DVD recorder chipsets ... anybody have info?

[lordsmurf]

As many know, I'm quite fond of the quality of an APEX DRX-9000, especially with an excellent performance in 4-hour mode.

It comes with an LSI chipset for video capture/recording.

What do others come with? Knowing this will give us the most info on the quality of the players. The guts, the important part, not just names and brands.

MILPITAS, Calif., June 2, 2003 - LSI Logic Corporation (NYSE: LSI), a leader in innovative digital media processing technologies for the Digital Home, today announced that its DiMeNsion™ 8600 (DMN-8600) DVD recorder processor is now shipping in Apex Digital Inc.'s first line of DVD recorder products. Apex is leveraging the DMN-8600 for its ability to provide the highest-quality digital video and distinctive features in a cost-effective, single-chip design. Apex DVD recorders, including the DRX-9000, will be available at major retail locations this summer at a suggested retail price of $399.00.

"For the DVD recorder market to really take off, devices need to be available at retail for less than $500," said Michelle Abraham, senior analyst with In-Stat/MDR. "They also need to provide higher quality recordings for consumers to consider replacing their VCRs. Apex and LSI Logic seem to have found the balance between quality and price that will facilitate the growth of this market."

"We believe that the market for DVD recorders is about to explode, and we're delighted to be the first manufacturer to enable DVD recorders at a true consumer price point," said Ancle Hsu, COO of Apex. "LSI Logic has not only worked with us to design a feature-rich, cost-effective recorder, but they've also enabled us get to market quickly."

Apex's DRX-9000 features progressive scan, enabled by LSI Logic TrueScan™ Pro technology for clearer DVD video. It also provides instant and programmed recording from TV broadcast to DVD+RW disks, with enhanced recording at either high quality or long play (for additional storage). The DRX-9000 supports DVD, VCD, JPEG, MP3 and other playback capabilities, leveraging the DMN-8600. The industry's first single-chip DVD recorder processor, the LSI Logic DMN-8600 integrates digital audio and video encode and decode capabilities; dual high-performance 32-bit RISC processors; highest-quality display processing abilities; storage interfaces; and a 2D graphics engine. These features lower total system cost, improve performance, and give DVD recorder manufacturers the flexibility to provide a wide variety of system features.

"Our products offer superior video quality, consumer-friendly features and lower BOM costs enabled by high levels of integration," said Umesh Padval, senior vice president and general manager of LSI Logic's Broadband Entertainment Division. "These qualities, combined with Apex's strength in consumer sales channels and manufacturing, have enabled our companies to bring DVD recorders to consumer price points."

LSI Logic's Broadband Entertainment Division provides innovative digital media processing and silicon solutions to industry-leading, worldwide consumer electronics manufacturers. With a complete line of cutting-edge products for DVD, DVR, video peripheral, digital and HDTV, set-top box, and professional video editing/broadcasting devices, LSI Logic delivers entertainment into and throughout the Digital Home.

About LSI Logic Corporation
LSI Logic Corporation (NYSE: LSI) is a leading designer and manufacturer of communications, consumer and storage semiconductors for applications that access, interconnect and store data, voice and video. In addition, the company supplies storage network solutions for the enterprise. LSI Logic is headquartered at 1621 Barber Lane, Milpitas, CA 95035, http://www.lsilogic.com.

[proxyx99]

Sorry, little off topic. What is your opinion as a user about its quality. You seem to be satisfied... as opposed to many giving it thumbs down for picture quality. It's got many really poor reviews. So where is the truth?

[cchang]

LiteOn LVW-5001 and 5005 also use same LSI DMN-8600 chip. I believe JVC DR-M1 also use it.

[KDH]

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/Article.asp?mid=8&sid=11&aid=19

[lordsmurf]

Sorry, little off topic. What is your opinion as a user about its quality. You seem to be satisfied... as opposed to many giving it thumbs down for picture quality. It's got many really poor reviews. So where is the truth?

This is actually quite on topic.

The recording quality of the APEX surpasses that of the Panasonic line-up. It is probably the cleanest quality of them all, and it really shows in 4-hour mode. It blows away all other 3- and 4-hour modes I've seen. All of them. But it is not because of APEX, but because of the chips inside. In this case, the LSI 8600 chipset is the magic in the box. I'm still researching this, but the LSI chip (or at least the APEX unit), appears to have some sort of image processing done to improve the image... one that can actually whip up the Panasonic TBC in 4-hour mode.

