Mpeg encoder shootout

[petar]

Ah, OK, so the bug was regarding TMPGEnc not respecting the max GOP size when using open GOPs.
I checked my last encode and all GOPs were fine. Must have been fixed then.
Thanks, andie.

[BJ_M]

tmpgenc also had an issue with spiking the bitrate - ussually at the end or beginning of a file ..

lot of encoders have bugs -- in fact i can name bugs in every encoder in use

[Phlexor]

Okay, the closed/not closed GOP problem is reproducable. I'll do a short encode of say Episode 1 with the 1st 2 chapter points set using [Force Picutre Type Setting] to mark in the I-Frames for the correct chapter points (Chapter Xtractor). I'll then run it through vcdxminfo.exe and dump the APS's to a log file and post that too. You'll see when I mean then.

[Phlexor]

This is the output of VCDImager's vcdxminfo.exe with the paramerters -i -a -v (show generic information, dump APS data & be verbose) on a 40 second clip from the start of Starwars Episode I The Phantom Menace (PAL). Encoded with TMPGEnc v2.521.58.169 and CCE v2.50.01.00 frameserved from an AviSynth script using MPEG2Dec3.dll to read the DVD2AVI .d2v file.

Plus there is a Chapter point at frame 488 (19.520 seconds)
(TMPGEnc misses this Chapter point where CCE gets it spot on)

TMPGEnc

<mpeg-info src="SW_EP1-TMPGEnc.mpg">
  <mpeg-properties>
    <version>1</version>
    <playing-time>39.967344</playing-time>
    <pts-offset>0.346711</pts-offset>
    <packets>3019</packets>
    <bit-rate>1411200</bit-rate>
    <video-stream index="0">
       
      <horizontal-size>352</horizontal-size>
      <vertical-size>288</vertical-size>
      <frame-rate>25.000000</frame-rate>
      <bit-rate>1150000</bit-rate>
      <aps-list>
        <aps packet-no="2">0.000000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="176">2.400000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="214">2.880000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="248">3.360000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="643">8.640000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2038">27.200000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2074">27.680000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2110">28.000000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2147">28.640000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2183">29.120000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2218">29.600000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2253">30.080000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2288">30.560000</aps>
      </aps-list>
    </video-stream>
    <audio-stream index="0">
       
      <layer>2</layer>
      <sampling-frequency>44100</sampling-frequency>
      <bit-rate>229376</bit-rate>
      <mode>stereo</mode>
    </audio-stream>
  </mpeg-properties>
</mpeg-info>

CCE

<mpeg-info src="SW_EP1-CCE.mpg">
  <mpeg-properties>
    <version>1</version>
    <playing-time>39.967344</playing-time>
    <pts-offset>0.346711</pts-offset>
    <packets>3019</packets>
    <bit-rate>1411200</bit-rate>
    <video-stream index="0">
       
      <horizontal-size>352</horizontal-size>
      <vertical-size>288</vertical-size>
      <frame-rate>25.000000</frame-rate>
      <bit-rate>1150000</bit-rate>
      <aps-list>
        <aps packet-no="2">0.000000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="35">0.560000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="71">1.040000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="108">1.520000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="144">2.000000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="180">2.480000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="215">2.960000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="251">3.440000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="287">3.920000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="323">4.400000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="359">4.880000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="395">5.360000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="431">5.840000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="467">6.320000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="502">6.800000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="539">7.280000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="575">7.760000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="611">8.240000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="647">8.720000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="683">9.200000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="719">9.680000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="755">10.160000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="790">10.640000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="827">11.120000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="864">11.600000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="899">12.080000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="935">12.560000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="971">13.040000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1007">13.520000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1043">14.000000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1079">14.480000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1115">14.960000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1151">15.440000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1187">15.920000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1223">16.400000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1259">16.880000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1295">17.360000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1331">17.840000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1367">18.320000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1403">18.800000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1439">19.280000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1465">19.520000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1499">20.080000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1536">20.560000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1572">21.040000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1607">21.520000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1643">22.000000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1679">22.480000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1715">22.960000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1751">23.440000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1787">23.920000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1823">24.400000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1859">24.880000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1932">25.840000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="1967">26.320000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2004">26.600000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2045">27.280000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2081">27.760000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2117">28.240000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2157">28.720000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2218">29.680000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2255">30.160000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2292">30.640000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2327">31.120000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2363">31.600000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2399">32.080000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2435">32.560000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2471">33.040000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2507">33.520000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2543">34.000000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2616">34.960000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2651">35.440000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2687">35.920000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2723">36.400000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2759">36.880000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2795">37.360000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2831">37.840000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2867">38.320000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2904">38.800000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2940">39.280000</aps>
        <aps packet-no="2976">39.760000</aps>
      </aps-list>
    </video-stream>
    <audio-stream index="0">
       
