What's the best DVD recorder out there right now?

[rhegedus]

" is the fact that they're still stuck on dvdram."

That stuff lasts forever.

If it is in a cassette - I don't think they physically last longer than other DVDs without it.

Plus, they also write to -R

Wow! It wouldn't kill them to ad -RW support, would it?

[FulciLives]

Perhaps what handyguy was trying to say is that DVD-RAM is much more durable and can be written and erased more times than DVD-RW or DVD+RW

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[rhegedus]

According to Ricoh, +RW can be re-written about a 1000 times. Should we really bother with the supposed longevity of RAM any more?

[Capmaster]

True, it's not likely anyone could realistically test the "100,000 rewrites" claim. It's too bad DVD-RAM never took off. It's the oldest DVD format for the PC and being truly random, along with HD-like error correction/detection, makes it a good format. It's gotten loads of bad press though and many people shy away from it. Plus, it's expensive. I have a total of (2) DVD-RAM discs at home since it's almost impossible to find them for less than $5.

[DaveS]

.... Anyway, I did some research and found the Sony GDRX7 records everything you capture between REC clicks, not too good for 600$...

???

[lordsmurf]

Plus the apex doesn't even have a tbc in it. Whereas panasonics' is the best in the market and much better than any standalone one even. I'd say that is pretty special. The only thing I hate about them is the fact that they're still stuck on dvdram.

The TBC is meaningless if it cleans a signal, only to seconds later record it with subpar MPEG encoding. The LSI chips (or at least the board used with them) use a few noise processing chips to filter the signal. In the end, between a TBC/Panasonic and a NR/Apex, the NR/Apex setup wins.

People are too ooo'd and aaah'd by the magic word "TBC" to see it for what it really is: nothing special. At least not with how it's used here. I have TBCs, I know what they should do. The Panasonic may as well not even include one, as it doesn't use it properly.

LiteOn (get the 5005 with fan) and JVC (PAL only right now) also have the same LSI chipsets, but a potentially better-made chasis. If you don't want APEX brand (which is still fine), then those are the other choices.

If you have money, the ZORAN chips in the SONY, PIONEER, SHARP and TOSHIBA are also quite good. Though I still think the LSI chips have a slight edge.

The PIONEER shown above, originally posted in another thread by BJ_M, is probably quite a nice toy. Best in the market? Probably that one.

Best that we can afford? Look at LITE-ON 5005, APEX 9000, or SONY/PIONEER/TOSHIBA models.

No Panasonic, you say? Nope, not a chance. First in the market doesn't mean best. Badly used TBC doesn't mean best. Most common (because it's the oldest) doesn't mean best. Hard drive doesn't mean best either.

Considered extended warranties on new tech like this too, if possible and not too expensive.

Happy shopping.

[FulciLives]

One thing I have noticed with the Lite-On brand (5001 and 5005) ...

No where on the website does it mention anything otherthan the fixed recording modes of 1 hour, 2 hours, 4 hours and 6 hours.

It doesn't seem to have a "flex mode" like the Panasonic.

I recently looked at the manual for the Pioneer 510 model (downloaded it) and it has a very nice feature where you can set the recording time in increments of roughly 5 to 10 minutes. So you can do 130 minutes or 140 minutes if you need more than the standard 2 hours/120 minutes at the "set" recording speed. In fact it seems from reading between the lines (I could be wrong don't have one to test) that the Pioneer doesn't drop from Full D1 to Half D1 until you go PAST the 140 minute mark.

Anyways I wonder if the Apex is like the Lite-On units ... no flex recording time? Can you answer that LordSmurf?

If the Apex doesn't have flex time then perhaps this is a limitation of the LSI chipset?

In any event I will not buy a stand alone DVD recorder that doesn't allow some sort of flex time recording. I don't care HOW good the MPEG ENCODING CHIPSET/HARDWARE is if I have to use the 4 hour mode to record anything over 2 hours. Doesn't make sense to be forced to use a 4 hour mode to record say 3 hours of material.

