create menu from existing VOBs

[zwalex]

I have a similar issue as this one (discussed on 2/16 this year on this forum between DVmadman and galactica) :
I have a bunch of VOB files from different DVDs (all non-commercial stuff), that I want to put together with a nice menu and scene selection.
I want every single VOB to be one chapter, I want all the chapters to play through one after the other, but I also want to have a menu, where I can select chapters (VOBs) explicitely.
I read a lot on this forum yesterday, downloaded and played around with lot of stuff, but did not find a satisfying solution.

Sizzle 0.1 generates one chapter per VOB, that's great, but it does not create a DVD menu (can only use DVDs remote to jump between chapters w/o any visual aid...)
Sizzle 0.5 generates a menu, but it generates one TITLE per VOB (not one chapter per VOB), which causes it to jump back to the title menu after each section.
Toast 6 Titanium pretty much does the same as Sizzle 0.5 w/o the possibility to influence menu background and 'buttons' - there is a menu of all title/chapters/VOBs, but it jumps back to this menu after each section (doesn't play through). [besides that Toast demuxes/remuxes the VOB's, which is bad in terms of time it takes to generate the image and it also doesn't mux video and audio together in synch ...]

Well, guess my question is: is there a solution, that allows me to create menus for my VOBs as chapters that allows me to select them explicitely, but also plays the chapters subsequently w/o jumping back to the menu?
And I do not want to de-/remux my VOBs (don't see any need for that).

Thanks in advance and Cheers,
zwalex

[pixeljammedia]

Well, guess my question is: is there a solution, that allows me to create menus for my VOBs as chapters that allows me to select them explicitely, but also plays the chapters subsequently w/o jumping back to the menu?

DVD Studio Pro can do that, but it is pretty pricey.

And I do not want to de-/remux my VOBs (don't see any need for that).

You would have to demux to elementary streams to do this, but DVDSP will re-multiplex for you once you build the image. I see no reason not to demux / remux since it causes no loss in quality and doesn't take much time.



(edited for typos)

[zwalex]

Thanks for your reply Pix' - I only got time at the weekend to look into that again.
Decided, that I'm not ready to spend the $500 or so for DVDSP [yet], but rather go a cheaper route.
I figured, that Sizzle would do exactly what I want if I would have just one VOB, so I searched this web site and googled a bit for a VOB merger.
Seems there is none [at least cheap-/free-ware] for OS X (same obviously true for DVD menu editors, see below), but I found this freeware VOBMerge for Wintel (very small), that I downloaded and ran on my VPC. Finally I got my VOBs in one big one (2.5G) and dropped that into Sizzle 0.5, set some chapter markers and saved the image. Took a while and here are some things, that I don't understand:

Why does Sizzle have to re-encode the VOB (that's what it's obviously doing and what's taking so long)? I understand, that it 'only' has to build the menu VOBs VIDEO_TS.VOB and VTS_01_0.VOB plus the corresponding .IFO and .BUP files - is that correct? If yes, why does it even have to touch 'my' VOB (meaning the one, that holds the movies)?

Even more painful - after mounting the image and testing it with DVD Player [great, it works!], I wanted to have the text of a chapter button changed. Did that in Sizzle, saved the image again and it obviously re-encodes the whole movie VOB (which takes a while, as it's 2.5G, as I said).

Can I just edit the menu VOB file (VTS_01_0.VOB) and how would I do that w/o screwing everything up?

Is there an easy and cheap way to edit just the menu, after my DVD image is fully authored?

Thanks in advance and Cheers,
alex

[pixeljammedia]

Thanks for your reply Pix' - I only got time at the weekend to look into that again.
Decided, that I'm not ready to spend the $500 or so for DVDSP [yet], but rather go a cheaper route.
I figured, that Sizzle would do exactly what I want if I would have just one VOB, so I searched this web site and googled a bit for a VOB merger.
Seems there is none [at least cheap-/free-ware] for OS X (same obviously true for DVD menu editors, see below), but I found this freeware VOBMerge for Wintel (very small), that I downloaded and ran on my VPC.

Actually a VOB is just an MPEG. Any tool you can use to join MPEGs like MPEGTXWRAP, FFMPEG X, MPEG2Works etc. will join together your vob. But if you have a working process then more power to you.

