Microsoft Posts Critical Patches

[Alan69]

Lastly, when I say Flawless, I mean working for lets say 100 days without a single blue screen, no boot up failures, no restarts that weren't inititated by me directly. a PC that actually works without a single problem. and again, if the problem was with Hardware or Software prior to the update, then the problem would have been seen earlier, not just after an update.

My Apologies also for getting angry, I did not like the manner which you've seemed to think of me as unprofessional and someone who does not know what he is doing.

Surely your logical reasoning ability isn't this off if you are a tech.

Software is poorly written and calls routines with assumed defaults etc that aren't valid. Old kernal didn't care. New kernal does. How long the software ran on the old kernal has nothing to do with where the fault lies.

If you don't like people questioning your abilities then improve them, getting mad at people for correctly questioning your reasoning is illegitimate on your part. 1+1 will never really = 3, so find the right answer instead of getting mad at people saying you're adding wrong. Your idea of a change causing problems making the fault Microsoft's is totally incorrect. Something tells me you're a card swap tech and not an engineering level tech. Respect as a tech is earned by correct thinking, not given just because you say 'hey I'm a tech' or 'I'm mad at you for saying I'm not a great tech'. Be correct and earn it, don't try and browbeat others into giving in to you and your wrong assumptions to get it.

There is spot on precedent that ought to make you hold up and think through your position better too. Updates to 95 or 98 in the past caused exactly similar problems, and the fault was proven to be a poor function implementation in the BIOS. Yet there are a lot of ignorant techs who'd still swear up and down the fault was MS's just because they released a patch to cover the poor BIOS. It was never MS's fault, just something they covered just to not have to deal with all the ignorant consumers blaming them for it. (Bypassing a BIOS function is a relatively trivial thing anyway, not much cost to them anyway.) Study a little history and avoid making other's mistakes.

The cause is 'not determined' until it's correctly 'determined'. Your half thought out test doesn't even begin to cover whether the problem is in the new kernal or what's calling the new kernal. That what's calling it didn't cause problems calling the old kernal is irrelevant as a test. It only proves that it was at least a 'don't care' situation before, not that it was a 'correct' one. And there are a lot of function calls with unused arguments for future expansion that are supposed to be given known data, and incorrectly used by programmers. Learn to program Windows API some and find out for yourself.

And don't bother getting mad at me, or acting like I'm mad at you. I'm only giving a correct answer. No different than if you were saying 1+1=3, I will say no it's not it's 2. There are only two sides to the correct/incorrect fence, instead of getting mad you should reexamine your thinking on this one and get on the correct side.

Again, the fault could well be Microsoft's in this. But saying you know from that incorrectly considered test is 100% wrong, each and every time you say it, regardless of where the fault is eventually found to be. Even if it is found to be MS's, it will only allow you to say 'aha, I was right' and continue living in ignorance of your logic fault. It can't make you correct, your logic on this is provably wrong.

A + B works
A + C doesn't work

There is no determining if the fault is in C, or if A + B only happens to work ok even though the fault with A + C is caused by item A. Not enough info to fully determine this logically. Replace A with program, B with old kernal, and C with new kernal. Think through it a few dozen times and become more enlightened, it is the correct answer.

Alan

[JohnnyCNote]

Maybe this upset c-somethin works for Microsoft?

Get real. Not even a nice try....

[JohnnyCNote]

Exactly when and where did C-Note ever get upset? He posted an entirely innocent post regarding a company which obviously has alot of blatant enemies, and somehow he is taking the brunt of those ill feelings.

This is the latest news section and he posted something which is newsworthy to those people like myself who always install the latest MS critical updates. If this is not newsworthy to someone because they either don't use MS os'es or don't trust MS's security updates, then simply ignore this thread.

You all are seriously attacking the wrong guy. Bill Gates is in that really tall building over there.

Thanks mucho! I couldn't have said it better myself....

[Sefy]

@Alan69, Sorry to Disappoint you, but my Troubleshooting is far higher then you may think. And you are more to be like a programmer, cause they just love blaming hardware for every software issue. It's been more then several times that Microsoft had to re-release a patch or fix their own software just because it made havok on a bit more then "one" system out there.