When I record 2 hour programs on a VCR I use a T-160 and set the start and end times 5 minutes prior and 5 minutes past the start and end times listed. Channels vary alot when they start stuff so this way you don't ever miss anything. At least with the Panasonic or Pioneer I can adjust for that without going form 2 hour mode to 4 hour mode for 2 hours and 10 minutes of recording time.

I mean the Lite-On unites could have AT LEAST provided a 3 hour mode!

So anyways if you ask me the Pioneer models are looking better and better.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[BJ_M]

that jvc pal unit may be a good option for people in ntsc land if they have a display device or dvd player that can play back/view pal (or using a pc) .. many now do even in n. america ..

i dont know how that unit does on the fly conversions though ...

[zanos]

@Lordsmurf

You're simply assuming that my statement about the panasonics' tbc isn't backed up with actual testing but rather than what I've heard and I can tell you and anybody reading this right now that if you have old vhs tapes that kind of look like crap to the point where images start to actually bend and twist around on the screen then get the panasonic because no other dvd recorder to my knowledge will correct this. The Sony will actually make it worse and everything from cheap to expensive professional standalone tbcs will do absolutely nothing. Heck my sima color corrector does a better job at fixing that particular problem although i'm not sure why. Uh I'd say the Panasonic is utilizing it's TBC to it's utmost capacity and beyond so I don't know what you're talking about. Compared to other dvd recorders and $500 to $1000 standalone tbcs it literally destroys them.

Btw I have not tested the pioneer or jvc but from what I hear on here in the past and in magazines the quality is not on the level of the Sony and Panasonic. One magazine I read even bashed the JVC for it's lack of quality in one hour mode and rated it the worst among all the more well known dvd recorders out there. I have personally tested the Panasonic and Sony which many consider the best in terms of color/quality and it's extremely hard to tell the difference between the two unless you have two large tvs sitting side by side.

[lordsmurf]

Fulci, think of a DVD recorder as a VCR replacement.

A tape often has 3 modes. You can use up to that amount. The Lite-On/Apex has the same.

I don't think we can call it a flaw. What can be safely said is that the items were designed to replace a VCR. So it mimiced that setup with 2-, 4- and 6-hour modes. It also has 1-hour modes.

Can the LSI chips do more? Don't know. That may only be its application so far. They may simply operate off prebuilt templates hard coded into some sort of template chips on the processor board.

The Pioneer people obviously wanted their device to be closer to a PC than a VCR in terms of use.

The only real drawback is the price of PIONEER. I think the LiteOn is a bit above it. But you're right, only from fixed-mode POV.

The only knock against APEX is the chasis. I just bought a junked out one online, so I may try to add new drives, fiddle with firmwares, and change out the PSU and other parts. We'll see. Not sure yet.

[junkmalle]

Smurf,

Exactly how long are the Apex's recording modes?

I recall reading somewhere that some DVD recorders record slightly shorter than the claimed times. For example, 2 hour mode might actually record only 1 hour and 55 minutes. This is a problem when using one as a VCR replacement -- you can't record a two hour show in 2 hour mode, you're forced to use 4 hour mode.

[lordsmurf]

1:04:22
2:10:17
4:10:14
6:06:51

These are almost exact. They've never been more than 1 minute off (caused from VBR encodes).

Video tapes are actually very close the same. Tapes go over by a slight amount.

[next]

1:04:22
2:10:17
4:10:14
6:06:51

These are almost exact. They've never been more than 1 minute off (caused from VBR encodes).

Video tapes are actually very close the same. Tapes go over by a slight amount.

Very interesting thread - thanks.

If I wanted to record 2:30 with the Apex would I be forced to use the 4 hour mode? If true it seems a bit limiting from a bit rate perspective.

edit here - sorry I was a bit redundant. I agree with Mr. Coleman after taking the time to read his opinion.

[junkmalle]

Smurf,

Thanks for the recording times. I'm glad to hear they are slightly longer than the claimed times.

My main VCR died so I'm thinking of replacing it with a DVD recorder...