As with most other things, poor reviews are often not related to quality, but to other problems (and even then, many of those are simple user error, people that must blame others). However, APEX is not flawless (image quality excluded). The downside to this is some APEX DRX-9000 power supplies will explode internally ... yep, you heard me... EXPLODE. I've seen one. How common is it? That's unknown. Walmart and others sold out nationwide. I've only heard of maybe 12 reports at most of this problem. I've met an equal number of happy users. But 25 out of a much larger number is not all that representative. I'm somewhat disappointed more users are not speaking out, good or bad. Please understand this issue is common with anything made in China using similar parts (apparently involves a big interesting story with things like industrial espionage). I consider APEX and CYBERHOME to be stable fly-by-nights. They have somehow managed to make good products from bargain (not "cheap") Chinese parts and labor. It is probably WALMART that keeps these companies in business. The CYBERHOME CH-1500 is a pitiful piece of junk. The tech support of APEX and CYBERHOME ranges from non-existant to decent. I've never had to deal with either, but I can say I do not look forward to it. Most REFURB units are the APEX DRX-9000 units being sold now. These would be a decent buy. These have likely had bad power supplies, but were now fixed. Go into a Walmart, and ask if they have any in back (even if the shelves are empty). Apex is an odd company. They make one product, and no matter how good or bad, stop making it and move on to the next. This was a good machine, as were older DVD players, but they stopped them and started working on new models. The 9200 and 9300 are slated for release this year sometime (unknown date).

So... what's this all mean? .... To sum it up, I want to find other units with the quality of the APEX (meaning the LSI chip), but that is made from a potentially more reliable company. At the time, the LiteOn was new when I tested it. Maybe later firmware upgrades have fixed its problems, not sure. The JVC was not available when I bought the APEX. I'd look at the JVC most myself.

The other points is this: avoid Panasonic chips, wherever they be found. This is the other point of this post... to ID the chips in others. Just like we ID capture cards as "BT/CX" chips or what-not, these same should be applied to recorders. While the card/recorder can affect the chips, the chips are the single most important aspect when it comes to the image quality. I consider the Panasonic chips the lowest quality, sort of like BT/CX chips being the lowest quality on capture cards. It would also be good to know what SONY and PIONEER and others use for their chipsets. The SONY and PIONEER were actually decent, but way out of reasonable price range (and maybe they have the same chips?).

[cchang]

This Zoran web site claimed that Pioneer, Toshiba, Sharp and Sony all used Zoran Activa 100 chip.

http://www.zoran.com/ar/record.html

Cyberhome, Sampo, LG and Mustek used Cirrus Logic chip.

http://www.cirrus.com/en/press/releases/P372.html

[lordsmurf]

I'm liking this thread. Good info coming out.

So... the last one left to ask about is the PANASONIC lineup ... what is it using under the hood? So far, I know the audio is on a LSI/Panasonic joint audio chip. No info on video.

Looks like the LSI 8600 and the ZORAN ACTIVA 100 are the winning chipsets, and all my tests seem to match these findings! :P Good to know.

The SHARP got lower ratings from many because of the way it was setup. Pioneer, Sony and Sharp quality seem to make people happy. Pioneer and Sony hit from price. So, essentially, these 3 should all look alike.

Cyberhome, Sampo and Mustek have had complaints about quality and operability. They're in the same chip group. 8)

On the LSI again, it apparently has a "Block Noise Reduction Circuit" in the APEX and JVC. Not sure if that's chip-specific or elsewhere in the unit. This has been very apparent to me all along. Now I've got info, and a name for it.

No-names like Polaroid and others will be interesting. I'm hoping others can help on this, I cannot seem to do it alone. And I am not aware of any real comparison on this level.

[cchang]

Hi, lordsmurf:


Open up 5001. Found a Philips SAA7115 Video decoder chip which was also used in some capture or Tv cards

http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/acrobat/literature/9397/75009016.pdf

May be that the filter effect you saw.

[proxyx99]

Looks like the LSI 8600 and the ZORAN ACTIVA 100 are the winning chipsets, and all my tests seem to match these findings!

Hmm, you lost me here. Just to make sure I'm not mistaken, I quickly checked Epinions to find out what is the user opinion spectrum (what I said in my previous post was based on different sources). They vary generally in... how bad it is (not "how good"...). I was not able to find anything positive and yet you declare it almost a winner...(?). Quality is characterized as "poor" at best. What is your experience with HQ and other modes.
Thanks.

[lordsmurf]

@proxy
Most 1-hour and 2-hour modes look alike across the board. The only drawbacks I saw were on the Cyberhome (Cirrus Logic chipsets). The real tests are at 4-hour (or 3-hour if no 4-hour) mode. Also test with various footage of differing styles. T3 was always a great test.