My Logic is not flawed here, and I will use your Logic to prove you wrong, if your A (old kernal) works great on B (hardware) and suddenly A is changed for C (new kernal) while B (hardware) can be several types of different machines, using different configurations. and the C keeps on crashing, then the obvious conclusion is that C is faulty.

Why would C work other times ? same as a Bad Floppy which some drives can read it and deal with it and other drives can't even access it. It's software issues. Also to prove you wrong, as i've mentioned, the same PC which I had BSoD's after applying patches during January, for some reason works again with those same patches, but installed 2 months later. Since it was not changed during that period of time, it proves it was a faulty update

Which is why you will always get "at your own risk" on Microsoft Updates. So you can try to question my logic at any time, but if their updates were so perfected as you may like to think, then we wouldn't have needed these patches in the first place. The fact their Original is already defective, just comes to prove they are world known for releasing bugs and having public be their test pigs.

So saying "Even if it is found to be MS's, it will only allow you to say 'aha, I was right' and continue living in ignorance of your logic fault. It can't make you correct, your logic on this is provably wrong." it completly false, and is usually a comment by someone trying to cover their own mistakes, saying when i'm right i'm right, and when i'm wrong, i'm also right. Which is what Microsoft Attitude is usually, you sure you don't work for them ?

Facts are, Microsoft RARELY admits their bugs, they always fix them again and re-release without letting anyone know about it. So if a perfectly good, stable, running system works great. Later after applying a patch it gets the nice BSoD, then conclusion is "THE PATCH IS FAULTY" and you are playing math to try and prove yourself correct using your false logic. However, it's always easy to come up with something to try and get yourself look innnocent. That is how Microsoft manages to claim their are not monopoly for this long, When it is a basic fact that they are.

[Sefy]

This is interesting, I just got this in the email
http://www.computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/story/0,10801,92349,00.html?nas=OS-92349

Let me quote it for you

"We are extremely concerned by the high amount of vulnerabilities and patches from Microsoft. This goes against the credibility of what they have been saying," said Michael Kamens, global security director at Thermo Electron Corp.

The fact that even a new product such as Windows Server 2003 has problems "brings no great joy to our hearts," said Kamens, who had to patch more than 4,000 Windows systems last week at the Waltham, Mass.-based scientific equipment manufacturer.

Among the flaws considered particularly dangerous was a buffer overrun vulnerability in a user authentication function called the Local Security Authority Subsystem. Hackers who successfully exploit the flaw could take complete control of compromised systems.

Wow, Microsoft sure knows how to have the best software around

[indolikaa]

I wanna Mac!

[stiltman]

You all bitch about the flaws. Then you bitch about them not releasing patches to fix them. Then you bitch about them releasing the patches.


Just sounds to me like you like to bitch about Microsoft...

No one is forcing you to use their products. It's your choice (or your supervisors) to use MS products. I suggest if you hate MS products that much, you should create a business proposal to the people above you to remove Microsoft from you work place. Until you do that, stop bitching about MS

[Sefy]

@stiltman, i've actually managed to trash some of their business at my past work places, got them to drop Office and switch to OpenOffice :P

What you really don't seem to understand is the power of monopoly, you can not use anything else, cause you are too dependend on other products which depends on that garbage OS you call Windows from that garbage company you call Microsoft.

So yes, we "bitch" about their products
and we "bitch" about their bugs and about their "fixes"

Cause that's the only thing we are left to do.

[stiltman]

@Sefy,

Who made them a monopoly? We did, and we can take it away. It just takes planing and business proposals. You have to work to get them out, if that's what you want. There is always an option to a MS product, if the software title is that popular. Everything I can do on my windows PC, I can do on my Linux PC. I however prefer to use windows becuase of its stability. So, yes, I'm perpetuating the monopoly. I also have created many Microsoft clones (MCSEs)

[Sefy]

@stiltman,

You are wrong, it's Illegal business tactics that made them a monopoly, not the public, it's the major companies that were dumb enough. You don't and won't always have an option to an MS product, cause just being one to use it won't do anything.

And i'm sure you know as much as every other person, that Microsoft are very known at their bully tactics at taking competition out, as in giving their products for free, which the competition can't do. Microsoft did it with IE and with IM and now with WMP. Since no one ever uses their products by choice, they force it down your throat using their OS.

I Also refused to pay to get an MCSE, cause I won't support Microsoft. Don't care less if a job won't accept me cause of it. they won't get a dime from my pocket.