[FulciLives]

One thing that has always sorta bothered me is the bitrate listing for these stand alone DVD recorders.

For instance I often hear that the Panny models do about 5000kbps for the 2 hour mode.

On the Lite-On website they claim that both the LVW-5001 and the new LVW-5005 do 5100kbps for the 2 hour mode.

I know Panny does 256kbps AC-3 audio. I kow the Lite-On also does AC-3 at I would assume the same rate or at the very least 192kbps

So ...

How the HELL do you fit 2 hours on a single DVD-R with that bitrate?

According to the DVDRHELP bitrate calculator you need to use a video bitrate of 4820kbps with an audio bitrate of 256kbps which is close but not a total of 5000kbps and that assums you fill the disc to the brim. I know for a fact that the Panny stand alone DVD recorders stop at around the 4.0GB mark on DVD-R and DVD-RAM ... don't know about other makes though.

It's tempting to get one for TV recording but I dunno man I think I will wait for dual layer stand alone DVD recorders. At least then the 2 hour mode will kick ass even 4 hours should be pretty decent (same as 2 hours now more-or-less) though a 3 hour mode would be perfect on a dual layer DVD (in terms of bitrate AND capacity).

I did hear that SONY is comming out with a new model that will record to the built-in HDD at 15000kbps (that is NOT a typo) and then you can do a 2-pass VBR for the final DVD-R disc! Sounds like the best solution for a stand alone using single layer DVD technology except of course it's from SONY so the price is a bit sickening (talking nose bleed price).

Anyways I stand firm ... I ain't buying a stand alone DVD player that has no options between a 2 hour and 4 hour mode.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

Wanted to share a few jokes just had on the phone:
What if the DVD recorders were cars?

PANASONIC: 4-cylinder engine, fancy chrome wheels with neon lights and hydraulics (useless fancy junk). Early versions had floodlamps instead of headlights (IRE levels).

APEX: V10 engine, tires a little low on pressure so beware of a blowout

LITE-ON 5005: V10 engine, tires fine, body decent. The 5001 forgot to put in oil or ventilation.

JVC: V10 engine, but steering wheel is on the right side

PIONEER: V8 engine, drives great, expensive. Has SUV models too.

SONY: V8 engine, drives great, expensive.

TOSHIBA: V8 engine, SUV but back doors won't open

SHARP: V8 engine, square wheels

CYBERHOME: V6 engine, tires fell off while leaving lot

MUSTEK: V6 engine, square wheels

POLAROID: engine still unknown, hood was welded shut and the wheels fell off while leaving lot

:P

[lordsmurf]

@FULCI:

1:04:22 = 720x480 MPEG2 8.0 VBR DC10, AC3 256k 2/0 (need to verify video)
2:10:17 = 720x480 MPEG2 5.5 VBR DC10, AC3 256k 2/0
4:10:14 = 352x480 MPEG2 2.5 VBR DC10, AC3 256k 2/0
6:06:51 = 352x240 MPEG2 1.5 VBR DC10 deinterlaced, AC3 256k 2/0 (need to verify audio)

[FulciLives]

@FULCI:

1:04:22 = 720x480 MPEG2 8.0 VBR DC10, AC3 256k 2/0 (need to verify video)
2:10:17 = 720x480 MPEG2 5.5 VBR DC10, AC3 256k 2/0
4:10:14 = 352x480 MPEG2 2.5 VBR DC10, AC3 256k 2/0
6:06:51 = 352x240 MPEG2 1.5 VBR DC10 deinterlaced, AC3 256k 2/0 (need to verify audio)

Well that's great but it doesn't exactly "add up" with a bitrate calculator now does it???

duh I'm confused hehehe

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[next]

[quote="FulciLives"]

@FULCI:

1:04:22 = 720x480 MPEG2 8.0 VBR DC10, AC3 256k 2/0 (need to verify video)
2:10:17 = 720x480 MPEG2 5.5 VBR DC10, AC3 256k 2/0
4:10:14 = 352x480 MPEG2 2.5 VBR DC10, AC3 256k 2/0
6:06:51 = 352x240 MPEG2 1.5 VBR DC10 deinterlaced, AC3 256k 2/0 (need to verify audio)

Well that's great but it doesn't exactly "add up" with a bitrate calculator now does it???

duh I'm confused hehehe

- John "FulciLives" Coleman[/quote

Perhaps the Apex is the first dual layer recorder. If so its the best kept secret in the history of the industry. My math takes it to between 8 and 9 per disc.

