POLL: Are downloaded TV shows warez ?

[jimmalenko]

I'm talking about MPGs, AVIs etc that you have obtained from P2P software and the like. I think they are the same as downloaded copyrighted movies and should be treated as such in terms of the warez rules on this site. Your thoughts ?

EDIT: Judging by everyone's responses so far, I might have to ask my question again because it seems that I am being misinterpreted. The whole point of this poll is that I believe the forum rules do not specifically mention TV shows. I feel it is a grey area tha tmay need clarification in the AUP.

I want to know your thoughts on downloading TV shows that other people have capture to MPEG or AVI and made available through P2P software. Just like DVDRips of movies yet to be released, etc. I'm not talking about recording off TV to VCR.

Thanks to Adam for giving me a clinical Yes/No unlike any of the other Mods...read offline.

[exiled350]

i dont think that downloading over-the-air broadcasts should be concitered illegal. if a television show is brodcast in my area through the air (digital or analouge), not pay stations, and i am fully capable of recording the broadcast via tivo, vcr, or other video capture device; but im too lazy or poor to do this, i should be able to download it off the internet for my own personal use. If the show isnt on at a convient time for me should i be sol because im at work/school and cant afford a tivo, no i should be able to get it through some distrobution network. this applies to digatal broadcasts along with analouge as well only because i own a terestrial hdtv reciver and monitor.

*edit* i completly missed the point of the question posed. a movie is available for purchase, and therefor can be viewed at my lesure. if i miss a tv show which is not a tangable product that can be bought or paid for rebroadcast, i should be able to aquire it through some means and that is downloading off the internet.

[Kingnog]

It depends. I say no. If it's aired on TV, its public property, especially if its non-cable tv.

[disturbed1]

It's illegal.

Your not really suposed to record and keep TV anyways. Teachers are allowed to keep recorded shows for educational purposes for only a few weeks (months at the most).

Wonder how TiVo gets away with it, and why was the VCR ever invented?

[adam]

I don't see how you can have a poll on an issue which is not a matter of opinion This is one area of copyright law that has been well legislated and well litigated to the point where the law is very clear. The answer is yes, it is illegal and yes it is considered warez. Broadcasting something on tv, even on non-cable channels does not put it in the public domain. If it is copyrighted (just about any movie or tv show you watch is) then it is illegal to break that copyright...period. Distributing movies online is most certainly a violation of copyright.

The only right you have specifically in regards to broadcast is to time shift. This means YOU can backup YOUR broadcast for viewing at a later date. Disturbed1 that is why vcrs and tivo are legal, and believe me the MPAA fought these new toys all along the way. There is absolutely no grey area in regards to downloading or otherwise receiving backups of broadcasts from someone else, even if you subscribe to that channel...it is illegal plain and simple.

Now I am referring only to US law, but any country involved in the Berne convention should have very similar copyright provisions regarding time shifting. Under most other countries it is even more restrictive. Also even if you live in another country, if the copyright was filed in the United States then you are still bound by those laws.

Certainly legally, and in my opinion morally, downloading a copy of a broadcast is absolutely no different than downloading the latest blockbuster hollywood movie that's still in theatres.

[pijetro]

I think they are the same as downloaded copyrighted movies and should be treated as such in terms of the warez rules on this site. Your thoughts ?

We have forum rules. No need to ponder over, or question them any further.
I was gonna say something, but well, the others said it more diplomatically.......

[jimmalenko]

Please re-read my original post - it has been edited.

[mastersmurfie]

I say no...

if I can record a TV show on my VCR when it is aired, but I miss it and then find it downloadable, whats the difference? I understand the "warez" rules, and adhere to them. However...it *could* go both ways...

I post saying that I have just captured an episode of <insert TV show here> and am having trouble with it (converting, burning, whatever) because the format that I captured it in was "non-compliant" or whatever might be the problem...I might get all sorts of help...

