multi-menu multi-track VCD authoring

[Nerk01]

ok here's a problem for you authoring masters out there:
(using TSCV to author,fireburner to burn)

when i did just main menu,chapter menu, video i could move from chapter to chapter by hitting next/previous
I moved on to finding trailers and insert CD2 clips(my DVD player doesnt like the extro so i just add the insert CD2 clip as another track and tell the last chapter to go to it next) after doing these type of authorings i can hit next on the first chapter but no other chapters(all the controls lock up except eject disc) once it hits the end of the movie it goes to the third chapter, then again when it hits the end of the movie it goes to the fouth chapter, and so on. Any suggestions? Is it a bug in TSCV maybe? Or do i need to get my hands dirty and do the xml myself?

[vitualis]

Time to free yourself from the shackles of a GUI and author the XML yourself...

Try this: http://www.geocities.com/medinotes/vcd/chapters.html

It sounds like your "chapters" have been authored with <timeout> linking to the wrong place and the <loop> jump-timing setting on "delayed" rather than "immediate".

Regards.

[Nerk01]

Here is a copy of the last movie I put together, see anything I am doing wrong?

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE videocd PUBLIC "-//GNU//DTD VideoCD//EN" "http://www.gnu.org/software/vcdimager/videocd.dtd">
<videocd xmlns="http://www.gnu.org/software/vcdimager/1.0/" class="vcd" version="2.0">
<info>
<album-id></album-id>
<volume-count>1</volume-count>
<volume-number>1</volume-number>
<restriction>0</restriction>
</info>
<pvd>
<volume-id>FROM_DUSK_TIL_DAWN_DISC_ONE</volume-id>
<system-id>CD-RTOS CD-BRIDGE</system-id>
<application-id>CDI/CDI_VCD.APP;1</application-id>
<preparer-id>vcdxbuild (GNU VCDImager) 0.7.11</preparer-id>
<publisher-id>TSCV08R1</publisher-id>
</pvd>
<filesystem>
<folder>
<name>CDI</name>
<file src="E:\TSCV08r1\CDI\cdi_imag.rtf" format="mixed">
<name>CDI_IMAG.RTF</name>
</file>
<file src="E:\TSCV08r1\CDI\cdi_text.fnt">
<name>CDI_TEXT.FNT</name>
</file>
<file src="E:\TSCV08r1\CDI\cdi_vcd.app">
<name>CDI_VCD.APP</name>
</file>
</folder>
</filesystem>
<segment-items>
<segment-item src="E:\menu.mpv" id="menu-0"/>
</segment-items>
<sequence-items>
<sequence-item src="E:\anim-1.mpg" id="intro"/>
<sequence-item src="E:\chap.mpv" id="menu-1"/>
<sequence-item src="E:\From Dusk Til Dawn VCDone.mpg" id="sequence-1">
<default-entry id="entry1-0"/>
<entry id="entry1-1">600.000</entry>
<entry id="entry1-2">1200.000</entry>
<entry id="entry1-3">1800.000</entry>
<entry id="entry1-4">2400.000</entry>
<entry id="entry1-5">3000.000</entry>
</sequence-item>
<sequence-item src="E:\vcddisc2.mpg" id="sequence-2">
<default-entry id="entry2-0"/>
</sequence-item>
</sequence-items>
<pbc>
<selection id="intro-0">
<next ref="smenu-0"/>
<timeout ref="smenu-0"/>
<wait>0</wait>
<loop jump-timing="delayed">1</loop>
<play-item ref="intro"/>
</selection>
<selection id="smenu-0">
<bsn>1</bsn>
<prev ref="intro-0"/>
<next ref="selection-m1-0"/>
<return ref="endlist"/>
<default ref="smenu-1"/>
<wait>-1</wait>
<loop jump-timing="delayed">1</loop>
<play-item ref="menu-0"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-0"/>
<select ref="smenu-1"/>
</selection>
<selection id="smenu-1">
<bsn>1</bsn>
<prev ref="smenu-0"/>
<next ref="selection-m1-0"/>
<return ref="smenu-0"/>
<default ref="selection-m1-0"/>
<timeout ref="smenu-1"/>
<wait>0</wait>
<loop jump-timing="immediate">1</loop>
<play-item ref="menu-1"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-0"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-1"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-2"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-3"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-4"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-5"/>
</selection>
<selection id="selection-m1-0">
<bsn>1</bsn>
<prev ref="smenu-0"/>
<next ref="selection-m1-1"/>
<return ref="smenu-0"/>
<timeout ref="smenu-1"/>
<wait>1</wait>
<loop jump-timing="immediate">1</loop>
<play-item ref="sequence-1"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-0"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-1"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-2"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-3"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-4"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-5"/>
</selection>
<selection id="selection-m1-1">
<bsn>1</bsn>
<prev ref="selection-m1-0"/>
<next ref="selection-m1-2"/>
<return ref="smenu-1"/>
<timeout ref="endlist"/>
<wait>1</wait>
<loop jump-timing="delayed">1</loop>
<play-item ref="entry1-1"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-0"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-1"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-2"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-3"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-4"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-5"/>
</selection>
<selection id="selection-m1-2">
<bsn>1</bsn>
<prev ref="selection-m1-1"/>
<next ref="selection-m1-3"/>
<return ref="smenu-1"/>
<timeout ref="endlist"/>
<wait>1</wait>
<loop jump-timing="delayed">1</loop>
<play-item ref="entry1-2"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-0"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-1"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-2"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-3"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-4"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-5"/>
</selection>
<selection id="selection-m1-3">
<bsn>1</bsn>
<prev ref="selection-m1-2"/>
<next ref="selection-m1-4"/>
<return ref="smenu-1"/>
<timeout ref="endlist"/>
<wait>1</wait>
<loop jump-timing="delayed">1</loop>
<play-item ref="entry1-3"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-0"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-1"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-2"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-3"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-4"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-5"/>
</selection>
<selection id="selection-m1-4">
<bsn>1</bsn>
<prev ref="selection-m1-3"/>
<next ref="selection-m1-5"/>
<return ref="smenu-1"/>
<timeout ref="endlist"/>
<wait>1</wait>
<loop jump-timing="delayed">1</loop>
<play-item ref="entry1-4"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-0"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-1"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-2"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-3"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-4"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-5"/>
</selection>
<selection id="selection-m1-5">
<bsn>1</bsn>
<prev ref="selection-m1-4"/>
<next ref="selection-m2-0"/>
<return ref="smenu-1"/>
<timeout ref="endlist"/>
<wait>1</wait>
<loop jump-timing="delayed">1</loop>
<play-item ref="entry1-5"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-0"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-1"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-2"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-3"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-4"/>
<select ref="selection-m1-5"/>
</selection>
<selection id="selection-m2-0">
<bsn>1</bsn>
<next ref="endlist"/>
<return ref="smenu-0"/>
<timeout ref="selection-m2-0"/>
<wait>1</wait>
<loop jump-timing="immediate">1</loop>
<play-item ref="sequence-2"/>
<select ref="selection-m2-0"/>
</selection>
<endlist id="endlist"/>
</pbc>
</videocd>