[triphop]

There does seem to be a problem with this patch:

http://www.tek-tips.com/gviewthread.cfm/pid/616/qid/821514

It looks like the complainer was correct - it does screw up *SOME* PCs - if you are not the unlucky one, well then you are lucky ( )

[georgepds]

"Having come up through the DOS days, I’ve been running Win 2k very stably for about two years. "

That's my experience too. W2K is pretty rock solid, portable to other machines without registration, and can run all those freware goodies at pricelessware.org

I've come to trust it so much I add and delete video codecs and dvd burner software as needed. All this on a machine that runs 24/7 as an mpbg dvb satellite receiver and as a server to prismiq

OTOH... if the upgrades say media at the MS site, I give them a pass

[Lucifers_Ghost]

On the topic of platforms, does anyone know of a good site for a "tutorial" or a "walkthrough" of Linux? the internet equivalent to a "Linux for Dummies" book.

I have been looking for a site like this for some time and cant really find one.

I dont want to give the impression that I know nothing about computers. I do. However, I dont know anything at all about Linux and would like a beginners type thing, then move on to an intermediate, then expert manual.

So, any ideas?

Any help would be appreciated.

LG

PS. I realize this is off topic for a dvd website, but the topic was already going

[spiderman2k1]

Whats up "Sefy" long time no see. i update windows 2000 today no problem's but on my old pc a p2 400 if you install a service pack the pc will not boot. You might have to flash your mother board bios.

[jtommyj]

You know, when I first read about Microsofts so called illegal activities for putting media player in the OS and the EU fining them over 600 million dollars, I thought about this:

Why doesn't Microsoft quit selling Windows OS in Europe and see how fast they blow that fine up their A**es ? Let'em do without it for a while and HAVE to make a switch and the people in those countries would be so up in arms at their legislators they would have to run for cover.

Do the middle eastern companies have an illegal monopoly because we depend on them for crude oil ? We do have other choices, like battery driven cars, or propane driven vehicles. Just the same, we DO have other OS choices.If the people that complain about MS all the time put the effort forward to LEARN Linux, they could do without Windows.

But in this day and age, it is much more in vogue to sit on your butt and complain than to get up and do anything about it.

Trust me, if enough people left Microsoft they would hear it.

And the best point of all is, people act like MS is trying on purpose to have all these problems and vulnerabilities. If we didn't have unscrupulous people out there TRYING to expose them, the OS would be fine. Put the blame where it is due, on the jerks that do the hacking.

That is like blaming the designers of the World Trade Center for all the deaths because they made a tall building. NOOOO, it was the idiots who flew the planes into them that caused the problem.

[spiderman2k1]

"jtommyj" people will not leave MS for one reason most people are stupit when it come's to PC's. And they need some thing that they can work with. I know Windows good and Linux was a pain in the ass when i tried it out. Second the software for DVD stuff is not that great on linux. MAC is a better way to leave MS. But MAC's are not cheep.. I remember a post at dvd2one on there site alot of people ask for a linux version and the program said there are not alot of linux user's to use dvd2one. He was stupit to say that they more stuff where on linux will help people move over to some thing else.

[richdvd]

All C-Note did was post some information for others.
I can't believe how many whiners and complainers there are on here.
Mainly this Sefy dude

[indolikaa]

Sefy is far from an idiot.

[teegee420]

All C-Note did was post some information for others.
I can't believe how many whiners and complainers there are on here.
Mainly this Sefy idiot.

It seems that Sefy has a number of reasons to dislike MS. His disdain for MS is obviously based on experience. I don't particularly care for his insistance that anyone who doesn't share his views is wrong but I would NEVER go so far as to suggest he was an idiot. I still respect his opinions even though they differ from my own favorable experiences. I think you were out of line.

[spiderman2k1]

I second that Sefy is not a idiot.

[Alan69]

@Alan69, Sorry to Disappoint you, but my Troubleshooting is far higher then you may think. And you are more to be like a programmer, cause they just love blaming hardware for every software issue. It's been more then several times that Microsoft had to re-release a patch or fix their own software just because it made havok on a bit more then "one" system out there.