If I post saying that I have just downloaded this episode of <insert TV show here> from <insert P2P network here> and am having trouble with it, I would get jumped on for asking about warez...

just a thought

mastersmurfie

[jimmalenko]

In no way am I having a go at you, mastersmurfie. Just my opinions...

if I can record a TV show on my VCR when it is aired, but I miss it and then find it downloadable, whats the difference? I understand the "warez" rules, and adhere to them. However...it *could* go both ways...

I would call that bad luck. You were quite able to timeshift by using your VCR but didn't.

I post saying that I have just captured an episode of <insert TV show here> and am having trouble with it (converting, burning, whatever) because the format that I captured it in was "non-compliant" or whatever might be the problem...I might get all sorts of help...

I agree totally. Capturing from VHS yourself is just format-shifting after time-shifting IMO. I don't see anything wrong with that.

If I post saying that I have just downloaded this episode of <insert TV show here> from <insert P2P network here> and am having trouble with it, I would get jumped on for asking about warez...

This is what I'm talking about !

I think downloaded copyrighted movie = download copyrighted TV show.

The AUP does not specifically mention TV shows as being warez. Thanks to Adam for categorically defining them as such. Any chance we could get the AUP modded to reflect this or is it open to interpretation ?

[adam]

I can see how you can come up with examples where you could make the moral argument. But under the law, the answer is still no. The critical distinction that most people overlook is that when you buy a DVD, VHS, or subscribe to a channel you never obtain any rights in the material itself. You are buying the plastic or the tape or in regards to broadcasts, the right to watch the movie at THAT specific showing at THAT specific location. The law just allows you to excersize that right at your leisure. You don't buy the right to view the specific movie at any time from any location. What if I subscribe to HBO but my friend gets the same transmission in High Definition? Does the fact that I paid to watch Sopranos grant me the right to go and cap his HDTV broadcasts? Or download a cap of an HDTV broadcast? The fact that it is the same show is irrellevant. You pay for the viewing, not the content.

mastersmurfie, as far as I can tell your example is analogous to renting a DVD from BlockBuster and not having the time to watch it. I don't think many people would argue that this gives them a right to go and download it, even if they do delete it afterwards. Again maybe people will say its morally ok, but legally I'm sure no one would think this.

[adam]

jimmalenko the AUP describes warez as applying to intellectual property and then giving examples such as movies. I think its obvious that television broadcasts qualify as intellectual property.

But then it defines warez as being that intellectual property which is obtained by violating its respective copyright. So I guess the only question is whether it is clear that downloading a broadcast violates its copyright. Personally, I think it is. I think the general "no distribution" clause is both universally used in copyrights, and universally recognized as being covered by copyrights. But maybe after reading some of the responses in this thread its not so clear after all.

[mastersmurfie]

mastersmurfie, as far as I can tell your example is analogous to renting a DVD from BlockBuster and not having the time to watch it. I don't think many people would argue that this gives them a right to go and download it, even if they do delete it afterwards. Again maybe people will say its morally ok, but legally I'm sure no one would think this.

adam...you are quite correct, and I hadn't thought about it like that when I first posted. It's essentially no different than d/l a newly released movie, or recently released DVD from one of the P2P networks (or copying rented DVDs from the local rental store) I understand that now....

I would call that bad luck. You were quite able to timeshift by using your VCR but didn't.

jimmalenko, you also are quite right about that...before all the P2P apps, what did I do? Basically said "Crap!! Missed that one again!!"

Can I change my vote???

[jimmalenko]

That's fine mastersmurfie

[jimmalenko]

Please not I have amended the Poll question also.

[TwistedLincoln]

I shall make no attempt to argue the legality of the issue, as I am not a lawyer.

But morally, I would say that if the downloaded version still contained the commercials (which are what essentially pay for the content), then it isn't immoral. But downloading an edited copy of the program with no commercials would be different, as you are recieving the service for free, without in turn viewing the commercials, as you would normally have to if you watched the show live.