Finally I got my VOBs in one big one (2.5G) and dropped that into Sizzle 0.5, set some chapter markers and saved the image. Took a while and here are some things, that I don't understand:

Why does Sizzle have to re-encode the VOB (that's what it's obviously doing and what's taking so long)? I understand, that it 'only' has to build the menu VOBs VIDEO_TS.VOB and VTS_01_0.VOB plus the corresponding .IFO and .BUP files - is that correct? If yes, why does it even have to touch 'my' VOB (meaning the one, that holds the movies)?

It's not re-encoding. There may be something going on with your chapter markers (if it isn't at an i-frame it makes it difficult to jump to that specific picture) Do you have enough disc space? Sizzle is VERY fast on my system but if you don't have space for it to work as it wrotes your disc image, it might take a while.

Even more painful - after mounting the image and testing it with DVD Player [great, it works!], I wanted to have the text of a chapter button changed. Did that in Sizzle, saved the image again and it obviously re-encodes the whole movie VOB (which takes a while, as it's 2.5G, as I said).

Can I just edit the menu VOB file (VTS_01_0.VOB) and how would I do that w/o screwing everything up?

Is there an easy and cheap way to edit just the menu, after my DVD image is fully authored?

Thanks in advance and Cheers,
alex

You have to get it right before you build. I have no clue what is taking your system so long, but sizzle does not even have an encoder in it. It cannot be re-encoding your VOB. It just authors a DVD given the assets you provide it.

[zwalex]

Thx Pix'
I have a PowerMac G4 dual 1.25GHz witha 80 Gig disk.
Have to do some housekeeping on my disk, but when I started Sizzle with the 2.5G VOB I had approx. 8G free - what are the recommendations for Sizzle's worksize?

Authoring might also be slow, as Sizzle breaks up my 2.5G VOB into 3 chunks -2 being 1G and the third the rest.
If I would take these 3 chunks (VTS_01_1.VOB, VTS_01_2.VOB, VTS_01_3.VOB) and feed only the first one into Sizzle again, would it detect the other two as parts of the whole thing?

Thanks in advance and Cheers,
alex

[FCPguy]

Ram maybe?

[zwalex]

I have 1.25GB RAM. One can never enough, but I think that should allow a decent speed - I am satisfied with other stuff that I'm running like Adobe AE, Maya and such apps that are also very resource hungry.

It bothers me, that it takes that long. It shouldn't take a lot longer than it takes to copy the 2.5G of data and do some authoring for the menu, right?
My VOB file is actually 2.36G and the whole .dmg file is only 2.33G - seems to me that Sizzle is doing something with that VOB - interesting, that the disk image is smaller than the VOB - any explanations?

Anyhow - "have to get it right in the first place"[the menu, that is] - hm, even bothers me more, so I am still looking for some after-authoring-menu-tweak. I wouldn't even mind to get down and dirty with hex-editing the IFO file(s), if somebody could hint me in the right direction.
I would still prefer a - preferably free - tool, though - even if it's only available on Wintel.

Thanks in advance and Cheers,
alex

[Manny C]

Have you considered using Diva to convert your VOBs back to DV files? You could then compile/arrange the DV files in iMovie or Final Cut, and create a new DVD from scratch (with your own chapter markers where ever you want them).

Of course, this wouldn't be the most efficient way of getting what you want, but the advantage would be complete control over the end result.

[zwalex]

Ok, let me pace back here a little bit - probably 're-encoding' was the wrong term, so I re-phrase my first question from today:

Why does Sizzle have to remultiplex the whole VOB file (and it definitely does that, as I can see in OS X's Activity Monitor/Open Files) it obviously runs a (very sloooowww...) mux'er process called 'mplex'.
Again: WHY??!! is that necessary, if I just add a menu and do not change the VOB at all. The menu should only contain references to the VOB's timecode's, right - so why is there a need to re-multiplex everything?
Am I missing something here?