[lordsmurf]

The DC10 can make some of the difference, and there is no telling what kind of custom IPB or matrices are in use on these chips. All of this would affect the file size to some degree.

And yes, I think you messed up some math. That should be correct numbers, regardless of the custom things that could exist.

[next]

The DC10 can make some of the difference, and there is no telling what kind of custom IPB or matrices are in use on these chips. All of this would affect the file size to some degree.

My head is starting to hurt.....again.

[lordsmurf]

My head is starting to hurt.....again.

If you want to make my head hurt, let's talk about digital<->analog resolution equivalancies, as well as discuss the relevance as it relates to ratios and ideas like Kell. I think that sentence alone made it start to throb a bit.

Or the RGB/YUV setting in TMPGENC that nobody can ever decide on how to use.

Or just toss an anvil at me.

[next]

My head is starting to hurt.....again.

If you want to make my head hurt, let's talk about digital<->analog resolution equivalancies, as well as discuss the relevance as it relates to ratios and ideas like Kell. I think that sentence alone made it start to throb a bit.

Or the RGB/YUV setting in TMPGENC that nobody can ever decide on how to use.

Or just toss an anvil at me.

Sorry Smurf. My comment was not directed to you. It was more directed to bit rate calculations. Still makes my head hurt.

[FulciLives]

If you want to make my head hurt ...
Or the RGB/YUV setting in TMPGENC that nobody can ever decide on how to use.

Output YUV data as Basic YCbCr not CCIR601

The horror ...

The horror ...



At least figuring out "do not frame rate conversion" was easy enough.

I don't think Stephen Hawkings can figure out THE dreaded option above ... to check or not to check ... I said *uck it myself and use CCE now

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[next]

If you want to make my head hurt ...
Or the RGB/YUV setting in TMPGENC that nobody can ever decide on how to use.

Output YUV data as Basic YCbCr not CCIR601

The horror ...

The horror ...



At least figuring out "do not frame rate conversion" was easy enough.

I don't think Stephen Hawkings can figure out THE dreaded option above ... to check or not to check ... I said *uck it myself and use CCE now

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

The horror! Great movie. It looks alot better with the flex record feature. Mr. Wells would agree.

[junkmalle]

Output YUV data as Basic YCbCr not CCIR601

The horror ...

It's quite simple actually. In a YUV system with 8 bits per component each component can have values from 0 to 255. But not all possible values are consistent with the CCIR601 spec. The spec requires that the Y (intensity, the B/W portion of the picture) be limited to 16 to 235; the U and V values (colors) must be between 16 and 240. Exceeding those values can result in unpredictable behaviour of the picture.

[BJ_M]

Output YUV data as Basic YCbCr not CCIR601

The horror ...

It's quite simple actually. In a YUV system with 8 bits per component each component can have values from 0 to 255. But not all possible values are consistent with the CCIR601 spec. The spec requires that the Y (intensity, the B/W portion of the picture) be limited to 16 to 235; the U and V values (colors) must be between 16 and 240. Exceeding those values can result in unpredictable behaviour of the picture.

that part everyone knows -- the question is if its checked or not because the statement is something like a double negitive


or in some versions of CCE - how to set field order , or some settings in canopus relating to pulldown make no much sense what so ever ...

all of these very good products came out japan, though i'm sure there is no correlation there ..

[junkmalle]

that part everyone knows

Ah, point taken.

[BJ_M]

that part everyone knows

Ah, point taken.

its also different in japan adding to the mystery (if there is one for some) ..

you don't clamp for there - even though they are on NTSC also ..

[zorankarapancev]

Go here: https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=207122