ATI AIW Radeon Theater 200 Chip Better than the original??

[Offroad]

Do the newer cards Ati All in Wonder cards that have the Theater 200 chipset capture better quality video than the cards with the original Theater Chipset??

Do any of the ATI PCI add on cards feature Theater 200 or the original Theater chipset or is this a feature of the All in Wonder Cards only?

Thanks.

[thecoalman]

I'm not sure about the quality as I have nothing to compare it to but if you want to capture older VHS movies see my page here before purchasing. The stuff that I am able to capture with it looks fine a little grainy maybe but again I have nothing to compare it to.

http://www.coaldelivery.com/ati/

[vh5150]

Man your thesis might be correct. I was going to buy the datavideo tbc but I figure I go all out and get the Canopus advc 300. I figure since I have some old tapes that can be salvaged then the canopus would be it.

I have a 9600 AIW in the box still and would like to put it back in if I can see the Canopus work. I have no problems with live video, only with tapes. I called ATi and have yet to get a response from what they think it is.

[thecoalman]

With the exception of the inital response requesting more info I have yet to hear a response from ATI, fortunatley my computer vendor is involved so I'm not stuck by myself. It's been just under a week and the silence on their part is actually getting comical. They did send me a link for updated WDM drivers which I think were beta but they didn't work.

I almost did the same thing and go out and buy a TBC. But the more I dug the more it didn't make sense. What if I bought it and it didn't work? Besides I shouldn't have to purchase something like that. I don't expect miracles just similar results to what I get on a regular VCR to TV connection.

If you have time check out this link. I deleted it from page cause it was dead. It's back up now. The site probably dropped it for a while cause of the traffic. There's two links on the bottom, same movie,different capture cards. Check out the results.

http://www.powow.com/phscrambler/

[lordsmurf]

Yes, but not by much. They are the same for all intents and purposes, especially on new computers with good CPUs.

A real TBC cannot be replaced by a Canopus ADVC-anything.

[vh5150]

So you're saying I should go with the Data Video TBC? I do have original off air tapes that need to be archived. I figure that the Canopus is better than the Data Video.

Man you should call ATi with those captures. Either they don't know what's going on or they know and just want people to keep calling with their UFO stories.

[thecoalman]

I'm pretty sure they saw them. The tech from my computer vendor was quite happy to see them. Guess I would be too when you can point to something and ask them to explain it. Like I said on my page this isn't isolated. Saw many posts about the same issue, quite a few on here alone.

I'll post a thread when I get a response, if any.

Waht do you think about this?..... What if they embedded the Macrovision detection directly on the board? Huh?

[vh5150]

I wouldn't doubt for a slight second that macrovision is hardware based on my 9600 AIW.

I tried all versions of MMC and WMD capture drivers with both the 7500 AIW Radeon I now use and the 9600 AIW stored away in the house. Not only did the 9600 fail to capture old vhs tapes clearly but this debacle had me convinced it was a hardware issue more than software one. Even after exchanging 9600's. I will try the Macrovision hack first before I give up and keep the TBC.

Damn ATi.

[mic_]

I don't know if the newer ATi boards have h/w macrovision detection, but my AIW Radeon (7200 or something like that) doesn't. With early drivers (like back in 2002) I was able to capture from copy-protected tapes. Then at some point they apparently decided that people shouldn't be able to do that, and included macrovision detection in the wdm driver. ta... :P

[thecoalman]

I have tried the hack out of frustration. I don't trust stuff like that. Doesn't work anyway, at least on my card.

My point was this, and this is just speculation on my part. If they embedded it on the card maybe they can't fix it. Maybe they decided to make it hack proof. Maybe they made it so hack proof they can't hack it themselves. That would be quite funny if it is true.

I'm only suggesting this cause of the amount of posts I've seen regarding this, some dating back 5 or 6 months ago. At some point in time someone at ATI had to sit up and say we have a problem here and if no one hasn't then they better.

[FOO]

The type of macrovision varies with the tape.
there is the "false hsync" signal which is the type detected by ATI.
This can be circumvented with the driver hack.
There is also the "luma overvoltage" type. This is not actually detected
but causes the picture brightness to vary up and down.
This cannot be fixed in software , because the capture hardware does it.
(and not on purpose either , just like a VCR)

Most of my tapes have both kinds. Some only have the first kind , and
capture just fine ( with the hack )

I think there is another type , but I don't have a tape with it.

[thecoalman]

Ok, so if what you said is correct then it is the hardware doing it becuase that is the results I get when trying to capture my home movie It flashes from dark to white sometimes constantly. I also get that white tearing at the top. But it plays, you can tell what your viewing.

The macrovision protected tape on the other hand is completely shot when trying to view it. It jumps from one frame to the next, jitters, in addition to the flashing from bright to dark.

