Microsoft Posts Critical Patches

[gitreel]

hey sefy, ever heard of any problems with xp's update rollup several moons ago? I do not install it, because it causes on of my self-built pcs to lock up constantly?

[SatStorm]

Adam, do you remember a simply time we two totaly agree on something ?

I'm not a M$ hater at all. But I dislike what the M$ company became over the years. There is a difference here.

And about the variations, I agree: I also have a PC, with a duron, a via chipset, a soundblaster audio card, and an ati card. And it is stable as a rock! (runs w2k through). But each time I tried to change something on that PC and re-install windows, countless issues appeared! So, I have it as "is" for as long I can use it (currently, I use it only for capture and mame games)

IMHO, the problem is that M$ always test first to specific OEM PCs from well known USA manufactures, release an OS and then try to fix the problems that might appear with Service Packs. Because of the position it has, can lead the market to "safe" choices (translated to "buy from our friends" - Intel for example...) and "bad" choices (translated to "don't buy what we don't have a deal with" - hidden partness, etc)

So IMHO, the problem is half M$, half the cheap, non USA "approved", hardware.

Linux is really strong in Europe for a reason you know.

[BSR]

For those with VIA chipsets. A buddy of mine uses them and writes software.
His website might be of interest to you for some downloadable fixes and such of common issues.
http://www.georgebreese.com/net/software/

Never used any myself, so no bashing.
Use at your own risk.

If it helps you, good for you. If not, ohh well.
DVD-R does not suck!:P

Will this topic ever end.

[gitreel]

Never, as long as there is a linux user in the world. Just wait til XP Reloaded comes out, then it will start over again.

[petar]

Sefy, yes, the EU commission last month "punished" Microsoft on monopoly charges. They have to pay a decent amount of €million (can't remember the figure) and they have 90 days to remove IE from their OS. They still have to appeal and we'll see what happens. But Microsoft is a North American company. I wonder if they'd do the same to an EU company. It's all about interests .

[gitreel]

hate to disagree with you petar, but that case was about windows media player, not internet exploder.

[petar]

Uh, yes, you're right.

not internet exploder

That wasn't a typo, or it was?

[gitreel]

No it wasn't a typo. I was trying to be funny.

[Sefy]

So far the only ones getting punished are users 8)
Ever since they integrated their stuff into the OS they just made it less and less secure, which is why they will NEVER get out of the problems!

[indolikaa]

Sefy!

I am disappointed in you! You're suggesting Microsoft was secure to begin with.

[petar]

No it wasn't a typo. I was trying to be funny.

It was funny. Wasn't sure because the R and the D are close to each other. It would have been funnier if you had told me it was a typo .

[Sefy]

@indolikaa, now that you bring that up, you think Bill Gates would trust all his millions behind a Microsoft Though Security OS ?

[triphop]

User/video machine

I currently use XP and it was only after lots of research that I moved from 2000. The main reason for this was that I have to be sure that my video work can continue without all kinds of bullshit that leaves me scratching my head in complete befuddlement. Here is my strategy:

1. 2 partitions on my primary disk - 10GB for the OS and most programs (the important ones), the rest is data storage, etc.
2. Get my system up and installed and working with all the baseline apps.
3. Backup the partition to the data drive (slightly compressed).
4. Add more stuff, backup, add / backup, etc...

This technique *really* allows me to roll back to known good state - I have no trust in the "system checkpointing" built into XP.

I also find that with video work I have to be very carefull about DirectX. The transition to DirectX 8 from 7 was very painful - lots of stuff broke. The transition to 9 from 8 was painless.

Server machine
I run a Mandrake linux 9.2 machine on somewhat old hardware (Athlon 800MHz) to handle mail, web, and filesharing for the other machines in the local network. Samba rulez. This is the hub machine and provides all kinds of nice printserving and aggregation for me and my family.

I would love to get rid of XP but the reality is that the software that I need just does not exist on this platform. Maybe sometime in the future but now, I can't get around it.