As to the issue of being able to time-shift a program vs. change the format or veune, I would say that one should be able to port a time-shifted recording to any format (in any non-public venue) they like, provided the format isn't available for purchase. I can see the argument against taping a movie off HBO and making your own DVD when you could spend the $20 and buy a copy. But as many TV shows aren't available on DVD yet, I don't see any ethical reason why one shouldn't make their own DVD's of such content.

Also, another issue that hasn't yet been raised: what if someone doesn't have a video capture card? Let's say they use their VCR to legally record (or time-shift, as you say) a TV show for viewing later. But as we all know, VHS tapes deteriorate, and they wish to preserve this show (which is not available on DVD) on a DVD-R. They have a DVD burner for data backup purposes, but no video capture card. Would it be unethical for them to download a copy of the show in order to back it up to DVD? Or should they buy an expensive capture card just so they can transfer a copy of something they legally recorded to a format that will last longer?

I admit that the issues I've raised aren't too realistic or practical, but for the purposes of a hypothetical discussion, they illistrate my point: while one may be licenced to use a particular copyrighted program, I think it is unreasonable to restrict how they use it (provided it is in a private, non-commercial manner).

[adam]

Human most of the examples you raise are well within the law. You have the right to time-shift and inherant in this is the right to format shift that copy. After all a broadcast is not in any actual archival format. You can record a broadcast and store it as VHS, DVD, whatever you want. The crucial point though is that, just as with the broadcast, you only have the right to view it once. You can store it on DVD so that it will last 100 years if you want, but once you finally do get around to watching it you are legally supposed to erase it or destroy it. Of course no one does this and no one really cares.

As for format shifting generally, (ie: make a cd of your SACD so you can listen to it in your car) now THERE is a grey area. I think courts have gone both ways on this.

[teegee420]

Great thread, jimmalenko. I voted "no" by the way. How I feel about the matter and what I know to be legal are two different things. I know downloading TV shows is warez but I don't think it should be. I think the AUP should be ammended so that the question is no longer in doubt. I will gladly adhere to the rules here too whether I agree with them or not. I don't ever want DVDRhelp.com to became a warez sanctuary that will meet an untimely demise. Then what, go back to Doom9? hudders: Not if I can help it.

[offline]

Thanks to Adam for giving me a clinical Yes/No unlike any of the other Mods...read offline.

@ jimmalenko: Unfair comment! This is what I said on the subject

Quote:
Question for the mods: Regarding the thread above, am I to assume that discussing downloaded TV shows dosn't violate the AUP?

Yes it does. At this time IMHO it is not a big problem compared to say
pirating DVD's or downloading pirated Movies.

If you want duplicate or work with media you do not own then
that is your private decision; if you want to discuss it here then
you are taking a risk that a Mod may consider it
serious enough to act.

Smart posters choose their words carefully and
discuss what they like.

In other words the answer is YES and always was YES.

[jimmalenko]

Firstly, let me say I know the importance of keeping ethics/morals well away from any posts on this site - they always end up in flame wars and tears. I do not mean to offend anyone here, but I did not intend this thread to degenerate into ethical/moral/legal reasonings. As I have said in previous threads:
ethical/moral = what is acceptable to you
AND
legal = what is acceptable by your state/country laws

I'm with you, teegee. I don't want to see the demise of this site either. It has taught me all I know. It has also given me an outlet to give back the knowledge I have acquired from here.

My personal view is that downloaded copyrighted TV shows are warez. A movie that is at the theatre but is yet to be released on DVD and a TV show that has been aired but is also yet to be released on DVD are the same thing, yes ?

[jimmalenko]

@ jimmalenko: Unfair comment!...In other words the answer is YES and always was YES.

offline, thankyou for your unequivocal clarification of my question. The only reason I made this comment was because I felt that your answer (reproduced below) wasn't quite the answer to the question I was asking.

can we then unequivocally say that downloading copyrighted TV shows is the same as copyrighted movies and is therefore warez ?