Now that I think about it if my memory serves me correctly the macrovision protected tape after applying the hack only had the flashing . I currently don't have it installed, i'll have to to apply it and get the VCR out and see what kind of results I get.

[lordsmurf]

Just a quick note...

You can't blame ATI for this "problem". Home devices were never made for you to copy commercial tapes. You want to do more than the device was designed for. Thus, you must buy a TBC.

Blame it on whoever you want. But blaming ATI is as dumb as blaming G.W. Bush for it.

[Offroad]

Thus, you must buy a TBC.

Does this apply to my own home movies on VHS or just to commercial VHS tapes?

Thanks.

[thecoalman]

Lordsmurf,

First....I can care less about copying protected movies. If I want to watch a movie I'll go rent it and with the advent of widescreen TV what's the point anyway unless it's something unavailable in widescreen format. The macrovision protected video is for comparison only.

Second...I suggest you read a little more before making quick short judgements. No where do I state that I blame ATI for my inability to capture a commercial movie. I blame ATI for my inability to capture my home movie.

Third....I find your answers on this forum to be too short, incomplete, arrogant or entirley wrong which makes them for all intents and puposes useless.

I quote:

I’m using an ATI AIW 9700 card and ATI MMC 8.1 software. I can capture video in other programs but not MMC. I upgraded to MMC 8.9 last night but there is no change. All the MMC functions appear to work accept the capture button. This button is grayed out (doesn’t work), even though I can view my incoming video signal in MMC. Any suggestions or did I miss some kind of setting? Thanks.

From The ATI Expert:

Uninstall all ATI ... drivers, softare, delete the directories manually, etc

CONTROL PANELS -> SYSTEM -> DEVICES to remove devices/drivers

Use all the new stuff (8.9) if you're patient. I suggest 8.7 because it's most stable. It took me hours and hours to get 8.9 working, and I couldn't have done it without my knowledge of PCs. Not for the newbie.

From Me:

I had the same problem. Try this it will only take a second. Above the stop button on the left hand side of the control panel is a button looks like a circle with a line or a TV (should be a TV if it's the same problem I had). Click it change it to circle with a line, that's it the record button should be available. Like I said I had the same thing happen to me. Not really sure even what it's for, but it does change the feed from live to whatever connection your using.

The original poster:

thecoalman, Amazing! It worked. This allowed me to record and I though I had pushed every button there was. Thank you very much.

Original thread: https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=215659

Shall I discuss the fact that you do not know the difference between resolution and actual image size. I only bring this up because again you provided me with information that was wrong. I know the difference but if your going to provide information to someone and state it as fact it better damn well be right.

Stick that in your TBC......oh, two final toughts.....if you still don't know the difference between resolution and actual size I'll be more than willing to explain it to you and finally it took me less than a few minutes to get 8.9 MMC running. It must be a lack of knowledge on your part that it took you "hours and hours".

[FOO]

I'm willing to blame ATI for detecting MV and refusing to capture.
They went out of their way to implement this and it's none of their
damned business what I do.

[thecoalman]

Well I think it's going to come back and bite them on the @#%. I just checked my computer vendor's site and currently this card is available on only one machine. It was available on nearly all of there top of the line machines a week ago.

I have no problem with them for implementing this for copy protection. The illegal copying of discs is a big problem and only drives up prices for people like me who are more than willing to go out and purchase them.

[ajc53]

I am with you Coalman. Put me down for a class action.

I DO BLAME ATI for this problem. They should disclose the fact that if you buy this product for the purpose of copying your home VHS camcorder Movies, BE PREPARED TO NEED A GOOD TBC. as this card will otherwise mistake some imperfections and display unsatisfactory results, similar to Macrovision detection. Instead they advertise “CAPTURE AND EDIT YOUR HOME MOVIES”.

Then some of us may have bought the Canopus ADVC-100 instead, or at least known a little more what we were getting into.

It is interesting that the new Canopus ADVC-300 appears to be having the same problems as the newer ATI cards. At least we didn’t spend $550, and be in this situation.

I am like you, I could not care less about commercial tapes. I have 65 two hour VHS home movies to deal with.

I bought my AIW 9000 based on Lordsmurf’s ATI recommendations. Had I read your post, and the Canopus ADVC-100 reviews, I may have went with the Canopus ADVC-100. But now that I am used to capturing to Mpg2, I am not sure I want to go to DV and have to spend the extra time encoding.

I am still undecided as what to do next, and I am following your post for ideas. I am still going to contact ATI even though I don’t think it will do any good, but at least they will know of one more unhappy customer.

[offline]

It is a sad fact that industry protection schemes always seem
to affect the innocent. Any video pirate worth his salt would have
a top of the range TBC with colour correction and all the bells
and whistles available. Home video users, who simply want to
copy a non-protected tape, find themselves stuck for additional cost
which is disgusting in my book.

