Canopus ADVC vs. Matrox RT.X100

[c0r3file]

Greets all,

Decision: I need to be able to a) capture both analog and DV, b) edit via Premiere, and c) output to SHVS OR DVD. I have the hardware, but my capturing is being done via an old Pinnacle DC1000 card.

I'd like to upgrade to either a Canopus ADVC external box or an internal Matrox RT.X100. The Canopus is $300, comes with no extra software, and I can only hope that it can 'push' an analog signal back to a SVHS for recording tape from a rendered Premiere project. The Matrox is $1000, comes with Premiere Pro, After Effects, Encore, and Audition software. Plus this card does onboard MPEG2 encoding, something that I'd have to do with 3rd party utilities with the Canopus (I think).

DVDs are the bulk of my media output, so MPEG2 is something I have to be able to do. I also have to maintain the ability to convert ANY media type (Digital8, Hi8, DVD, SVHS, DV) TO any media type. For instance, taking clips from Hi8, DVD, Quicktime, and AVI into Premiere and rendering out both an SVHS and DVD from the same project. (I know, ouch... it's for work).



Any suggestions? Thanks! =)

c0r3file

[lordsmurf]

You're comparing consumer card (Canopus ADVC) to a pro card (Matrox RTX.100) .... no contest. No brainer.

[c0r3file]

Yah ok. I saw tons of positive reviews on the Canopus unit, and thought maybe folks would claim the Matrox was overkill...

thanks...

c0r3file

[Stonechatz]

The Canopus ADVC seems to be ahead in the fact that it can tie the audio to the video - no desync - over extended pieces of video. Other cards (and expensive too!) have been known after large file sizes - to lose their way in marrying the sound to the action - and the Canopus is inexpensive for the sophistication it exhibits in keeping video and audio in parallel with each other. Which is why I am considering a purchase - notwithstanding the fact that each hour of video is going to be 13Gb in size - and needs to be compressed (probably overnight) into MP1 or MP2. I recommend on the favourable suppression of desync alone!

[mracer]

Couple of points

1. The Canopus ADVC-100 is a professional tool.

Smurf is known here for talking bad about the ADVC 100. He does not know of what he speaks and he's jealous because he does not own one himself. He's spent years trying to get good results from ATI's consumer video cards and it shows.

2. The ADVC-100 can flawlessly ouput your finished Premeire projects to any analog tape format that can accept composite or s-video and rca audio.

3. The ADVC-100 will also output your timeline to a video monitor as you edit in Premiere, which is a pretty cool feature. You already own the software (premiere) to take advantage of the ADVC-100.

But, having said all of that, The problem is your need for MPEG2. If you need it quickly, you should go ahead with a hardware encoder like the Matrox, or a perhaps combination of the Canopus ADVC-100 and the Canopus MPEGPRO MVR. The MPEGPRO MVR is a realtime MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 encoder on a PCI card for $549. It will capture analog video straight to MPEG2 at very high quality as well as hardware accelerate rendering of DV material to MPEG2.

[racerxnet]

If your willing to spend $1000.00 on a Matrox, why not spend a $1000.00 on the Canopus DV REX PRO or the DV Storm with the Edius 2.0 and ProCoder? Once I went to the Rex Pro from the ATI junk, I never looked back. Quality has been superb.

MAK

[disturbed1]

Apples and oranges.

The ADVC100 is just an anolouge to DV convertor.

The Matrox RT.X100 is a full blown editing board with serious RT 3D effects.

The Matrox boards have better 3d effects compared to an equally priced Canopus card. But Canopus has other options, that Matrox doesn't.

Check out both Canopus and Matrox user boards for the pros and cons of both boards.

At Matrox, a few users discuss both Canopus and Matrox products, at Canopus, you'll mostly only hear about Canopus products

[rhegedus]

So just because the Matrox costs $1000, it's suddenly a 'Pro' unit. All that Adobe software was completely free................

As I don't see any need to capture to mpeg direct, I'd get the Canopus and spend the $700+ difference on some good software like Vegas and a fast CPU.

[lordsmurf]

Couple of points

1. The Canopus ADVC-100 is a professional tool.

Bullshit. Call CANOPUS and tell them this, see what they say. The RTX100 is matched with the pro DVSTORM system. Not a flimsy 4:1:1 DV converter.

I'm being torn between the two of them right now. I need to make up my mind what I want, then find the money too. Disturbed1, you'll be glad to know I'm leaning more towards Canopus this moment, though I'm not sure yet. Dollar$ will also be a big factor here. Realtime MPEG2 capture, realtime MPEG2 conversion, and the realtime effects (with smoothness on odd angles especially), are all important factors to consider.