There are almost always qualifications or exceptions.
That is why it is up to a Mod or the Admin to decide. NOT YOU
If you see a "suspect" post, jimmalenko, I'd like you to report it
rather than jump on the person - is that unequivocal enough?
Offline (any comments send via PM or start new thread please)

I was going to PM but ended up starting a new thread. I didn't feel that you post gave an unequivocal, hard and fast definition, whereas I thought Adam did.

I withdraw my comments and offer an apology.

[offline]

No problems jimmalenko,
infact your poll is timely - judging by the current results it
seems there is some confusion.

-edit- off topic but important when finding a post that breaks the AUP.

There is another, and IMHO, a bigger problem, when newbies
post and get attacked for a silly mistake by a number of
regulars. It gets worse when innocent posts are misread
and the poster is set upon by a hoard of flamers who are
convinced that the post is against AUP.

Everyone, please report suspect posts rather than jumping
on them. Sanctions, if required, are the domain of the mods
and the Admin.

Anything else is bashing and in future may be flagged.

[spiderman2k1]

The reason TV station do not like people download TV show's is that there are add's on the show and they want people to watch the add's. This is the same on Pionner's DVD-R Tivo that you can not edit the commercials out. If a TV show cost one or five mill to make there want as much people to sit down and watch.

[dafoe]

oops

[Craig Tucker]

Yes its illegal. A lot of TV shows - lets take as an example The Simpsons - are put onto DVD for sale. Are we to say that its OK to download episodes of the simpsons that someone has captured off a TV broadcast, but its not ok to download episodes that have been ripped off a DVD. I see no difference between the 2 cases. Downloading copyrighted material is illegal, no matter what its source is. I see no differentiation between DVD rips, TV captures, VHS captures or studio screeners. People may think that they have a moral argument that they can put forward, but I thing the law is pretty clear and is with reference to copyrighted material, it does not concern its source of origin.

[feenix]

Whilst I accept the theoretical illegality of it does anybody know of anyone that has been successfully prosecuted for having an already aired tv program on VHS?

[jimmalenko]

...Downloading copyrighted material is illegal, no matter what its source is. I see no differentiation between DVD rips, TV captures, VHS captures or studio screeners...

Well said
I'm with you.

[tim6661234]

Having a copy of any copyrighted material is illegal, doesn't matter how you got it. The difference with videoing off T.V. is they don't have any way of telling you've done it. With P2P your IP address can be traced.
You've just introduced a small risk that you will be caught by downloading, doesn't make it illegal.

The clues in the word copyright, you don't have that write full stop.

[andyp1]

A lot of series of TV shows are released on DVD .
So I suppose any TV show could be concidered as 'Not yet released on DVD'

Just a thought.

[petar]

Just playing the devil's advocate.

If I've missed a TV show (or a movie or whatever) and forgotten to set my VCR (or maybe I don't have a VCR), then download the show, put it on RW, watch it once and erase the disc, would you consider this as breaking the law?

In theory it's the same? Or not? Why would the time shifting only apply to VCRs? Would you consider breaking the law to tell my parents to record a TV show for me so that I can watch it the next day (as long as I delete it afterwards)? If not, then why not download it? It's not my parents in this case; it's some guy/girl I've never met but it's all the same to the law.

So, if we assume what I said before is true, let's go further. Once a movie has been aired on TV and I haven't seen it, I have the right to download it and watch it once, yes? Whenever I want, yes?. The time shifting doesn't specify that what I record with my VCR I have to watch it within a day, week or month. As long as I delete it after watching.

OK, again, let's assume the above is true and go on. A particular older movie (say Ben-Hur) has been aired on all TV stations maybe a dozen or more times. So if I download it, burn to DVD, can I watch it a dozen times before deleting it?

What do you think?

[jimmalenko]

IMO you lost it in the first paragraph and went out on a tangent after that. As I understand it, time shifting is setting up your VCR (or DVD recorder in this day and age) to tape it and watch it later. If you forget to tape it then bad luck. I think you go wrong as soon as you say download. And that was my point in the beginning...