Thanks in advance and Cheers,
zwalex

[zwalex]

Manny C,
actually I have considered an approach like that, but bumped into a whole bunch of restrictions of iMovie, etc.
First of all, I was looking for a process, that can generate .dv from vob. I wasn't aware, that Diva can do that. It renders mpeg-4 and when I import that into iMovie, it takes a long time for iMovie to convert, so it does not seem to be a native format for iMovie. The next thing is the 9 1/2 minutes length description (because of the 2GB clip size) of iMovie. My VOBs are all way longer than 9 minutes, so I would have to have another process (and what could that be?) splitting my vob-to-mpeg-4 into 9 minute chunks. And finally I run into the 60 or 90 or whatever-in-any-case-shorter-than-what-I-have restriction of iMovie (my total movie is about 2 1/2 hours). Besides that I waste and need gigantic amounts of disk space because of iMovie's dv format.
So yes - have considered that, but as long as I do not see the need to edit my VOBs (in terms of cutting, etc.) this seems to much of a hassle to me, just to add some chapter markers and a menu ...
Still can't believe, that there is no easier way to add/edit a menu w/o shelling out $500 ...

Could you please elaborate on the Diva vob-to-dv-for-iMovie idea?

Thanks in advance and Cheers,
zwalex

[zwalex]

Because of "everything is relative" - somebody saying it's real fast could be the same as somebody else saying it's real slow - all a matter of perception.
Anyhow, if I say, it takes awfull long to add a menu to a pre-existing vob with Sizzle, that would be ~45 minutes for my 2.5G.
I would say it should not take longer than 15 - 20 max.
Cheers,
alex

[pixeljammedia]

See if you can borrow someone's Firewire drive and see if you can save the image there. 8GB (gee, how times have changed) out of an 80 GB disc isn't leaving too much room for Sizzle to work. Theoretically it should be enough, but I find that reading muxing and writing the video works much better when given more space (over 10 gigs) I have a slower processor, but a typical 4 GB build with menus takes about 10-15 min.

[zwalex]

Pix',
Thanks for your reply and your number for a 4GB authoring.
I'll try to get rid of some stuff on my HD that should be backed up since a long time anyhow.
How much free space do you have to have the 4GB build done in 10-15min? And how big and strong is your machine in terms of RAM and processor speed?
Anyhow, I still do not really understand, why Sizzle has to demux/mux the VOB file in the first place...(??).
Thanks in advance and Cheers,
zwalex

[pixeljammedia]

Hover your pixel over my computer details button to see my system specs. I always have about 40 GB free on my authoring drive, but that's surely overkill. As you can probably tell, I am a glutton for drive space, but some of my FCP projects can take up a lot of room. Wedding video clients, corporate video, my dvdrips, it all fills up in a hurry. I am a big advocate of inexpensive Firewire enclosures and large IDE drives. They can be had for VERY cheap nowadays. I tend to check over on DealMac.com or techbargains.com whenever I want to find the cheapest.

As for demux/remux, it has to do with the DVD structure. vobs are a set size (1 GB) according to the DVD spec. Each vob in the video_ts is being split into the proper size for the udf file structure and the appropriate ifo and bup files are constructed. I just let it chug away and I go watch TV or surf with it in the background. No muss/no fuss.

[Manny C]

Sorry, maybe Diva was not a good recomendation for your situation. I was forgetting that when I use Diva to get convert a VOB to a DV file, I'm doing so in instances where I only need the video, and not the audio. It seems that Diva only extracts the video and you would need something else to then get the audio, then put them back together (now we're getting into methods that can begin to look like too much of a pain in the ass than it's worth).

What I should have recomended was DVDxDV ($25). But then again, you are using iMovie and have to deal with the file size limits for imported DV files. If you were using Final Cut Express, then that wouldn't be an issue.

Other than what has already been mentioned here, I don't know what other software exists that can help you. Maybe you could do a search on LimeWire for any freeware that you could use to achieve your desired result. Just DO NOT use LimeWire to obtain any software other than freeware, because that would be wrong and it is heavily frowned upon around here.

[zwalex]

Thanks Pix' and Manny C for all your feedback and hints and tips.
I really like this forum and the dynamics here.
Guess I will have a look into DVDxDV and I've also almost decided to go out and get FCE...
Thanks again and when I pop up here the next time, it's probably with either a DVDxDV, Final Cut or iDVD question.
Cheers,
zwalex

[live4ever]

The slowness might have something to do with adding the chapters in Sizzle. Whenever I use it I create new titles for each movie (never use chapters at all), and 4gig builds take 15min on a 1.25ghz Powerbook.