[rhegedus]

Depends what it's 'professional' at..............

[lordsmurf]

Marketing at its best.

[rhegedus]

Marketing at its best.

Call CANOPUS and tell them this, see what they say.

[vhelp]

Evening all..

@ lordsmurf :P

Don't trust me but do trust yourself. Once you to advc-100, you'll not want
to look back - sheesh.., you'll say to yourself (or something else )

But still, if you do go the advc route (just get the 100) you'll love it.. and every
thing else you've said about the ATI will of sounded like bull-shat all
along hehe hehe.. nah, just kdiding, to each his/her own. But, you'll no doubt
be giving it a good (or great) review, and you'll no doubt be adding it to your
web site of endeavors, etc etc. ... we've all ben their. Swallow your pride and
just enjoy the damn thing - - it's perfecto, period !!

cheers,
-vhelp

[lordsmurf]

The day I take out my ATI card is the day I upgrade. That excludes the ADVC line. Upgrade is one of those NLE cards like DVSTORM or MATROX

[vhelp]

TGIF guys :P

I seem to buy all kinds of cards to no avail. And, just because I have the advc
does not mean that I stop. I love this little device. It's the final frontier for most
peoples, but I like experiement and grow w/ new devices and things. Anyways..

As much as I love my advc-100, I continue onward w/ my Analog line of
cards, because they allow for greater flexibility (ie, color space and codec,
for instance)
.
Where I'm getting w/ this ?? ... well, because some time in the future, I hope
to get a card that will capture in 4:2:2 (or better, 4:4:4) and have even greater
control over color space encoding etc. But, the downside to all this is that
all the sources we all capture are outputing 4:2:0 color space
So, that presents a problem. But, we can still take advantage of capturing
w/ a sample of 4:2:2 (equals greater color pallette choices for encoder, and
that much more quality in our final encoded MPEG-2 clip)
.
Now, I don't know weather this RTX100 is better in this area, but I haven't
seen any cards that offers true 4:2:2 (let alone, 4:4:4) color space
or sample results in the .AVI captured file. Still..

-vhelp

[racerxnet]

To Vhelp,

Look at the specs for the DVRex professional on the 4-2-2 color space. Also on the Amber MPEG card.

MAK

[vhelp]

.
.
just curious.. was there a link ?
-vhelp

[pijetro]

If customer support is important to you, than i'd recommend the Matrox..

[lordsmurf]

If customer support is important to you, than i'd recommend the Matrox..

This is a consideration for me. I know MATROX forums can be helpful (have a friend using a Matrox RTMAC and that's been a valuable asset to him).

[racerxnet]

To Vhelp,

Here is the link to the Canopus web site for the DVRex. You can access all the specs at thier site.
http://www.canopus.us/us/products/dvrex-rt_professional/pt_dvrex-rt_professional.asp

Adobe Premiere Pro plug-in released
Canopus has made available an Adobe Premiere Pro plug-in, which provides compatibility with Canopus products. This plug-in can be obtained from the Drivers section of this website. Incomparable real-time DV and analog input/output
Offering the type of performance that you expect from your editing system, DVRex RT Professional gives you the capability to capture video through on-board IEEE 1394 (i.LINK), Y/C, and composite connectors and output real-time to DV or analog from the timeline. Output to MPEG-1, MPEG-2 and streaming video files... and with native DV audio input/output, the audio clock is genlocked to video reference supplying perfect sound and video synchronization.

More CPU Power equals more real-time capabilities
Designed to offer editing system performance scalability, DVRex RT Professional upgrades automatically to enhance future DVRex technology.

Advanced DV and Analog Input/Output
Capture DV in your camera, then digitally transfer footage via the IEEE 1394 (i.LINK) interface and through s-video, composite or component connectors in the footages native format. Output real-time to DV or analog tape from the timeline, and deliver video on tape, CD, DVD or over the Internet.

For capture and output, DVRex RT Professional provides deck and camera control of DV and DVCAM devices through the IEEE 1394 interface. DVRex RT Professional also supports deck and camera control of analog devices through RS-422.

Typically only available with high-end analog audio equipment, the DVRex RT Professional offers balanced XLR audio connectors in addition to unbalanced RCA jacks. Balanced audio cables and connectors help prevent the introduction of noise, especially useful in a studio environment.

Finishing in Real-Time
DVRex RT Professional incorporates Sony's DVBK-1 hardware DV CODEC on-board for digitizing analog video into the standard DV format and outputs to DV timeline in real-time. MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 encoding is done by the Panasonic hardware MPEG CODEC, for high-quality conversion in near real-time from the RexEdit/Premiere timeline.