      <layer>2</layer>
      <sampling-frequency>44100</sampling-frequency>
      <bit-rate>229376</bit-rate>
      <mode>stereo</mode>
    </audio-stream>
  </mpeg-properties>
</mpeg-info>

Notice the difference? And remember, this is with 'relax APS constraints' turned off.

Can someone tell me why the big difference between TMPGEnc and CCE in the number of Access Point Sectors in the same 40 second clip?

[energy80s]

I would have to agree that CCE isn't a very user friendly coder, and the fact that it really needs third party software to operate should rule it out of contention whether it costs 2 quid or 2 thousand quid. TMPG is a great coder (if a little slow) and offers a great many options to enthusiasts and professional alike. Just remember to close your GOPs (keep them limitied to 15 for PAL and 18 for NTSC) and keep the maximum bitrate at less than 8Mbps and you can't go wrong.

[thor300]

I cant in any way agree that CCE is hard to use. How can it be easier to encode for example DV files, CCE joins the files and everything for you. tmpgenc doesnt even have any option to join input files, plus that the compliance sucks and the quality is lower. If you cant understand how to use CCE then i wonder how you manage to use tmpgenc? And can anyone tell me, how do you order the filters in tmpgenc? If you need filters and GUI, why not use virtualdub and frameserve, then at least you can decide which order the filters should work in and have at least SOME control of the process. Once you set up vdub to frameserve, open the VDR file in avisynth with the AviSource("C:\MyVdubFile.VDR"), and drop the AVS file into cce. How easy does some people need it? No wonder some still use Nero to make VCDs...

[Phlexor]

Just remember to close your GOPs (keep them limitied to 15 for PAL and 18 for NTSC) and keep the maximum bitrate at less than 8Mbps and you can't go wrong.

Why should I need to have Closed GOPs set in TMPGEnc just to get valid APS's when I don't need to set that in CCE?

Just admit it, TMPGEnc is buggy. Limiting the maximum frames in a GOP is TMPGEnc's Authors way of trying to work around a bug he can't figure out yet.

And closed GOPs is a setting used if you wish to edit the file later or for encoding MPEG2 video for multi angle playback, not a method for making valid APS's

[BJ_M]

I cant in any way agree that CCE is hard to use. How can it be easier to encode for example DV files, CCE joins the files and everything for you. tmpgenc doesnt even have any option to join input files, plus that the compliance sucks and the quality is lower. If you cant understand how to use CCE then i wonder how you manage to use tmpgenc? And can anyone tell me, how do you order the filters in tmpgenc? If you need filters and GUI, why not use virtualdub and frameserve, then at least you can decide which order the filters should work in and have at least SOME control of the process. Once you set up vdub to frameserve, open the VDR file in avisynth with the AviSource("C:\MyVdubFile.VDR"), and drop the AVS file into cce. How easy does some people need it? No wonder some still use Nero to make VCDs...

tmpggenc can join input files -- its had that feature for some time .. , so does mainconcept and procoder , though there are some limitations .

[BJ_M]

Just remember to close your GOPs (keep them limitied to 15 for PAL and 18 for NTSC) and keep the maximum bitrate at less than 8Mbps and you can't go wrong.

Why should I need to have Closed GOPs set in TMPGEnc just to get valid APS's when I don't need to set that in CCE?

Just admit it, TMPGEnc is buggy. Limiting the maximum frames in a GOP is TMPGEnc's Authors way of trying to work around a bug he can't figure out yet.

And closed GOPs is a setting used if you wish to edit the file later or for encoding MPEG2 video for multi angle playback, not a method for making valid APS's

there has to be a max number of frames in a GOP if you want a valid dvd -- in fact , tmpgenc is one of the few encoders where you can have an unlimited number of frames in a gop - like

IPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP PPPPPPPPPPP
try to do make that with another encoder ..

