POLL: Are downloaded TV shows warez ?

[babyboo]

Jimmalenko...Thank you for starting one of the most interesting and relevant discussions in quite a long time!

[jimmalenko]

I'm expecting a flame war to start any time now...

[petar]

As I understand it, time shifting is setting up your VCR (or DVD recorder in this day and age) to tape it and watch it later. If you forget to tape it then bad luck.

As I said, I was playing the devil's advocate. I'm not defending downloading copyrighted material (I own a DVD rentals store, so quite the contrary) but I think it's not all black or white as you're putting it.

I don't think that there's anything in the law that specifies that time shifting has to be done with a VCR (or DVD recorder) and it has to be done by me personally. It can be done by my wife. Or not? If so, why not by someone I don't know?

[jimmalenko]

That's fine mate, I got no beef with you. As I said..."As I understand it. That don't mean its right !
I'm happy to hear other peoples' opinions. That's why I posted the topic.

[petar]

No, I didn't take in any bad way.

By the way, you may want to re-phrase the poll question. "Copyrighted movies = copyrighted TV shows" - the obvious answer to that is yes. If it's copyrighted, it doesn't matter if it's a movie, TV show, song, someone's wedding video...
I'm sure people that voted no, meants no because it's been aired on TV, not because there is any difference between the two.
I think it would be better to put something like "if it's been aired on TV, can I download it?", or something like that.

[jimmalenko]

Thanks for the suggestion. I might leave it as is for now. I might start a new thread with that though

[andkiich]

I think that the "spirit" of time shifting implies that you as the viewer personally record the program at the times it aired on TV with whatever recording device you choose.
Having someone else record it and give it to you is a no-no, regardless of how it is delivered(TAPE/DVDR/download).

This is how I perceive the issue to be legally. if you personally do not do the time shifting, then it's illegal.

Just my thought.

[petar]

I think that the "spirit" of time shifting implies that you as the viewer personally record the program at the times it aired on TV with whatever recording device you choose.
Having someone else record it and give it to you is a no-no, regardless of how it is delivered(TAPE/DVDR/download).

You're probably right, but then, am I not allowed to tell my wife to record me something while I'm away? Or perhaps, it goes per household. In that case, am I not allowed to tell my parents to record me something while my wife and I are away?

[J3M]

Downloading copyrighted material that you have not been given permission to use/view is illegal, period. Will the MPAA, FCC, or whomever polices these things care that Grandma recorded Family Guy for her Grandson to watch later? Probably not. Will they care that script_kiddie_#1 has every episode, commercial free, available for download off of his PC? Probably.

Before the Internet, copyright infringement was still happening, just on a much smaller scale. The RIAA really doesn't care if my friend makes me a copy of a CD. It's still illegal, but has a very limited impact on the RIAA. It's when millions of Internet users can potentially download this CD that they start seeing red. Same thing for the MPAA.

While I personally think that the MPAA and RIAA are a bunch of greedy bastards, they are still a business trying to make a buck. They have legal rights to the information they provide. If their products aren't valuable to you, why are you downloading them? If they are, then buy them.

[adam]

petar of course you are allowed to have your wife or family members record YOUR broadcast for you. If you have a right to do something you can designate an agent to do it for you under certain circumstances, and this is one of them.

The key to time shifting is that you are backing up THAT particular viewing of the show. I'm talking about the 8-9 slot that it was aired on for the particular channel you have subscribed to at that particular location. That is all you paid for, you have no right in the television program itself. That .mpg on Kazaa is a backup of the tv show itself.

Forget about content, it is irrellevant to time shifting. When you subscribe to a channel a signal is sent to your home. You have paid to have that signal sent to you, so you have a right to record portions of that signal and use them at a later date, once. You can't download portions of someone else's signal. They are two different things that were obtained with two different licenses.

[indolikaa]

There is another, and IMHO, a bigger problem, when newbies post and get attacked for a silly mistake by a number of regulars. It gets worse when innocent posts are misread and the poster is set upon by a hoard of flamers who are convinced that the post is against AUP.

Everyone, please report suspect posts rather than jumping on them. Sanctions, if required, are the domain of the mods and the Admin.

Anything else is bashing and in future may be flagged.

It is our responsibility to report any abuses of the forum rules. That is done on a regular basis. It is the moderators' responsibility to pass judgement. This is also done on a regular basis. The system works very well here because the members and moderators are proactive in keeping the community inline with the rules that allow us to continue to exist.

When a newbie's first post falls along the lines of, "Hey I just downloaded LOTR III from eWanker and need to know how to burn it to DVD," or "my 30-day trial on TMPGEnc just ran out and I'm looking for a keygen so I can keep using it," they're going to get flamed unless a moderator can lock the thread quickly enough.

That is not a silly mistake. That is a dumbass who doesn't care enough about this community to bother reading the rules.