Linux is not immune from the upgrade problems that I experience on Windows but at least I can understand all the problems and can address them. For me Windows is quite puzzling and very byzantine in its working... Maybe I should become a MSCE. Maybe not.

regards,
Trip.

PS. Just got back from a killer Urlaub (vacation) in Germany - wow - I have 2.5 60min DV tapes to edit into a home video. And lots of pictures too - fun, fun, fun.[/b]

[indolikaa]

@indolikaa, now that you bring that up, you think Bill Gates would trust all his millions behind a Microsoft Though Security OS ?

Of course not!

He only makes money on Microsoft Windows. But he has a dark secret; he's programs in Linux, too. And secrets like that cannot see the light of day, lest the Imperial Network crumble around him.

[JohnnyCNote]

@JohnnyCNote: Patriotis; 'H apla amerikanos pou 3erei Ellinika; Sto forum exei arketous Ellines 3ereis, apla den fenontai!

I learned Greek while stationed on Crete in the USAF....

[indolikaa]

@JohnnyCNote: Patriotis; 'H apla amerikanos pou 3erei Ellinika; Sto forum exei arketous Ellines 3ereis, apla den fenontai!

I learned Greek while stationed on Crete in the USAF....

Care to translate for the rest of us?

[JohnnyCNote]

I know this may not mean much to members outside of the US, but my feelings about Microsoft are much the same as my feelings towards WalMart: I'm not a big fan of either.

In the case of MS, I have yet to have any of the big problems others have described. I've used their products on a wide variety of PC's and have always had at least acceptable results. I can appreciate objections to MS's potentially monopolistic practices, but they're not the only ones to blame.

Apple could have been more of a competitor had they licensed their products to other manufacturers instead of keeping them all to themselves and charging too much for them. I'd have gladly looked at a Macintosh computer years ago but they were so expensive that they simply weren't an option. The other problem is that I like to build my own PC's, which is simply not possible with Apple. If something else comes along that can offer the funtionality of Windows, I'd give it a try.

In the case of WalMart, I shop there only because they have the lowest prices on certain items that I need and I'm not bothered by reps trying to sell me extended warranties, etc. Given a choice, however, I try to shop at Costco as much as possible. I'm not sure if there's anything comparable outside of the US and maybe Canada, however....

[Capmaster]

@JohnnyCNote: Patriotis; 'H apla amerikanos pou 3erei Ellinika; Sto forum exei arketous Ellines 3ereis, apla den fenontai!

I learned Greek while stationed on Crete in the USAF....

Care to translate for the rest of us?

It all looks Greek to me.

[indolikaa]

Amerikanos seems pretty obvious (Americans)
Ellines/Ellinika looks to be Hellas (Greece/Greek)

And that's about the best I could even try to do!

[SatStorm]

I already translated what I ask!
Anyway, here is a word by word translation
Patriotis; 'H apla amerikanos pou 3erei Ellinika;
From Homeland? Or an American who knows Greeks?

Sto forum exei arketous Ellines 3ereis, apla den fenontai!
At the forum, there are many Greeks you know, but they don't show themselfs!

Happy now?

Anyway, since you all love so much to learn about Hellas, here is the most oxymoron story of the Greek history the last 183 years!

http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/articledesc.asp?cid=302508

This story is totally unknown to my generation (I'm only 30 years old), and it was a great suprise to discover that!!! I mean, I know the songs that they mention there, also I use to receive MTV India when it was a FTA satellite channel, and I have to admit that myself felt the bollywood music very close to some traditional sounds we have here!
If you think about it, maybe we are the only country in the world, which in a 40 years period we became "West Europeans" from "Indians"!!!.

[vitualis]

Windows XP is actually very good.

You have to remember to whom it is targeted... It is the NT kernel (as Sefy rightly stated, essentially Win2K which is a very good OS) dressed up so that it is easily usable for your average computer illiterate Mum and Dad.

On this account, it is actually quite good (comparatively) and very successful (let's be honest, Windows XP rules the home PC scene and there are no alternatives except for Mac OS).

