TMPGenc does not produce VCD complient files!

[Panash]

Every so often I raise this issue but no-one seems to take this seriously, probably because nearly all DVD players can play the VCDs produced by TMPGenc and I don't know mpeg at the binary level. However after more experimenting I'm convinced of this.

Put quite simply, TMPGenc mpeg1 is not VCD complient! VCD mpeg1 is a subset of the full mpeg1 specification. It seems that only the auther of Womble mpeg2vcr is actually aware of this! (read the help files on this!).

My portable VCD player plays commercial VCDs & raw Hauppauge files faultlessly. Tmpgenc files suffer jerkyness & stuttering sound.

I use the so called VCD profiles supplied in TMPGenc without modification.

In what way are the TMPGenc files not VCD complient?

Answers like 'what profile are you using?' or 'are you sure that you haven't done this or that...' are not acceptable. I want an answer from someone who has looked at the binaries (or the nemonic equivalent) and understands the difference between mpeg1 & mpeg1/vcd.

I've emailed the developer at Womble as well, but really this is a limitation of TMPGenc.

PN

[zedolfblack]

My portable VCD player plays commercial VCDs & raw Hauppauge files faultlessly. Tmpgenc files suffer jerkyness & stuttering sound.

I analysed some TMPGEnc VCD standard files with VCDEasy's MPEG Analyzer and found that all the files encoded as System[Video+Audio] - that's a single stream - had buffer errors.
These same files de-multiplexed then multiplexed with TMPGEnc's MPEG Tools would then show NO ERRORS when analyzed by VCDEasy.

I've since started to encode to elementary streams.

Are you encoding to a single System[Video+Audio] stream?

Martin.

[Panash]

Yes, I too saw those TMPGenc buffer errors with VCDeasy's analyser. I put the TMPGenc through Womble (mpeg2vcr) multiplexer & (although I didn't recheck with VCDEasy), the stuttering in the sound dissappeared but video jerkyness remained. According to the Womble documentation, this is equivalent to demuxing & remuxing and every permutaion of that.

Actually Womble generated files still have slight video stuttering, but not as severe as with TMPGenc. I left this out to simplify the description of my experiments and also to shock everyone out of their complacency about TMPGenc. It tends to be regarded as the 'Gold Standard' and it isn't. Syntactic complience is as important as video quality.

The raw Hauppauge files are fully complient. They cease to be fully complient after editing in Womble. There is some flag or parameter somewhere which is being altered by these editing/transcoding applications.

PN

[zedolfblack]

I recently started using MainConcept Encoder.

Sometime it's chucks out an error that the Video Buffer Value is too high for the current encoding parameters and reduces it to a value it calculates to be valid.
(This is with xvcd settings).

I'd guess that TMPGEnc always uses it's default VCD VBV of 40KB and performs no error checking on the VBV value.
Are subtle settings changes like this important?

Martin.

[Panash]

Its settings like the VBV that are exactly what I'm looking for! I'm sure that one of them holds the key.

Does TMPGenc allow control over VBV? If so where & any suggestions as to a suitable value?

How would I find out the VBV for a given stream? (ie Hauppauge vs Womble vs TMPGenc)

Any there more parameters like this that you know of?

PN

[disturbed1]

Try system stream with the multiplex settings of VideoCD(non Standard) in TMPG.

When I made VCDs, I always had to use Philip's VCD Tool Kit to multiplex the files, 'cause TMPG never did it correctly. It's the funny speed up slow down thing that was posted ages and ages ago here. Talks about TMPGs GOP, VBV, and multiplex settings.

[Panash]

What's the difference between 'standard' & 'non-standard, (I'm at work, TMPGenc's at home). My understanding that it was only bitrate, & resolution & stuff (I've never had any cause to tinker with these settings)

PN

[disturbed1]

In the multiplex setting, standard binds every thing to the standard. The mux bitrate, the VBV buffer, the packet size.

Choosing nonstandard, change the muxing bitrate.

What this does -

If you created an MPG set at 1150, it may (or may not) have peaks above 1150, when multiplexing at any point the bitrate is higher, you'll recieve a bufferoverflow, which will cause skips/jumps upon playback.