Actually, unlike you, I can do both. If a firmware update didn't take, I can pull the TSOP flash off the drive, make my own programmer from scratch and program the microcontroller to write to it, program it, and put it back on without damaging the drive. Pretty basic task, but I'm fairly sure you couldn't even do that much, either the hardware or software side of it.

I also worked at IBM doing ThinkPad technical support. Among 100+ support techs I was in the 4 or 5 that people went to when they had a real problem not just a run of the mill basic question. You might be a go to guy in a normal small business. You might even be the go to guy among 5 or 10 ok techs. But with your lack of correct precise thinking you're certainly not a technician's technician. You won't be in the top 10 in a group of 100 or 1000 techs. I'm quite sure you'd find it a major struggle to design a PCI or ISA card, or write more than a trivial program, on the PC or assembly on a micro. I can do these things easily. Also no doubts at all you couldn't do a complex Kmap correctly, since it's pure logic and requires correct reasoning not half-assed guesses. I'm looking at doing my own hardware and software MPEG2 encoder. I have no doubt something like that is way over your head.

I'm quite sure that anyone that met you for an hour, and met me for an hour, would laugh out loud at your claims to superior technical ability.



And *I* didn't blame anything. I said that your proof wasn't a proof. and that there are other possibilties that are still quite open besides just an inside the kernal problem, which is correct. The things you're saying aren't correct. End of story.

Most of these people aren't techs. But also most of them have encountered a situation where they could have sworn a problem was caused by one similarly obvious answer, and it ended up being something else entirely causing the problem when they found the actual cause. It may well be a problem in the new Kernal. It may also be an interaction with something outside the Kernal causing the Kernal to fault through no fault of the Kernal itself, whether it's hardware or other software. And there's miles of software running even on the base OS. It IS LIKELY to be a problem with the update. If you'd said this I'd agree. It's being likely is not a proof that the fault is in the Kernal. It could still be an outside problem that only shows up with the new Kernal. Not having a problem with the old Kernal shows nothing at all. That the flaw is exposed with the new Kernal says nothing to whether the flaw is IN the new kernal or in outside calls to the Kernal that were always wrong but ignored in the old kernal.


Your thinking on this is sub-par for a tech, and a few other people see this as well. People questioning your ability aren't being rude to you, it's not a political correctness type of situation. It's simply a factual raw assessment of your lack of ability. Again, don't like it, improve your abilities.

You're also quite wrong in some of your other ignorant assumptions. I'm quite in the anti-Microsoft side, but unlike you I have some understanding of how complex the total system is, and don't blame them for things until there is ACTUAL proof they are at fault since many happenings are poor code and hardware outside of their scope. And while I am much more aware the OS is very complex, I also see that they are often quite sloppy, but no more so than the hardware and firmware designers. But unlike you I base this opinion on facts, I don't use poor reasoning to make up false 'proof'.



Your skills aren't good enough to debate the issue. You'll always be able to 'prove' yourself correct, because you couldn't care less if what you're saying is correct or not, only that you're 'right'. Anyone who wants can read my statements, and see your own incorrect mischaracterization of them and know for themselves how sloppy your thinking is. And thus know your logic is suspect before they even start on your false proof. That pointed out, anyone questioning your abilities knows they were right to do so. Beyond that, there's no point in further conversation with you since you're not up to the task on this issue.

Alan

[LDinOR]

It seems the patches work out differently for each system. Maybe caused by each users own applied software I suppose. Some of the earlier patches slowed my system down, but after a yearly re-install of Xp (installed OS, SP1 and patches before anything else), everything seemed to work smooth. This struggle will go on forever perhaps because, like another post pointed out, no matter what there will always be people trying to screw it up for the rest of us.

[indolikaa]

Your skills aren't good enough to debate the issue. You'll always be able to 'prove' yourself correct, because you couldn't care less if what you're saying is correct or not, only that you're 'right'. Anyone who wants can read my statements, and see your own incorrect mischaracterization of them and know for themselves how sloppy your thinking is. And thus know your logic is suspect before they even start on your false proof. That pointed out, anyone questioning your abilities knows they were right to do so. Beyond that, there's no point in further conversation with you since you're not up to the task on this issue.

Oh. Somebody let Alan out of his playpen again.


Why is it that whenever you post something you are always right and everybody else is wrong, intellectually inferior and beneath your logical understanding?

I mean, let's break this down completely so we can make sure everybody has a clear understanding, shall we?