Is WinXP insecure? Of course it is, by design. It is still pretty much built with the mentality of "single user who can do everything with one account" idea. This does make it easy for PC newbies though. It also doesn't help now that WinXP is on every second computer that has a net access...

As for software compatibility, I think people are often quite harsh on Microsoft and there are many double standards. I for one had no problems installing Office 97 on WinXP when it first came out. It should be noted that WinXP still runs my software from DOS 3.1 days natively. WinXP on the whole does pretty well with software compatibility considering there is a significant shift in platform from Win9x --> WinNT. The same cannot quite be said for the Mac scene. Sure, you can run things in emulation but it isn't the same.

Can you imagine the uproar if MS declared that you will need all new software with the upgrade in OS?

With hardware compatibility, WinXP does pretty well too. The only other OS that might have better overall compatibility is Win98SE. Although we all gripe about things not working with WinXP, getting random bits of hardware working is much more of an issue in both Mac OS and Linux.

For example... simple thought process: unless it is a Mac specific peripheral, I don't EVER have to think when I buy a piece of hardware whether it will be "compatible" with WinXP. It will be as a matter of course. If I was buying that same equipment for Linux or Mac OS(especially something that is less common), I would have to read the fine print on the box.

Regards.

[jtommyj]

Uhh, I feel a little underwhelmed here because I don't have an advanced degree in computer science and the like. So if you don't mind reading an opinion from just an average Joe my feelings on the subject are as follows:


It could be that everyone is just so busy complaining about MS or trying to hack it that they don't have time to work on another OS.

I don't know. The MS guys didn't sit around on a forum and complain, they went out to the garage and worked on making something better. Then they went and sold their idea to a large company (IBM) and licensed it to them.

If everyone who has stated that they don't like MS in the thread is as respected by their company as they say, get up to speed on Linux and sell it to your superiors if you can make the argument that Linux is better than MS. I don't care. Or better yet, go work for MS and HELP to improve upon what is already there or develop your own OS like the MS guys did.


I think sometimes we lose perspective that these guys risked a lot of money and their futures on a gamble. For every Paul Allen and Bill Gates, their is a drunk laying in a ditch somewhere in the world broken because they were less fortunate for their inventions. I think we see the wealth and trappings now but forget they used to sleep in cars. And, honestly, would anyone here give it back if it were them ?

But does anyone here think we could all communicate and disagree now and be on the net without MS ? It may have problems but let's face it people, until someone comes up with something better it's all we got. I don't love them and I don't hate them, but, unlike some here, I do appreciate the fact that I couldn't do a lot of what I love to do without them and for that I'll take the occasional reformat and re-install.

[indolikaa]

I already translated what I ask!
Anyway, here is a word by word translation
Patriotis; 'H apla amerikanos pou 3erei Ellinika;
From Homeland? Or an American who knows Greeks?

Sto forum exei arketous Ellines 3ereis, apla den fenontai!
At the forum, there are many Greeks you know, but they don't show themselfs!

Hey! I got two words right!

[lordsmurf]

@ lordsmurf: This is not Greeks, it is "Greeklish". Greeks typed with latin characters. A need for us like PAL60 for European VCRs for example. You need a special translator for this, as we need special drivers to grabb PAL60. And it wasn't something bad: I said" Hi brother, are you Greek or just an American who knows Greeks? There are many Greeks in the forum, but they don't show easy"

Yeah, I had no idea what you said.
Just a bunch of letters to me. No offense was intended.

[Sefy]

@jtommyj, you made just one fatal error in that last post of yours, and that is trying to give Microsoft the credit of the Internet! which is totaly false!, There was Internet way before Microsoft, and for those who had Linux or OS/2 they had it as an "Out Of The Box" solution with everything ready! and that was even before Windows95 came out.

There are two things which are better, unfortunatly, one is made by a dumb company who doesn't know how to marget their OS (namely IBM) and other is made by great programmers who seem to think that if they can run it then everyone else can, so they made it completly unfriendly (Linux!) to the basic home user.