Using nonstandard, doesn't bind the muxing bitrate to 1150, and allows for peaks above 1150 without giving buffer overflows.

I believe TMPG VCD muxing is broken anyway.

I've always used Philips VCD Toolkit to author and mux. If your into VCDs you might want to give it a try, it is free. Though VCDEasy is EASYier to use At lest try the muxer. Instead of outputting mpg files, it calls them .mmd files, just rename them to mpg.

[Panash]

I've always used Philips VCD Toolkit to author and mux

I'll give that a whirl tonight when I get home.

Meanwhile any other clues? Why should to bitrate exceed 1150 with everything like CBR defined in the template?

Did Philips ever publish an encoder? (Having asked that I realised that there's probably no means of frameserving to it so the range of input formats is probably quite limited).

Why does Womble hic-up slighly after editing a complient VCD mpeg?

PN

[disturbed1]

CBR isn't really CBR, it is close, but if you look at the bitrate graph of a cbr stream it isn't constant.

Some encoders vary more than others. But a peak of 1200 wouldn't too extreme. I've seen older versions of TMPG peak as high as 1400 with a CBR of 1150, newer versions are suposed to be better.

Philips didn't make or doesn't have available an encoder.

Don't know what you mean about the Womble hic-up. If the bitrate does excede 1150, maybe this is what causes it. Get bitrate viewer to check you mpg file.

For VCD you need (standard specs)
352x240
1150kbit/s video
224kbit/s audio (44.1)
VBV buffer of 40
constrained parameter has to be set.
2 packet sizes are widely considered, 2352 and 2324.
GOP doesn't really matter, I've used upto a length of 52 with 3 B frames per P frame, but may cause tracking errors with some set tops. General rule is 1/2 FPS with 2 B frames per P frame.

There is a portable VCD player that has problems with 1150 encodes, when these first came out, I think everyone was using 1100 to give it a little cushion. Perhaps your captures are a little under 1150 as well as the comercial VCDs you have. Set bitrate can differ greatly from actual bitrate.

[zedolfblack]

The GOP structure settings tab in TMPGEnc has a checkbox

Output bitstream for edit [Closed GOP]

I believe it maintains the GOP structure [I/P/B pattern of pictures] throughout the encode with no inconsistencies.
You may find it worthwhile to check it for a test.


Using the VCD Standard setting in the TMPGEnc multiplexer will enforce the VCD specification.
As already posted, a CBR encode will vary in it's actual bitrate throughout it's duration.
The VCD Standard setting will pad the multiplexed file with null data to bring the bitrate up to VCD standard, does it discard bits over the VCD Standard if the CBR varies to a high?
Using the VCD(Non-Standard) setting will multiplex without the adjustments for VCD Standard.


QUOTE 'I believe TMPG VCD muxing is broken anyway.'
TMPGEnc had a bug [now fixed] quite a few versions back..
The VCD(Non-Standard) setting worked the same as the VCD(Standard) setting and padded all files to VCD Standard.
Used to mess up my xVCDs!

Martin.

[FulciLives]

When I played around with VCD a long time ago I also used TMPGEnc and I found that playback problems would happen when I used anything otherthan STEREO for the sound ... many guides (at least at that time) seemed to indicate you should use Joint-Stereo or maybe it was Dual Channel but only STEREO worked for me.

Also I never could get the NTSCFilm VCD template to play back stutter free so I always used the normal 29.970fps NTSC VCD template eventhough sometimes my source was a 23.976fps DivX source.

For authoring I was using Ulead Movie Factory 2 without issues.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Panash]

Channel but only STEREO worked for me

I believe this is default, left as is.

For authoring I was using Ulead Movie Factory 2 without issues.

I've used MF2 and achieve the same findings as VCDEasy

Output bitstream for edit [Closed GOP]

I believe it maintains the GOP structure [I/P/B pattern of pictures] throughout the encode with no inconsistencies.
You may find it worthwhile to check it for a test.

I seem to remember trying this as the Ligos goMotion encoder in MF2 produced a shorter GOP structure than the default TMPGenc, and I've also tried the open/closed GOP flag, but I don't mind going back & repeating this experiment. (I'll need some more blanks soon though)

I think everyone was using 1100 to give it a little cushion.

I tried this last night without any improvement.