Your skills aren't good enough to debate the issue.

Compared to who? You? Hardly. I have a stack of eight cinder blocks out in front of my house that could drag your logical ass through the mud and come out on top.

I suppose you're making this accusation because English isn't his first language, aren't you? Just a guess...

Anyone who wants can read my statements, and see your own incorrect mischaracterization of them and know for themselves how sloppy your thinking is.

I've read your statements. They resemble intelligent thinking much the same way roast beef resembles horseshit.

And thus know your logic is suspect before they even start on your false proof.

In much the same way your grammar is suspect...

Beyond that, there's no point in further conversation with you since you're not up to the task on this issue.

Always there to diss people, yet the first person to declare the argument a dead issue and no longer worthy of your time.

I have a suggestion for you Alan. Since you always find yourself unable to have intelligent conversation with the rest of us idiots, perhaps you should piss off and find someplace else to work on your superiority complex.

[JohnnyCNote]

All C-Note did was post some information for others.
I can't believe how many whiners and complainers there are on here.
Mainly this Sefy idiot.

Thanks, and I agree that it's amazing how a simple message has resulted in all of this. I could appreciate if someone made a comment like "you may want to be careful with this patch because it gave me a BSOD", or something along those lines. But to hijack the thread and embark on a tirade against MS is way out of line. There are plenty of places to go to bash MS, or anything else....

[richdvd]

Ok..I apoligize to Sefy.
My comments were out of line.

[Sefy]

@Alan69, So because you are an Engineer and a Programmer, you have far superior in your intelligence then the rest of us right ? I doubt you would have the bit intelligence to remove a floppy from your drive if your PC says it can't be booted.

True, i'm not a programmer and I have no desire to be one, and i'm not an Engineer or a Designer, which means absolutly nothing your majesty. It just means I have more "hands-on" experience dealing with compatibility issues and software issues then you do.

Again you assume too much of yourself, I did do BIOS updates and Drivers and used every latest in several attempts to see where the problem was, but when it kept on coming after ONLY the Windows Updates. Then the conclusion is obvious, and looking by more links provided, you are obviously wrong and that just proves your Technical Troubleshooting are hurrible compared to me.

I'm quite sure that anyone that met you for an hour, and met me for an hour, would laugh out loud at your claims to superior technical ability.

Funny you should say that now, just yesterday I went to an Interview with Partner (worldwide cell phone company) which were so impressed by me, that instead of wanting me for the one month project I wanted to go to, they are trying to get me into a permenent position as a PC Technician in their company. Amazing how much my "lack" of knowledge gets me.

And *I* didn't blame anything. I said that your proof wasn't a proof. and that there are other possibilties that are still quite open besides just an inside the kernal problem, which is correct. The things you're saying aren't correct. End of story.

YOU didn't blame anything, because you are one of those ass licking techy who wouldn't dare take a risk with your bosses telling him what the fault is so you wouldn't take a stand. You are a wusp (I believe that's the correct spelling) who wouldn't know the truth if it hit you in the face.

Did I ever say the problem was IN in the Kernal ? nope! you can try and quote me on that. What I said was the NTOSKRNL crashes after update and that's it. I said the problem was the latest "Windows Updates" patches. But it appears my english is far superior then yours if you couldn't even get through that egoistic head of yours.

Lets take a look at how many can see me as a "sub-par" technician ? i've got over 2000 private works from people who prefer coming to me instead of going to a lab. I was requested by Microsoft and IBM to work for them, but I refused cause I dislike working with large companies, cause there is no individual and it's all paperwork, something that you do great. EVERY place I've worked for, still contacts me for assistance and no one ever fired me. You are a pencil pusher who propably works in a cubical. While I was in an office larger then the president of the company and the CEO.

Your skills aren't good enough to debate the issue. You'll always be able to 'prove' yourself correct, because you couldn't care less if what you're saying is correct or not, only that you're 'right'. Anyone who wants can read my statements, and see your own incorrect mischaracterization of them and know for themselves how sloppy your thinking is. And thus know your logic is suspect before they even start on your false proof. That pointed out, anyone questioning your abilities knows they were right to do so. Beyond that, there's no point in further conversation with you since you're not up to the task on this issue.