Again, most places with negative opinions are from people that do one of the following 3 things:
1. Put in junk tape, expect it to magically be a commercial DVD in quality
2. Blame something else (even something stupid like "ugly color").
3. Other aspects of the hardware (drive, power supply, fan, etc).
You have to view those opinions like a hawk to find the meaty ones.

The quality of the LSI and Zoran chips are visibly best on output ... (at least the recorders that use these, tests which were tested before the thought of chip-by-chip, which thankfully line up with my results from earlier tests a few months back). I've also got a huge assortment of discs made on other recorders. This outcome is not solely on my tests, but from discs given to me by many people. As far as I am concerned, the LSI and ZORAN chips are the winner when it comes to raw quality of video. Seeing them in action has proven this to me time and again.

@cchang
The DECODER chips are likely just for playback. It's the ENCODER chips I'm hunting down one by one. Maybe other chips conencted to it directly.

[cchang]

I noticed they called it decoder in stead of encoder to describe the chip. However if you look again they are really talking about the encoder (capture device).

see:
http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/pip/SAA7115HL_V1.html

The SAA7115 is a video capture device for applications ranging from small screen products such as digital set-top boxes and personal video recording applications to large screen devices like LCD projectors that benefit from its improved comb filter performance and 10-bit video output capabilities.

It combines a two channel analog pre-processing circuit and a high performance scaler. The pre-processing circuit includes source selection, an anti-aliasing filter and an analog to digital converter, an automatic clamp and gain control, two clock generation circuits and a digital multi-standard decoder containing two-dimensional chrominance/luminance separation using an improved adaptive comb filter. The high performance scaler features variable horizontal and vertical up and down scaling and a Brightness Contrast Saturation (BCS) control circuit. Based on the principle of line-locked clock decoding, the decoder is able to decode PAL, SECAM and NTSC signals into ITU-601 compatible colour component values.

It accepts CVBS or S-Video (Y-C) analog inputs from TV or VCR sources, including weak and distorted signals. The expansion port (X-port) for digital video (bi-directional half duplex, D1 compatible) can be used either to output unscaled video using 10-bit or 8-bit dithered resolution or to connect to other external digital video sources for reuse of the SAA7115's scaler features. An enhanced image port (I-port) supports 8(16)-bit wide output data with auxiliary reference data for interfacing to VGA controllers, set-top box applications, etc. It is also possible to output video in Square Pixel formats accompanied by a square pixel clock of the appropriate frequency.

The SAA7115 can capture the serially coded data in the vertical blanking interval (VBI-data) of several broadcast standards. It also incorporates also a frame locked audio clock generation. This ensures that there is always the same number of audio samples associated with a frame or set of fields. This prevents the loss of synchronisation between video and audio, during capture or playback. Furthermore the second analog onboard PLL optionally can be used to enhance this audio clock to a low jitter frame locked audio clock. All the functions of the SAA7115 can be controlled via I²C-bus.


Features Video acquisition
Six analog inputs, internal analog source selectors (e.g.: 6 x CVBS or (2 x YC and 2 CVBS) or (1 x YC and 4xCVBS))
Two built in analog anti-alias filters
Two improved 9-bit CMOS analog-to-digital converters
Fully programmable static gain or automatic gain control (AGC) for the selected CVBS or Y/C channel
Automatic Clamp Control (ACC) for CVBS, Y and C
Switchable white peak control
Requires only one crystal (32.11 MHz or 24.576 MHz) for all standards
Independent gain and offset - adjustment for raw data path
Comb filter video decoder
Digital PLL for Synchronization and Clock Generation from all Standards and Non Standard Video Sources e.g. consumer grade VTR
Automatic detection of 50/60Hz field frequency, and automatic recognition of all common broadcast standards
Enhanced Horizontal and vertical Sync Detection
Luminance and chrominance signal processing
Improved 2/4-line comb filter for two-dimensional chrominance/luminance-separation operating with adaptive comb filter parameters.
Independent Brightness Contrast Saturation (BCS)
User programmable sharpness control
Detection of copy protected input signals and level according to Macrovision standard
Automatic TV/VCR detection
10 bit wide video output at comb filter video decoder
Video Scaler
Horizontal and vertical down-scaling and up-scaling to randomly sized windows
Horizontal and vertical scaling range: variable zoom to 1/64 (icon)
Vertical scaling with linear phase interpolation and accumulating filter for anti-aliasing (6-bit phase accuracy)
Conversion to square pixel format
Generation of a video output stream with improved synchronisation grid at the I-Port
Two independent programming sets for scaler part
Fieldwise switching between decoder and expansion port (X-port) input
Brightness, contrast and saturation controls for scaled outputs




I think that why they called it decoder- to decode signal.