I've always used Philips VCD Toolkit to author and mux

What is the extension on the image file? I've always had problems finding burning software to use this authoring suite but burnatonce may be capable. However, I don't think that the fault lies within VCDEasy as it authors & burns Hauppauge files without error.

(b.t.w. in case the thread dies, thanks everyone for their interest)

PN

[disturbed1]

There's a utility that will convert the image output from Philips. It's called TOC Split and should be included in the software package.

If not, you can get it from www.icdia.org

The fault is not with VCDEasy. It's with the output stream that TMPG is creating. I just like the features of the VCD Toolkit.

Try multiplexing with the vcdmux from the toolkit. I made many vcds with VCDEasy, using Panasonic's mpeg1 encoder, mpeg sequence maker, VCDMux, and VCDEasy.

MF2 makes nice VCDs with audio on the menus. Roxio's VideoPack was a very, very nice authoring software for VCD, SVCD, and DVD. Shame they killed the project.

[Panash]

I don't understand the function of sequence maker. The readme file indicates that it is to be used in conjunction with Roxio's VideoPack. Sequence headers seem to be the hooks required by the chapter entry point table.

The principle artifact displayed by my portable VCD when playing back a TMPGenc file is that it seems to play the frames out of sequence. I'm totally guessing here but its as though a B frame is being interpreted as a P frame, there's a jumping back in time that occurs at about the P rate, about 3 to 5 times a second I guess. I could always capture it again and post it somewhere if it would help.

I'll try the combinations you suggest, but it will take a day or two before I can get round to it.

PN

[disturbed1]

What you're describing is the funny speed up slow down (as it has been called :P )

The mpeg sequence maker adds sequence headers to every I frame in a mpeg1 video stream. Panasonic doesn't add the sequence headers, so chaptering isn't possible. A chapter can only be placed on an I frame, since PWI doesn't create them, it isn't possible without this app.

Your problem is clearly in the multiplex program being used. Just use VCDMux from the toolkit, and it should fix your problem. Choose ES streams in TMPG to output a mpv and mpa file. Load these into VCDMux. It muxes to a mmd file. Rename that mmd file to mpg and author with VCDEasy.

[Panash]

That great, can't wait to get vcd2tk.zip home to try.

Thnx

PN

[Panash]

The answers out there - always, if you know where to look.

https://www.videohelp.com/VCD2TK_TMPGEnc.htm

says catagorically that

The VCD templates supplied with TMPGEnc do NOT create MPEG-1 files that are compliant with the VCD 2.0 White Book specification. However TMPGEnc can create video and audio streams that can be used as inputs to a VCD 2.0 compliant multiplexer like VCDMUX

I'm not sure why

For GOP structure, it is recommended that you use IPB counts of 1, 4, and 2 with 1 sequence header per GOP. Disable detect screen changes

Its the only non-standard action I can see in the encoding process itself.

Do you know of a reference to

What you're describing is the funny speed up slow down

Thnx

PN

[disturbed1]

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48574&highlight=


The reference you asked for, is what you just posted. And was also posted above

"GOP doesn't really matter, I've used upto a length of 52 with 3 B frames per P frame, but may cause tracking errors with some set tops. General rule is 1/2 FPS with 2 B frames per P frame."

30 fps = GOP length of 15 1 I frame, 2 B frames, 4 P frames

[FulciLives]

Now that I remember I also used to click on the CLOSE GOP thing in TMPGEnc

I mostly did this because I would encode a movie in total (from start to finish) then cut it into 2 or 3 parts to spread it over the discs.

I never had any issues.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

This is why I use PROCODER for VCD or even any 352x240 resolution encode.

[Panash]

Unfortunately the trial version of Procoder isn't available anymore and I'm reluctant to spend the $60 on it just to see if it works with my VCD player.

I tried the Philips VCD mux last night and found that it would accept without error TMPGenc files demuxed with TMPGenc. I had to demux with Womble. Alas remuxing with the Philips mux didn't improve things.

I had also reduced the GOP length as well, from 15 to 12, didn't make any difference. Still looking.

I'm going to experiment a little more with putting mpeg produced by Womble's encoder through VCDMUX. The stuttering & jerkyness wasn't anywhere near as bad as with the TMPGenc. Interestingly when I pulled the data back from a VCD with isobuster, the stuttering seemed to have gone away. Need to investigate further.

