requires no extra cpu
pull ??
-vhelp

It's even worse without codecs. For instance, the garbage gets worse the larger the data packets are. There is no way on this earth that I could capture uncompressed. No way at all. Even Huffy leaves a mess. Picvideo MJPEG makes the smallest compressed files and thus has less garbage.

I did two tests last night. First I moved the capture card to the PCI slot right next to the video card. No change. Still got garbage. Then I swapped the RAM out for two 256 meg sticks. No change, still got garbage.

Last night I noticed that I hear the harddrive writing at the same moment I see the garbage appear in the frame. So It's gotta be related to the harddrive. But how can I speed it up more? They are both 7200 rpm drives. I have DMA turned on. The capture drive is on its own IDE. It's defragged. Is there some BIOS setting I need to do?

Should I be able to capture uncompressed at 720x480? Is everybody else able to do that?


Darryl

[thecoalman]

Last night I noticed that I hear the harddrive writing at the same moment I see the garbage appear in the frame. So It's gotta be related to the harddrive.

Why don't you run task manager while your capturing, ctrl>alt>delete... Switch the tab to processes, it will tell you what's using the cpu when it writes to the drive. Unfortunatley XP is loaded with a lot of executables running in the background. Many of them uneeded....Do you really need windows automatic update constantly running?

If you haven't already I would disable any anti-virus, and firewalls you have running. Disable indexing of drives, windows automatice update, messenger(not to be confused with windows instant messenger), and anything else you can find that you don't need when capturing. I'd also check out the startup folder (go to the run command anf type msconfig, then select the startup tab) for additional crap starting up.


If you want to find out what they do a good place to start is here: http://www.blackviper.com/

[LSchafroth]

Go to this site to make sure you only have the minimum programs running.

http://www.pacs-portal.co.uk/startup_content.php

I never builda computer without cleaning up the startup in the registry and startup folder.

Then go here to remove unecessary services.

http://lists.gpick.com/pages/Windows_Services.htm

Lannie

[dphirschler]

Those links were helpful. I managed to improve it, but not completely eliminate the problem. Now I am thinking it may be the harddrive again.

Here's a question for you. Although the problem has been here for quite some time, I just recently installed WinXP. I converted the main harddrive over to NTFS as well. However, the second harddrive is still FAT32. Will there be a speed advantage to converting that drive over to NTFS as well?


Darryl

[LSchafroth]

I believe in using NTFS on all drives if you are using only XP. You get better security and stability.

I always disable the 8.3 naming support and performance counters and etc on the NTFS to help increase it's performance since I will never use those two options.

I wouldn't think FAT32 would be causing problems, but it wouldn't hurt to convert it anyway.

LS

[thecoalman]

How about some more ram, if your comp details are right 256 isn't much.... My comp eats up nearly that much on startup befor I even do anything and that's with all unneeded items removed from the startup and a few items disabled in the services config... The only apps that start up are abti-virus and my firewall. Regardless you can always use more ram, can't hurt.

Some of these software makers ought to be shot, 211mb download for my scanner...lol, no option for just the drivers for either the download or the install. What a joke.

edit: Another thought is have you tried updating your MB bios, I had some errors in my event log and some other small system issues that went away after updating. Be careful though if you do, i'd research it thoroughly. You mess that up and your done

[lordsmurf]

Yeah, 256 on XP won't cut it. At least 512 minimum, if not a full 1GB.

[dphirschler]

I will be adding an additional 128 mb tonight. I plan to get it up to 512 ASAP. I just flashed a new bios Saturday. I need to spend a little time tweaking the settings I think.


Darryl

[LSchafroth]

Yeah, 256 on XP won't cut it. At least 512 minimum, if not a full 1GB.

I use 256Mb right now with XP Pro. The only thing running is McAfee, Netop & Hardware monitoring in teh systray.

I can do all my captures, encodes and burning with little or no swapping. I can burn a DVD, browse the net, play online videos and such.

I do want to try 512Mb.

LS

[sphillips2001]

I'd like to take Lord Smurf's advice about the Radeon AIW card. I have a Radeon ATI 9700 Pro and love it. BUT, I notice that the AIW card comes with Pinnacle Systems Studio 9 and I know that's nothing but major trouble!!! Are you going to get the AIW and throw away the Studio 9?

As an aside, I need a new capture care, having just returned the Pinnacle Systems Studio DV. I have a Pinnacle Systems DV500Plus but never installed it. Is this a suitable capture card or is it too old? With all this in mind, still recommend the AIW 9800?