This actually goes right back to you, cause facts are facts and appears that everywhere across the web more are coming with faults. So your logic was hurrible. Actually, you had no logic at all, you were too afraid to put your knowledge at risk by saying anything relevent to the issue. And what does the one who is afraid to say anything do ? they try to attack and insult the one that does, thinking he will cave in and run away.

So lets see how you hold up to "Beyond that, there's no point in further conversation with you since you're not up to the task on this issue." cause usually low-tech people like you with minimum knowledge of actuall work (except ass licking the bosses) tend to come back for more

Oh, one last note, i'll bet with you that during my period of stay on this forum compared to yours, i've helped more people on a topic I have no understanding in regards to it's technical side or enginering side. then you ever had in your whole period. Even if we compare the same period of time to each other. I spend my time helping, while all you do is think of how superior you are to everyone, coming up with lots of fancy phrases, but not actually saying anything

@LDinOR, this isn't about "here will always be people trying to screw it up for the rest of us" at all, it is about warning users that their system may not even boot up after those patches. Which I think is a fair warning based on facts which keep showing up on the web more and more. How would you like to end up with a dead system not knowing what on earth you did that made it and having to reinstall your system.

@richdvd, don't worry about it, I take it you were caught up in the action, if I was really angry at anyone here, I could have done something about it, cause I am a moderator

@Johnny C-Note, please read this carefully before you jump into any kind of conclusions:

You wanna hear critical issues ? I downloaded their latest Security Critical Fixes, and my Windows 2000 wouldn't boot up! it kept crashing on NTOSKRNL

Now THAT is critical!
Thank god I had a Ghost image to restore everything again! :P

That was my first reply to you, which is in a humorish way saying to people to be warned of the updates. Notice those two smiling faces ?

You said it worked fine for you, and I said that you got lucky. You were the one who tried to show your superiority by going overboard with a reply to me and vcd4ever. You can go back and check it yourself. Cause upto those posts of yours, I had smiling icons all over.

PS: indolikaa and spiderman2k1, thanks for standing up to me! teegee420 I appriciate the kind remarks, but just wanted to note, I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me

[jimmalenko]

Well, let see.....

I'm a qualified Mechanical Engineer and a Software Programmer (double degree took me 7 years at university).

Where does that get me in the real world ? nowhere. An interview, maybe. If I'm lucky. Then its all up to to me.

Where does that get me on this site ? Ostracized for claiming certification as a basis for knowledge.

Why ? Certification does not make you an expert, it makes you qualified in the theory. You will be an expert when you have matched the theory with years of practice.

@Alan69:
Every single IBM employee I have met here in Australia has their head so far up their own arse they can scratch their bum cheeks with their shoulder pads. Looks like its a global phenomenon. No one gives a flying **** who you are in the workplace. You've made your bed here by pumping up your own tyres and claiming superiority to everyone else. Show a bit of respect to someone else and you shall receive same.

@Sefy: You are a living legend. Your guides started me off in the world of VCD and DVD. I respect a lot of things you have to say. I don't agree with your viewpoint but I'm happy to accept it. I also work as an IT Technician for a financial institution and have never experienced the problems you describe with roughly 80 computers under my care. Maybe I haven't worked long enough !

[GKar]

I'll stick with Win98/SE with 98Lite and all the bad stuff stripped out, IE, OE, Address Book, MDAC...using Opera and Phoenix Mail as less hazardous replacements. XP is too bloated and insecure IMHO.

[Sefy]

@jimmalenko, we all have different experience through our careers, doesn't make me right and doesn't make you wrong. I Simply wanted to put a nice fair warning of what may happen. Since it did happen, and not just to me as you can see on the web.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. But trying to ditch my own experience just because they didn't run into problems, just shows of how unrespectful they are, thinking they are suprior to everyone. I never in single place consider myself superior to someone else. I work with facts.

PS: Thanks for the compliments, they are very much appriciated!

[lordsmurf]

Wow, what a thread.

Sefy's a good guy.

Some of these posters have more emotions than a menopausal drunk woman. I mostly skimmed this thing because I don't care.

Last time I let MS update my machine, it made IE quit working. I had to reinstall the OS.

So, I tend to be less caring about updates these days. I'll do them when I have some free time and won't be bothered too much by potential downtime.

With hardware and software firewalls, and AV software, along with regular spyware checks, I feel safe enough. Don't need to update MS to death.