PN

[FulciLives]

@Panash

It seems to me that very few DVD players have problems playing VCD discs that were made from TMPGEnc encoded files.

Therefore, wouldn't it just make your life SO much easier to just buy a new DVD player and stop trying to fool around with a bunch of different software methods ... none of which really seem to be working anyways with your current DVD player.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

I'm not talking the EXPRESS one ... I've got the full monty ... $600 1.5 VERSION with dongle in my computer

[disturbed1]

with dongle in my computer

Hey...

This is a clean forum, keep your sick habits to yourself :P

Procoder is very nice. Procoder Express is just as good if you don't need the multi-format output options. It's missing mastering level output, and some basic editing features available in the full version. But it's a better deal when compare $2000/$60 CCE, $600/$60 Procoder.

Come to think about it, I only used TMPG a few (failed) times to create a VCD, I always used Panasonic's Mpeg1 encoder. But TMPG is free for MPEG1 use, hard to beat that.

I would agree with FulciLives, but finding another portable DVD/VCD player cheap isn't easy. The portables that are out there are nice for $150-$$$$$$. That is the route I'd take, if you have a DVD Burner.


In the meantime-

I'd use something like MPEGAN to analyze your Captured mpeg files and compare them to TMPG's to see what the difference is. Grab bitrate viewer to check the bitrate, full version allows for GOP comparing, exports to a nice xls format to import into your spreadsheet app.

bbtools can give some info too. Its CLI with an option to output the data to a text file. Use bbINFO to get the properties of mpeg program streams, and bbVINFO for video only streams. This will give you the dirt on your files, carefull with the verbose level settings, they do produce a bit of data.

[Panash]

Its not just that I'm looking for a cheap VCD player but a light weight player.

The idea is for our children to enjoy some television in the car (& when camping etc). My VCD player is walkman size and I've built a sprung cradle which cushions the bumps in the road and rests on the parcel shelf - results - a journey which starts with as much tranquility as it begins. There are DVD players in Richer Sounds stacked floor to ceiling for £25 each that will play practically anything (mine will even play a raw mpeg file off a data CD at any resolution, NTSC/PAL, 1.3041 times D1 - an exageration perhaps but you get what I mean), but they are 240Volt, 100Watts and weigh about 2Kg. The practicalities of spring suspending these & providing power, my wife will go mad, there's no room as things are! not to mention the red hot cigarette lighter

The portable DVD player is about £200 in the UK, I'll consider it over the summer perhaps but with the courts hounding me for 15% of my salary in child support, it becomes hard to buy on a whim. And I don't know how well they will cope with bumpy roads.

I've bought two walkman VCD players now and they are both as sniffy about the complience of the VCDs inserted into them. Both are ok with commercial VCDs & Hauppauge, neither are happy with TMPGenc - ergo TMPGenc is non complient and we would be improving an already great bit of software even more if it was fully complient.

I don't believe the answer lies in the GOPs, the VFW buffers or any of the other controls, it lies in the binary, and I believe that someone who knows has to look there. Chang@womble is looking at this for his product. It would be good if this was done for what must be the world's most popular MPEG encoder.

PN

[disturbed1]

Do have a napa by any chance?

https://www.videohelp.com/reviews/napa311/napa311.htm

There were some posts about encoding VCDs for it. People had the same problems as do.

If it is the Napa portable VCD/MP3 player I did a search and came up with this
http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&newwindow=1&safe=off&domai...w.dvdrhelp.com

Maybe you could find some more insite.

[Panash]

Its called a 'Burn-Star' but its almost certainly got the same DSP & MPEG decode engine as the NAPA. There's only so much you can do in that much space & with a pair of AA batteries. It's a miracle it works as well as it does. I suspect that's why it has to have exactly 100% complient files - every single CPU cycle has to be used to process expected data and not juggle something non-complient.

I'll have a poke around the links you gave.

thnx

PN

[Panash]

came up with this bit of witchcraft

http://www25.brinkster.com/fletchlinks/napa311/guide.asp
PN

[Panash]

should be

http://www25.brinkster.com/fletchlinks/napa311/index.asp

PN