[Phlexor]

there has to be a max number of frames in a GOP if you want a valid dvd

Sure, but isn't that set when you define the GOP structure for you MPEG encoding settings?

Plus this setting doesn't fix the APS problem that TMPGEnc has.

(p.s. can you please fix that long GOP example? it messes up the width of this thread)

[BJ_M]

tmpgenc doesnt have a problem with aps... i would have to see your settings , but you are not comparing the same settings in each case it is clear ..

aps - is better known as intra-coded pictures (I-pictures). You just have more i frames in CCE (which is a correct for DVD seq., 1 per GOP in this case) , than in TMPGenc (which isnt valid) ..

what problem with the post ? it fits on my screen

[thor300]

The post would fit on my screen too... If i could use 3000 X nnnn resolution. The IBBBBBBB... lines doesnt break, maybe different in your browser, netscape maybe.

[Phlexor]

tmpgenc doesnt have a problem with aps... i would have to see your settings , but you are not comparing the same settings in each case it is clear ..

TMPGEnc Settings (Elementry Stream Video only):

Stream type: MPEG-1 Video
Size: 352x288
Aspect ratio: 4:3 625 line (PAL)
Frame rate: 25 fps
Rate Control mode: Constant bitrate (CBR)
Bitrate: 1150 kbits/sec
VBV buffer size: 40 KB
Motion search precision: High quality (slow)

GOP structure: IBBPBBPBBPBB
Number of I picture in GOP: 1
Number of P picture in GOP: 3
Number of B picture in GOP: 2
Output interval of sequence header: 1
MAX number of frames in a GOP: 12
Output bitstream for edit (Closed GOP) [unchecked]
Detect Scene Change [unchecked]
Force picture type setting [checked]
frame 488(I) - New group

Quantize matrix: Default
Output YUV data as Basic YCbCr not CCIR601 [checked] - (because I'm feeding it RGB24)
Use floating point DCT (While using SSE, always ON) [checked]
No motion search for still picture part by half pixel [unchecked]
Soften block noise [unchecked]


CCE-SP Settings:
Video file - ES
MPEG-1 CBR 1,150 kbits/sec

Add sequence end code
Constrained parameter set
Luminance level 16 to 235 - (because I'm feeding it YUY2)
Aspect ratio: DAR 4:3

GOP sequence: /IBBPBBPBBPBB/IBBPBBPBBPBB
M = 3
N/M = 4
SEQ header every 1 GOP
Restrict auto I frame insertion [unchecked]
Close all GOPs [unchecked]

Chapter point set at frame 488

[pauris]

Old, but interesting test with real video http://www.tecoltd.com/enctest/enctest.htm

Btw, I'm using CanopusProcoder 1.5 in mastering quality mode and the quality is much better than CCE (IMHO).

[Sefy]

I've just went over this entire thread, and guys, to be honest with you, I am so glad i'm not a "professional" encoder. Everyone talking about aps and the bugs and super quality and god knows what else you've mentioned here that is what I like to call pure "mombo jumbo" technical babel which I don't really think bugs any newbie

I've done quite a few encodes with TMPGEnc and burned loads of VCD's and my own SxVCD's and other variants and they all workes perfectly on any and all authoring tools and DVD Standalone players that exist. I Wouldn't know a bug if it hit me in the face. Just admit it guys, if you see a DVD movie, you're not gonna see the movie, your gonna see the pixels and bad quality it has! :P

[lordsmurf]

I've just went over this entire thread, and guys, to be honest with you, I am so glad i'm not a "professional" encoder. Everyone talking about aps and the bugs and super quality and god knows what else you've mentioned here that is what I like to call pure "mombo jumbo" technical babel which I don't really think bugs any newbie

I've done quite a few encodes with TMPGEnc and burned loads of VCD's and my own SxVCD's and other variants and they all workes perfectly on any and all authoring tools and DVD Standalone players that exist. I Wouldn't know a bug if it hit me in the face. Just admit it guys, if you see a DVD movie, you're not gonna see the movie, your gonna see the pixels and bad quality it has! :P

Ditto that. I've long since found my comfort zone on quality. TMPGENC and PROCODER are perfect for me.