I don't see a problem with me posting a simple "Dumbass." in response to such a thread. I've done it before, and nobody's ever told me I'm in the wrong. It's not my job to say, "Mr. Schnitzel, downloading movies from the Internet is warez and is not tolerated on this forum." That's the moderators' problem, not mine.

The dumbass posteth, the dumbass deserveth.

Take these words only as an opinion from the resident *******, and nothing more.

[petar]

If their products aren't valuable to you, why are you downloading them? If they are, then buy them.

I thought I'll get misunderstood. I'm not defending downloading TV shows, movies or whatever. I own around 2,000 DVDs for some of which I've paid twice or more than what their price is in the stores (because of the rental's right).
I was just trying to make an argument whether it's all properly regulated by a different point of view (seen 12 Angry Men with Henry Fonda?).

Downloading copyrighted material that you have not been given permission to use/view is illegal, period.

It was actually this statement that I was challenging (though I agree with it). If the material was aired it means I have permission to view it. Time shifting allows me to watch it later. So what's the difference whether I tape it or download it, providing in both cases I delete the copy after viewing it?


However Adam's comments are something different.

I'm talking about the 8-9 slot that it was aired on for the particular channel you have subscribed to at that particular location.

That's a valid point. However, let's say that it was aired free, not cable. The location doesn't matter then. I can take my TV set with me, go to a different location and view it there. So, if someone recorded the same video, the same 8-9 slot, the same channel, put it for download (without getting into whether this is legal or not), am I breaking the law by downloading it?

[Capmaster]

I think there is an important distinction between TV shows and movies. Movies are usually commercial-free. TV shows usually have commercials and one could argue that TV shows are simply a series of commercials with material between them to draw you in and get you to watch. The commercials generate revenue for the network and sales for the sponsors.

The point I'm getting at is that copyrights are designed to prevent someone from making money from your idea. It's obvious why a movie would be copyrighted. If you copy it, you're not buying their studio-marketed movie, and they lose revenue.

With a TV show, the material contained in the show generates money from sales and by copying it you're not only not harming the creator of it, since it's not taking money out of his pocket, but you're actually helping him by replaying the sponsor's commercials. If copying became widespread it might even enhance the value of a commercial minute on a show that reaches such a broad market.

[adam]

By location I'm talking about the point where the signal ends, the point where any given person allowed to received it, does so. If the signal is otherwise passing through your antenna and your VCR then you have the right to hit record. Anything beyond this is not covered under time-shifting.

First off, you have to understand that there are many parts to a copyright. Obviously the main one is that you can't copy the material, but there are others such as no distributing, no duplication, etc...

Time-shifting is an exception only to the "no copying" provision. You are allowed to backup your signal, which you personally received, for a one time viewing at a later date. Under time shifting you do not have the right to send that backup to anyone, and you do not have the right to receive that backup from anyone. To do so is to violate the "no distribution" provision of the copyright, which is not exempted under time-shifting. Obviously if the copyright holder was willing to let people distribute their material online, they would have entered into a contract with someone to do so...so that they could receive payment for it. They instead chose to enter into a contract to broadcast it via television. That is their right to limit the distribution only to this specific avenue.

Secondly you have to realize that time-shifting is a very specific and limited exception to copyright law which is granted under the Fair Use provision. The jist of these provisions is that a copyright holder will be able to enforce their copyrights against you up until the point where it becomes unfair for them to do so. Prohibiting you from downloading a backup does not infringe on your Fair Use right to time-shift because you can still record it as it is being aired through your hardware. Remeber the goal of copyright law is to protect the copyright holder, not the consumer.

[rhegedus]

I have no problem with it - even though I capture anything I'm likely to want to keep.

The argument that VCRs are legal because they allow users 'timeshift' opens up a whole new grey area, since I don't think there is a definitive answer as to how long you can keep the VHS copy for. Now that DVD recorders have become common place, it lends a degree of finality to the copied material in that you intend to keep the source video permanently. This is especially so now that HD/DVDR combos are readily available: moving from HD to DVDR is final - period.

If the source material was in 'public domain' then I have no problems with keeping it public.

[adam]

The point I'm getting at is that copyrights are designed to prevent someone from making money from your idea.

No its not. The point is to give the copyright holder control over their creation regardless of whether they or anyone else can make money off of it or not. I can assure you that there are thousands of copyrights out there on material which is completely unmarketable. You do not have to have actual (monetary) damages to enforce your copyright. You simply have to show that someone has violated the terms of your agreement, that agreement being the one between you (the copyright holder) and the government.

[Gazorgan]

Forum rules have nothing to do with Warez. You can't call it warez, period. But call it nothing and your fine, the old "downloaded video" nudge-nudge wink-wink. It's thin ice that won't hold up in a court.

In the US The only thing you can legally download (video wise) are trailers (then usually only from the source site), certain public domain videos (and then again some are only from the source site) video's of dubious quality, and certain homemade vidoes where video recording was expressly allowed (Grateful Dead or Ecoustic Hookah, but most definately no Pearl Jam or any band with a record contract), and personal videos you created and have the rights to (original material, with no copyrighted background music).