The decision is yours, edit with Adobe Premiere or RexEdit 2.91, both provides an impressive assortment of productivity tools. Choose from a whole host of real-time filters, transitions, multiple audio, video and title tracks, plus real-time audio filtering, by taking advantage of the powerful DVRexRT Professional's hardware from within Canopus' real-time plug-in for Adobe Premiere. All features can be applied to each layer independently, played back and reviewed instantly in real-time.

Using both the Adobe Premiere titler and Boris GraffitiTM, multiple titles can be also created in real-time with individual title motions and attributes. Both RexEdit and Adobe Premiere, using the Canopus real-time plug-in, process in YUV 4:2:2 maintaining high image quality when keying and creating titles. Use DVDit! SE© for DVD authoring. And finally, employing Sonic Foundry's® ACIDTM Style gives you capability to easily produce one-of-a-kind musical masterpieces.

Professional Breakout Box
DVRexRT Professional's 19" rack mountable breakout box comes complete with headphone output, audio level meters, and analog audio input gain controls making it easy to add to a studio rack.


> Dual PCI bus board design
> Component video input/output
> Real-time DV and analog input/output
> Real-time capture through DV IEEE1394 interface
> Real-time capture through analog (Y/C, composite, and component) input
> Frame accurate DV & RS-422 analog deck control for capture and output
> Real-time video tracks, Real-time moving titles
> Real-time transitions and filters
> Color correction, Picture-in-picture, Luma-key, Chroma-key
> Chrominance filter, Emboss and many others
> Real-time audio filters, Graphic equalizer, Parametric equalizer
> Delay, High and low-pass filter, Tone controller
> Output to DV AVI, MPEG1, MPEG2 and streaming video (WMV) files
> Hardware MPEG encoder
> 19" Professional breakout box
> Component, S-Video, and Composite video connections
> Balanced and unbalanced audio connections
> DV (IEEE-1394) input/output
> Analog level meters and input gain control
> Complete content creation software bundle
> DVDit! SE© DVD authoring software

[lordsmurf]

As I read it, the REX still captures 4:1:1 but processes 4:2:2 (which is pointless at that point, as the data was already lost). Correct me if I missed something, but I re-read it twice.

[disturbed1]

Isn't all DV 4:1:1?

That's my bigest pet peeve with any DV convertor, in NTSC land, we loose so much information when going from anolouge to DV.

[lordsmurf]

Isn't all DV 4:1:1?

That's my bigest pet peeve with any DV convertor, in NTSC land, we loose so much information when going from anolouge to DV.

Me too.

As I hear it, some high end cards can use an amalgam of DV (or something else) to create true 4:2:2, but is it really still DV at that point? I'm guessing no.

Now then, does the DVSTORM2 or the RTX100 use 4:1:1 or 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 ? Whatever I get MUST use 4:2:0 or 4:2:2. I refuse to accept a severe drop to 4:1:1 ... kills the point of "saving" analog formats when you harm them in the process. May as well stick to SVHS.

I'm dumbfounded by the way people deify the ADVC as if it were a video god. It's useless to me. Loose image quality while I convert? Sure, sounds great! Where do I sign up? The only thing it has in it's favor is it's a stable DV converter (if DV is your thing) and good A/V sync for those that cannot get their poorly-made PC to properly cooperate. Beyond that, it's not much more useful than your $50 Avermedia cards. It also does NOT replace a TBC, another false rumor that flies around.

[Bodysurf]

Isn't all DV 4:1:1?

That's my bigest pet peeve with any DV convertor, in NTSC land, we loose so much information when going from anolouge to DV.

Someone, preferrably Canopus, needs to come up with an affordable DV50 converter with a Firewire 800 port on it.

It would capture in D-9 or DVCPRO50 with a 4:2:2 image.

I think that would answer a lot of the complaints people (like LordSmurf) have with the current DV25 converters, such as the ADVC*, DAC-100, DVMC-DA2.

[disturbed1]

In PAL, you don't have as bad of a loss when using a DV convertor.

I believe the ADVC100 (and others) use 4.2.0 for PAL conversions, it's just 4.1.1 for us in NTSC land.

I too can't believe the praise these devices recieve for anolouge conversions. I spent 2 days with a Canopus Let's Edit RT+ system. Works fantastic, everything about it is great, except the conversion quality of Anoulouge sources to DV format. If I capture straight DV from a DV Camera, then it's beyond gold.