Microsoft has NOT invented a SINGLE application in their life, they either copy or rip off from another company, or buying the other company. They use not just dirty illegal menuovers, but Bully Tactics, as in the case of IE and the IM and now Media Player. What they can't win in a fair competition, they just shove it into the OS itself.

[stiltman]

Microsoft has NOT invented a SINGLE application in their life, they either copy or rip off from another company, or buying the other company. They use not just dirty illegal menuovers, but Bully Tactics, as in the case of IE and the IM and now Media Player. What they can't win in a fair competition, they just shove it into the OS itself.

Sefy, get over it!

We know you hate MS, but have to support it....

Look at it this way, if they didn't have flaws, you wouldn't have a job!
Sure we all know by now how they've taken over the world just like OPEC, but we all have to live with certain things.....Mine is having to change diapers at 3am.....yours is having to bitch about MS...Sure you're tied to MS by the balls....me I have a choice. I can switch OS's at any time. Every App I use now has a similar app in Linux.....I'm truely sorry your company has such protietary apps that will only run under Windows...Maybe you should draw up a biz plan to correct this. Many corp apps now a days run via HTTP interfaces. Maybe you can get your company to switch to a more generic interface....

BTW, you never mentioned what apps you are forced to run under windows?

[Sefy]

@stiltman, I have nothing to "get over" with, and thankfuly i've quit that company a long time ago. They made their own software and only made it for Windows. Even their web products, they made only compatible to IE and always the latest.

Israel is a scrwed up that way, but thankfully the govenment here has now stopped using M$ products and switches to Linux and OpenOffice. however, the rest of the companies here, it will take them time.

As for me, i'm a PC Technician, I'm not bind to microsoft, unless people call me to fix their OS's after a nice update

For my "bond" with them, most software I use such as DVD Authoring, and covering the programs in my guide, lets say the "alternatives" are either full of crap or unavailable in Linux in a user friendly way.

[petar]

Microsoft has NOT invented a SINGLE application in their life, they either copy or rip off from another company, or buying the other company. They use not just dirty illegal menuovers, but Bully Tactics, as in the case of IE and the IM and now Media Player. What they can't win in a fair competition, they just shove it into the OS itself.

I agree but that's modern capitalism.
We had a discussion at university regarding Microsoft not competing fairly (it was some 10 years ago and I think there was some legal battle at the time, maybe it was IE vs Netscape) and I remember my teacher's words - there's no such thing as fair or unfair in business. It's either legal or not.

And even then the Golden Rule applies:

Whoever has the gold makes the rules

If that's prority in your life you can try to fight it, but as stiltman, I'm more worried that I don't get a night sleep with my three small kids at home. Microsoft taking advantage of modern capitalism is the last thing on my mind. I neither love nor hate Microsoft. I think if any company had the same power, would do the same. I can find many flaws in capitalism but picking specifically on Microsoft, I have no reason to (on Bill Gates maybe, because I envy the bastard; if I only had 1% of his wealth... ... well, I'd be in Tahiti now under some palm tree and have a whole team of good looking female babysitters).

[vitualis]

I was really pro-Open Office a few months ago and used it for about a year. Previously using Office 97...

However, eventually, my enthusiasm gave way to the shear fact that Open Office is not as functional, still has display glitches, does not have flawless MS document conversions and is a resource hog... and I bought Office XP.

I have to say that I feel ashamed to say that Office XP is much better than Open Office. Everything just works "better" and it is just damn faster.

Regards.

[hhhhbk]

I'll take option #2
I believe in don't trash a system that works perfectly smooth with more Microsoft Bugs

i agree 110%
i have had problems with microsoft updates time and time again on multiple machines
they sometimes **** up the machine so much that it has to be reformatted
i sometimes install the odd driver update from manufacturers web site but never the **** microsoft puts out
if a system works fine why risk****ing it up
new viruses will still get in

my solution back everything up on cd/dvd if the shit hits the fan and the system wont go into windows then format from scratch it only takes about an hour and a half

with the way microsoft updates **** the system up i refuse to do them

glad there are others out there with the same opinion of microsofts updates!