[BJ_M]

LSI is used in very hgh end video capture boards like the targa series - they make some real good stuff for sure .. you see thier chips in video equipment everywhere.

ZORAN - i dont know what encoders they make but thier chips are used in a number of mpeg standalone broadcast servers and such ... fairly high end (to my mind - 1000-3000$ per stream is fairly high end) ML&MP 15meg/max bit rate stuff .

[HoustonGuy]

lordsmurf- it is amazing that you have gotten away with so much eroneous absolute tripe info. You talked about 4 hour recording . Do you have a hard drive DVDR?. Why would anyone ever want to record 4 hours on one DVD-R or +R. The Panny E-80 and Pioneer 510H are the best recorders - They are king. You bring up brands that only your minions buy. Go somewhere else where you actually have someone that will call you on your idiocy. It is realy hilarious but no it is wrongly informing people that are just geting into this .

[xiaNaix]

What's "amazing" is that AVS trolls like yourself come out of the woodwork to flame someone who's just trying to help. Any mods out there to take care of this nonsense?

[jimmalenko]

Note to self:
People have a right to their own opinions. I need to respect that in order for people to respect my opinion.

You talked about 4 hour recording . Do you have a hard drive DVDR?. Why would anyone ever want to record 4 hours on one DVD-R or +R.

It is really obvious that you have your head up your ass most of the time. You only have to lurk for a couple of days and at least 10 questions will be asked regarding putting more time on DVD/SVCD/VCD than the compliancy standard dictates.

It is realy hilarious but no it is wrongly informing people that are just geting into this .

It is really hilarious seeing people like yourself spout off at the mouth and make a goose of themselves.

[indolikaa]

lordsmurf- it is amazing that you have gotten away with so much eroneous absolute tripe info. You talked about 4 hour recording . Do you have a hard drive DVDR?. Why would anyone ever want to record 4 hours on one DVD-R or +R. The Panny E-80 and Pioneer 510H are the best recorders - They are king. You bring up brands that only your minions buy. Go somewhere else where you actually have someone that will call you on your idiocy. It is realy hilarious but no it is wrongly informing people that are just geting into this .

You need to bend over and prepare to receive the Indolikaa Special you so richly deserve.

[lordsmurf]

Polaroid is using the ESS chipsets:
http://www.polaroidelectronics.com/pages/pressReleases/dvdPlayers/ESS_Tech.asp
The Polaroid machine was not impressive.
ESS is not a name that inspires confidence anyway. Many (myself included) suffered through their crappy laptop audio cards back in the day.

Sanyo does too. I'm currently testing the SANYO. Sanyo, like many other DVD+R/DVD+RW recorders, is using the NEC 1100 drive.

[jlivdahl]

Does anyone know if the:LSI DMN-8600 chip is the same as the http://www.dominofx.com based chipset? It appears that the copyright of the site states: 2004 LSI Logic Corporation. Did LSI just want to add brand recognition to their technology.


Here is what the site says:

-----------------------------------

The DoMiNoFX™ brand and logo represent Visibly Superior digital media processing. DoMiNoFX consists of the following award-winning, patented video processing technologies that produce the highest digital quality for viewing and recording purposes:

TrueScan™ Pro: Motion Compensated De-Interlacing (MCDI) technology
TrueView™ Pro: Motion Compensated Temporal Filtering (MCTF) technology
PerfectView® Pro: World's best and most widely used MPEG compression technology

-----------------------------------


The GoVideo R6640 uses this chipset and is currently only $149 at outpost. See site http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoVideoR6640 to discuss this model.

[lordsmurf]

Yes, same LSI chips DoMiNo (DMN)
GoVideo as a company sucks. I'd buy any other LSI recorder first.

[jlivdahl]

Has anyone used a Recorder with a DV input with the LSI chipset? On the one I am using there are motion artifacts that look like low bit rate MPEG. This even happens on live monitoring of the DV signal. It doesn't matter what the record quality is the edges that are moving are blurred. If I capture the same MiniDV via S-Video in 1 or 2hr mode there are no motion artifacts live or recorded.

Anyone seen this?

Recorder GoVideo R6640
DoMiNoFX™ based chipset

[xiaNaix]

I transferred our 4th of July fireworks display directly from my friend's Sony DV camera to my JVC recorder and it looks nothing short of amazing. Which recorder are you using?

[lordsmurf]

I transferred our 4th of July fireworks display directly from my friend's Sony DV camera to my JVC recorder and it looks nothing short of amazing. Which recorder are you using?

He's using a GoVideo. I'm honestly not surprised.
GoVideo is not a name in quality products.

[samijubal]

Go Video is Samsung, some of the cheapest most problem prone stuff on the planet.