I knew there was a reason I still have a computer with Windows 98 and a Pinnacle DC30 pro

Both the Raptor and Storm2 claim 4.2.2 processing and editing, but it doesn't state what capture format they use.

[raindance]

but I haven't seen any cards that offers true 4:2:2 (let alone, 4:4:4) color space or sample results in the .AVI captured file. Still..

-vhelp

Hi, someone correct me if i'm wrong....i'm still quite new at this.... but what about tv tuner cards (like compro or pinnacle pctv) that allows capture with huffyuv codec? isn't the codec a lossless compression (so it should be 4:4:4?)

previously i owned a compro videomate gold tv tuner card, and i had been using it for capturing... recently i just bought the advc 50, and did some comparisons... i find that for the compro, colour seems to be better, and it has sharper edges.... but i think the card does some noise filtering, as i'm losing detail.... i get more detail on the advc, but colours are not as vibrant as the compro and edges not as sharp...

so is the colour and edges better on the compro because its capturing in 4:4:4?

[vhelp]

In PAL, you don't have as bad of a loss when using a DV convertor.

I believe the ADVC100 (and others) use 4.2.0 for PAL conversions, it's just 4.1.1 for us in NTSC land.

I too can't believe the praise these devices recieve for anolouge conversions. I spent 2 days with a Canopus Let's Edit RT+ system. Works fantastic, everything about it is great, except the conversion quality of Anoulouge sources to DV format. If I capture straight DV from a DV Camera, then it's beyond gold.

I knew there was a reason I still have a computer with Windows 98 and a Pinnacle DC30 pro

Both the Raptor and Storm2 claim 4.2.2 processing and editing, but it doesn't state what capture format they use.

I feel you their too :P
And, I think it's because, when you shoot footage (live, through your lens)
you are getting (imo) as close/true a 4:4:4 source, and the DV is converting
THAT source, NOT a source that is ALREADY a 4:2:0 and then converting
it to DV's 4:1:1 now
.
so, yes, I agree w/ you too on this because I have a DV cam too (TRV22)
and its pretty good quality.
.
But, I wonder what the actual sampling is, when a given cam (say my TRV22)
is in cam mode, and I have it connected via the S-Video wire, for an Ananlog
capture, and say, uncompresse or RGB24 capture project hmm..
is it: --> 4:2:0, 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 - - during live footaging, ..I don't know

[vhelp]

Just some info on the Sampling that I was talking about:


** 4:2:2 sampling is used in ITU-R BT601, D-1, D-5, Ampex DCT,
Digital Betacam, Digital-S, and DVCPRO50 formats.



** 4:1:1 sampling is used in 525/59.94 ("NTSC") DV and DVCAM,
and in both 525/59.94 and 625/50 ("PAL") DVCPRO.



** Co-sited 4:2:0 sampling is used in 625/50 ("PAL") DV and
DVCAM formats. Cr and Cb samples are on alternate lines in each field (a
frame view would show two lines of YCr,Y pairs, then two lines of YCb,Y pairs).
Note that this is different from the 4:2:0 chroma sample positioning in JPEG,
MPEG, and H.261 formats!


Here is the website of the info (you see above) for more info:
* --> http://www.adamwilt.com/pix-sampling.html

-vhelp

[ajc53]

I'm dumbfounded by the way people deify the ADVC as if it were a video god. It's useless to me. Loose image quality while I convert?

I was under the impression you never tried the ADVC?

It also does NOT replace a TBC, another false rumor that flies around.

It did for me.

I am sure a good TBC will improve any capture/transfer. For VHS tapes, it is a MUST using with my ATI. Not necessary using my ADVC -100.

[AuditSup]

Couple of points
But, having said all of that, The problem is your need for MPEG2. If you need it quickly, you should go ahead with a hardware encoder like the Matrox, or a perhaps combination of the Canopus ADVC-100 and the Canopus MPEGPRO MVR. The MPEGPRO MVR is a realtime MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 encoder on a PCI card for $549. It will capture analog video straight to MPEG2 at very high quality as well as hardware accelerate rendering of DV material to MPEG2.

It is my understanding, which could be wrong, that the MPEGPRO is capable of both capturing and encoding, why purchase the ADVC? It is also my understanding that the ADVC is capable of both capturing and encoding, so again why purchase the MPEGPRO?

I am interested in capturing VHS tapes and Hi8 & DV camcorder recordings to DVD without any editing. I want to make an exact copy. Later I will be interested in editing some of the converted videos and adding menus. (As a side note, what would you recommend as a good editor/menu generator for a novice? I have Pinnacle Studio and find it easy to use, but what I have read about reliability doesn't thrill me.)

Thanks for your assistance.