[SatStorm]

First, that article there is a joke.

TMPGenc Plus is an excellent encoder. The 90% of the users gonna love the results and gonna find the GUI easy to use.
For me, TMPGenc plus has only 3 minus things: Bad resizing (not terrible, but bad), doesn't handle the YUV colourspace (what my DVB source is, so my capures when I can) and doesn't spread the Bitrate "smart" but "stupid" when you use VBR. Also it is "slow".
You can resize external and solve the first minus. You can use a minimum bitrate about 2000kb/s for CQ or use a bitrate patern on 2 pass VBR (minimum - average - maximum equally distant) and eliminate the bitrate issues.
So, the really true problem, is the colourspace. Why is a problem? For 2 reasons: Quality (almost unoticable by many - but it is there, especially for the NTSC users) and Speed (convert YUV to RGB and back to YUV... That takes time)
This is the problem IMHO: If TMPGenc plus 2.5 could handle a YUV colourspace if the user choose to, it would be perfect and I wouldn't ever change an encoder for mpeg 1 / 2.

Anyway, my alternative right now is Mainconcept. I really like it. Some others don't, they like procoder. And this remind me the CCE vs TMPGenc battles. In the close future, we gonna notice Procoder vs Mainconcept battles. It will be interesting and funny I guess. Like see your children fighting for the same things you use to fight as a children with your (now) friends.

CCE , is an excellent encoder. Maybe the best. But it is not exactly a standalone application. You need to use avisynth with it or even virtualdub. In general terms, you need to use a third party application.
Now, if you think about it, it is not CCE's fault: This program is like that, because this is how the owner who wrote it wanted to be. And they sell CCE for CCE as is. You know what you get, when you get CCE.

IMHO, the problem is how non user friendly the avisynth is!
virtualdub with CCE is a joke - the advantage of speed simply disappears when you use combine them.
The only way to taste the benefits of CCE, is Avisynth. Where is the problem?
Avisynth is the most hated application (or whatever we can name it) in this hobby. Only few really like it, many can use it. But the huge majority of this hobby, simply ignore it on porpuse. Including me!
I really, really, really HATE avisynth. I can realise how good it is. How advance it is. How excellent it is. How it is capable to solve all my nightmares in this hobby. But is simply hate it! I prefer waiting hours and do the things less good with other alternatives, that to use it. I hate to program it, to install it, to see it! And this has nothing to do with the fact that I don't know about it. I do. Actually, I have extremelly test it and impressed by it. But I simply hate it. I prefer to use virtualdub. Simply like that....
If I was the only one, you could say that this is my problem. I'm stupid, problematic, ecentric, whatever. But the problem is that the majority of this scene, simply hate avisynth, same way I do.
And because of the avisynth, we really dislike CCE.
Beyond that CCE is just excellent. And still the best encoder we have today. TMPenc come close and Mainconcept / Procoder follow close.

[energy80s]

Here, here!

[Sefy]

Completly agree with you there SatStorm (ps: it's test, not taste ) I'm also one of those who hate AviSynth cause it is SO unfriendly, no matter how many guides I see about it, I just don't wanna deal with scripts! it's annoying!

As for me, TMPGEnc and MainConcept are the best in regards of features and speed and quality in an overall sense and also include a friendly GUI to use. I don't need more then those two. Technicly I use TMPGEnc mostly as I found no reason to switch yet.

I Also prefer not needing many programs to do the one thing I want! and CCE in that regard is VERY annoying that I need to install a 3rd party program just so I can use it to do what I do with just about any other encoder that has those options built in, and I don't care how good another program can do it.

More programs for me means more complexity and more possibilities for troubles.

[thor300]

I think AviSynth is the coolest. Video filtering with text, you write down what you want in the order you want it done and it does it! As for preview of the output, its not that hard to drag and drop the AVS file into WMP or Virtualdub to have a peek.