Macrovision does not only effect ATI users, just try running
a video through a projector without an additional or built in TBC
and see the results.

I got sick of MV ages ago and imported a SIMA TBC at some
cost (shipping and poor currency values doubled the price at the time.)
Now I can hook it up to whatever I'm doing and everythings peachy.

(I use an ATI9200 256mb card for capturing)

[thecoalman]

Happy to say goodbye ATI hello Nvidia.... My computer vendor is upgrading me to a Geforce FX 5950 256mb based card and is throwing in a Leadtek PCI TV/FM "WinFast TV2000 XP Expert" just for kicks.....

Anyone have any experience with this TV card, hope it's not junk. Guess it doesn't matter it's free.

[lordsmurf]

If you want to place blame, point the finger over at the greed-mongering money-whores at MPAA that made MV a requirement. ATI and others do it to dodge lawsuits... again, from our a-hole buddies at MPAA.

[thecoalman]

Sorry but if a product can't perform a task it shouldn't be marketed that it can. This is like buying a car and finding out only 6 of the 8 cyliders work and to make it work you need to buy special gas. Give me a break.

[ajc53]

I agree. They should tell us when new technology is being force on them which will effect legit users. Not wait to we buy the capture devices and and play like it not a problem.

And who is in the best position to stand up to MPAA and fight. ATI and other capture card companies. They should take the position “we can’t implement this new thing because it effecting our legit customers”. Making them spend hundreds of dollars to copy their home movies. And if they do spend the money they can defeat the stupid MV anyway.

I have already ordered the SIMA-CT1. Next month I will upgrade my VCR, probably the JVC HRS-9911(I figure I will benefit regardless). Then I will probably end up buying the TBC-1000.

Them I am going to feel like a Smurf

[Kolosus]

According to an article I read some time back, MV Detection was included in the hardware of ATI cards starting with the 9000.

And on the 8500 and older, if you use the latest and "greatest" drivers, the MV hack won't work. Don't quote me on this, but I think 7.9 is the last one the MV hack will work on.

According to another article I read some time ago. Our beloved MPAA (Gestapo) has contacted (pressured) several hardware manufacturers to include hardware MV detection.

I better shutup now before I go off on another tangent. I've stood on my soapbox enough on this forum about the MPAA RIAA. AKA "Big Brother".

Regards.

[Kolosus]

Ooops! BTW Offroad.
I have heard mixed reviews as to whether or not the theater 200 is better.
Some report a noticeable increase in capture quality at lower CPU usage.
Others say they can't tell a difference.
I can tell you this. If you have integrated video or sound, beware.
It may or may not work on your system.

Regards.

[FOO]

I'm running MMC 8.9 and the MV hack is working

I have a AIW8500

[indolikaa]

Sorry but if a product can't perform a task it shouldn't be marketed that it can.

ATI worked fine for my VHS and Beta collection...

I DO BLAME ATI for this problem. They should disclose the fact that if you buy this product for the purpose of copying your home VHS camcorder Movies, BE PREPARED TO NEED A GOOD TBC. as this card will otherwise mistake some imperfections and display unsatisfactory results, similar to Macrovision detection. Instead they advertise “CAPTURE AND EDIT YOUR HOME MOVIES”.

Yeah.

Never mind the fact that the USER may have recorded the video in question on a VCR that wasn't properly aligned and calibrated? Why is it that when people can't make hardware work, it's always the vendors' fault?

I use multiple ATI AIW 9000 Pros. They were used to transfer a vault's worth of videotapes, many more than 20 years old. Most of them transferred fine, some needed a TBC. The ATI card is only as good as the source material. Home videos? Is there a worse situation for a helical-scanning magnetic tape format to be sujected to during the recording process?

It doesn't work, so it must be the manufacturer's fault.

[Offroad]

MV Detection was included in the hardware of ATI cards starting with the 9000. And on the 8500 and older, if you use the latest and "greatest" drivers, the MV hack won't work. Don't quote me on this, but I think 7.9 is the last one the MV hack will work on.

Thanks for the info, If you had a newer model like the 9700 could you just load the older 7.x version of MMC if you needed to capture a tape or two that had MV? Or would you need an older card and older drivers?

Thanks.

[Kolosus]

Smurf might be a better one to answer the new card, older drivers and mmc question. I've not tried it. I do know that my 7500 will work with new or old drivers and mmc.
If you have the funds available, buy a TBC or MV remover such as "The Clarifier". Then you can use the newer drivers and mmc w/o having to digress back to the old mmc.

Regards.

[Kolosus]

FOO wrote

I'm running MMC 8.9 and the MV hack is working

I have a AIW8500

Would be very interested in knowing how you did that FOO. I've not been able to get it working on mine. Is there a newer version of the hack I'm not aware of?
Or am I missing something else? I'm also using 8.9.