That means TV show downloads are illegal. DVD's of TV shows are just like any other DVD, downloading is illegal.

Therefore: Pretty much anyone converting 700 and 1400 MB AVI's is a pirate , since in years of searching I've never ever seen a Public Domain video of that size. I guess whole sections need to be deleted...[/i]

[BSR]

Uhh, I have a 700Mb XVID home video I captured from my DV video camera and want to convert it to DVD.

Yes I do believe its not legal.
Whats that announcment they say at the begining of every MLB Baseball game about copyrighted material.

[indolikaa]

Whats that announcment they say at the begining of every MLB Baseball game about copyrighted material.

We have a winner.

[lechtin]

There is one point that has not been adressed yet (I think) and that is the length of time a copyright on a show lasts. I though I read 17 years somewhere, but I don't know if it is for patents, copyrights, or for what type of material. The reason is that if you have kids like I do, I'm sure you find some of the kids shows today to be stupid of even mind-numbing (I'm sure everyone has one in mind by now). I can think of one cartoon that aired when I was a kid (20 years ago) that explained the origin of man and his history. Would it still be considered copyrighted or would it be okay if I found it say on an old VHS tape from my parents and wanted to convert it to DVD for my kids? What if they release it on DVD?

[petar]

By location I'm talking about the point where the signal ends, the point where any given person allowed to received it, does so. If the signal is otherwise passing through your antenna and your VCR then you have the right to hit record. Anything beyond this is not covered under time-shifting.

I think I lost this argument (not that I believed in it; as I said I was just playing devil's advocate).
This also means that when my wife and I go on holidays, I'm not allowed to tell my parents to record something for me, doesn't it (unless they come to my home to press the record button)? Otherwise they'll be violating the copyright by distributing the video, right?

[rhegedus]

Whats that announcment they say at the begining of every MLB Baseball game about copyrighted material.

We have a winner.

But aren't most sports games only on subscription channels now, not public broadcast?

[bugster]

Therefore: Pretty much anyone converting 700 and 1400 MB AVI's is a pirate , since in years of searching I've never ever seen a Public Domain video of that size. I guess whole sections need to be deleted...[/i]

There are now quite a few sites offering mpeg and xvid downloads of certain types of commercially available movies. Many of these are more than 700Mb in size. Don't be too quick to judge.

[adam]

This also means that when my wife and I go on holidays, I'm not allowed to tell my parents to record something for me, doesn't it (unless they come to my home to press the record button)? Otherwise they'll be violating the copyright by distributing the video, right?

Well if they also subscribe to that channel or whatever, they can back it up for themselves. You can then all sit down together and watch it at a later date. There is a specific provision in copyright law which allows public viewing at your home. So since you are allowed to go to your parent's house and watch Seinfeld with them as it is aired, they can record the program and you can all watch it later...at their house.

But yeah, technically I guess if you wanted them to backup a broadcast which you subscribe to, solely for your benefit, then they'd have to go and do it at your house otherwise it just wouldn't qualify as time-shifting.

[bugster]

This also means that when my wife and I go on holidays, I'm not allowed to tell my parents to record something for me, doesn't it (unless they come to my home to press the record button)? Otherwise they'll be violating the copyright by distributing the video, right?

Isn't this why VCR's and DVD recorders have timers?

[indolikaa]

I love this thread!

One thing that has intrigued me, though. I don't see how Sony v. Universal can be applied here. That lawsuit substantiated the fair use right to record television material on a VCR. Downloading the material implies the user did not make the recording. The physical recording constitutes fair use, not the perception of the action. That's my take, anyway.

An interesting argument nonetheless.

[petar]

This also means that when my wife and I go on holidays, I'm not allowed to tell my parents to record something for me, doesn't it (unless they come to my home to press the record button)? Otherwise they'll be violating the copyright by distributing the video, right?

Isn't this why VCR's and DVD recorders have timers?

It was a hypotetical argument regarding what is legal under time-shifting, regardless of the media/device you record with.

[burnman99]

I would agree that downloading a show can be warez...however, if you buy a program, (I own plenty of cartoons) and convert it to a downloadable file, and let people download it, is THAT warez? When does the consumer get ANY rights?

[andkiich]

I think your question has been answered. You own the right to view the material on the DVD. You do not own the video/audio on the DVD. By allowing that to be downloaded, you break copyright and disctribution laws. That is unless you have the authority to do so by all the companies that either own the material and/or distribute it.

It appears that we have the right to purchase little discs of plastic and metal and have the right to view it for personal use. Outside of that we have no rights to anything media related.

[adam]

I would agree that downloading a show can be warez...however, if you buy a program, (I own plenty of cartoons) and convert it to a downloadable file, and let people download it, is THAT warez? When does the consumer get ANY rights?

The consumer gets the rights to distribute it when they gain the express permission from the copyright holder, which usually requires buying a commercial license. When you purchase a movie the only license you have purchased is the right to watch that movie.