[Sefy]

When they make AviSynth a GUI with nice buttons, i'll say it's cool
When i'll want to go back to DOS days, i'll put DOS on my PC again :P

[flaninacupboard]

haha, well said sefy

But i miss DOS sometimes. it's quicker to write
"c:\downloads\stuff\>move porn.zip c:\temp\secret"
then open my computer, go to c, go to downloads, go to stuff right click porn.zip, hit cut. hit up, hit up, go to temp, go to secret, right click hit paste. but yeah, no preview sucks. i used to use avisynth/CCE on my athlon 650 because TMPGenc speed was unbearable for DVD projects. but now i have a XP2600 a 2 pass tmpgenc encode with NR and IVTC and resize just runs overnight. absolute best feature of newer tmpgenc is being able to check your settings -while- it's encoding. save me a lot of hours like that! how many times ahve you stopped an encode half through because you're convinced you've done it wrong, only to find it was fine!

[thor300]

SatStorm, what you mean by "virtualdub with CCE is a joke - the advantage of speed simply disappears when you use combine them." ?
I dont think the speed difference is noticeable, unless you save to uncompressed AVI and then load that into CCE. Many people use the workaround i mentioned above to skip that extra step of saving to AVI, it works very well and is about same speed as AviSynth. Just avoid using BilinearResize in vdub, its buggy when upsizing (http://www.avisynth.org/index.php?page=Resize)

[Sefy]

@flaninacupboard, don't you have PowerToys TweakUI ? just right click on the file, tell it where to move it, and walla

I'm not a programmer, but i'm more then positive a programmer can create a nice GUI for AviSynth to make it sufferable to other users who don't feel like needing to create an annoying "script" file in the middle of wanting to do a simple encoding.

I Think it's the one reason for example that Linux never took off the way it could have, it's programmers made it too Textual Based, sure it has amazing GUI and very customizable and all that mombo jumbo, but the home user is not gonna use all that garbage! they want it ready and running!

I couldn't figure out how to bloody install drivers on that thing
When they learn to do a nice "Next" - "Finish" kind of installs for programs and Drivers. Then it will catch on faster. Same goes for AviSynth! when it's got a better GUI (or A gui! ) it will be much easier and friendlier to use! :P

[oficinadamidia]

Just for information;
This is a good link for configuration of TMPGENC for high as possible.

http://dvd-hq.info/Compression.html?PHPSESSID=08c8b447047eafbc8ceb3c764eea64a4

Regards

[SatStorm]

Hi Thor,
it's all about the needs and how you wish to work.
What I mean.
My source are DVB transmissions or captured avi files.
I convert only rarelly my DVDs to CVDs and I never had to convert mpeg 4 to mpeg 2, because I don't download / use mpeg 4 in general (I don't download anything in generall, since I have a very slow PTSN connection, and I don't have money for something more (ISDN or DSL). In Hellas the internet costs a lot compared our salaries and ALL the other E.U. countries).

With both DVB and capture, I have to filter and resize. So, when I use Virtualdub mpeg 2 for my DVBs and my captures (I don't like virtualdub mob for mpeg 2 imports), I load filters and at the same time I frameserve to my encoder.
If I gonna use CCE with virtualdub this way I describe, CCE converts really slow compared with what it can do at speed terms.
If I use avisynth for the same task, CCE converts much faster.

If I compare CCE with virtualdub vs TMPGenc with virtualdub, CCE with virtualdub is still faster (when you manage to make it work....) but you have to handle audio seperatelly and then multiplexx it with the video. So this is 2 extra steps, you don't have to do with TMPGenc.

Also, I never upsizing for anything less than 640 x 576. Since most DVB transmissions are 480 / 528 / 544 x 576, I prefer resizing them (downsize) to 352 x 576.

[BJ_M]

Phlexor

Force picture type setting [checked]
frame 488(I) - New group

is your problem .. looks like some crazy gop settings (KVCD) which might help quality but is totally different than your cce settings ..

[flaninacupboard]

He must have been on the panel of experts in the article.

[andie41]

I am pleased to see that there are quite a few with similar feelings to mine, Re AviSynth. I read so many glowing comments but I also find it annoying and refuse to use it. I am not wearing a "hair shirt"; I started my computer hobby using Dos on the Commodore 64 - 20 freakin' years ago! I put the horse and buggy in the barn.

[thor300]

Ok SatStorm, i see. I cant remember what i did when frameserved from Vdub via avisynth to CCE, maybe just minor resizes or crops or something. I use AviSynth whenever i can, which is just about always, i just tested out vdub for CCE a few times, so i would guess i was kinda wrong when i said there was no noticeable difference in encoding time. I will try again some day to get an idea about the speed difference.