[vitualis]

Look, it's almost impossible to read the XML like this (no spaces)...

However, I can already see a number of mistakes...

1. In every instance where you have the word "delayed", it should be changed to "immediate"
2. Any time a <selection> that doesn't loop or wait indefinitely, you must set a <timeout>
3. Also, one of your <sequence-item> was named chap.mpv? I hope that this isn't just an elemental video stream because you can't put these on a VCD as a <sequence-item>

I take it TSCV made this? The code is messy and it's somewhat difficult to tell what's doing what.

I suggest you read the chaptering article I wrote before. That is part of a series of articles which included an article on mpeg still images, and simple and complex menus. These may be of use to you.

I should also mention that the mpeg "still images" that TSCV makes aren't very good quality...

Regards.

[Nerk01]

I've been doing the hi-res still images myself using paint and tmpgenc then having TSCV patch it, i'm gonna dig into your guides sometime this week, maybe i'll be able to salvage some of that xml code

[ya_jai]

I have to disagree with you this time vitualis.

Till now I have made many (S)VCDs with entrypoints and menu using TSCV to create platform on my XML.
At least 3-4 movies I've done with movie clip menu, movie clip chapter selections (rip from DVD)and insert disc two which also movie clip (not mpeg still) and special feature such as deleted scenes, music video etc. All I've done with TSCV (of course just for XML platform).

I know you help so many ppl in this forum including myself in so many cases and I'm really thankful for that. But with your opinion with TSCV I'd disagree.

TSCV helps to creat first step of XML. This is really helpful for all newbies who don't know about XML code including me. And you don't have to type everything yourself. If you want more feature out of VCDimager, of course you have to edit or add some code in xml and it's managale.

I remember that I have problems before with XML created by TSCV but that because I didn't know enough of xml code. But after a while that I tested and experienced with XML code now I can make it to work as I want it to.

I'm a newbie too and still learning as much as I can to make a perfect (S)VCD. And again thanks for all your help to other ppl and sorry that I sound rude this time.

[vitualis]

ya_jai,

What exactly are you disagreeing with??

I agree that TSCV is good for newbies or for those people not inclined to be bothered with the intricasies of how a VCD works or how XML works.

However, I have enough experience also to know that it ISN'T that good for complex structures (which if done on a regular basis WOULD require knowledge of both the functioning of a VCD and XML). You stated that you've made 3 or 4 VCDs with menus, entrypoints, special features, etc. Well I've made easily over 50. I put ALL that stuff on my DVD rips now. With TSCV (or any GUI) it becomes a logistic nightmare making sure all the links go the right places.

If you read my article (in the conclusion) I detail why.

How long does it take you to create a very complex structure from scratch with TSCV?

It takes me no more than 10 or 15 minutes to have the complete XML done manually. Why? Because if you edit it yourself, you can copy large sections of your PAST S/VCDs XMLs into your new project. I barely have to type anything new myself at all. All I have to do is to change a few file names.

For example, say I make a multi-disc volume (e.g., 2 disc VCD DVD rip) that has menus, chapters, scene select, the works. Unless there are disc space limitations, I would put all the special features on both discs. With TSCV alone, you would have to author almost the same structure twice for both discs. If you edit it yourself, the second disc is a near carbon copy of the first. You just have to change a few source file names and adjust the entrypoints +/- chaptering structure. It's less than 2 minutes worth of editing.

Ultimately, if you want full customisation, you have to end up editing the XML yourself anyway. None of the GUIs (except perhaps ?VCDComposer) really act as an XML editor. I believe that if you write your own XML (you really only have to do it once or twice and then its just cut and paste) it ends up being FASTER than using TSCV.

Furthermore, when you create your own XML files, you an name things in a logical way... I found the XML file posted (e.g., on this page) VERY difficult to follow because all the id names are coded.

Regards.

_________________
Michael Tam

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: vitualis on 2001-11-05 22:01:35 ]</font>

[Rico]

As writer of one of the GNU VCDImager GUIs, I feel the need to step in here .

IMHO a GUI should never be regarded as a replacement to "handmade" stuff, but rather as a compliment. As such it can be more or less high-level (i.e. hide the underlying part more or less). And it can also choose to implement more or less of the features the underlying application have. It should be an aid and not a prison, unless You want it to...

In the end, I've found the combination of the two to be the best thing (I'm not talking VCD-XML here, but more generally speaking), where You let the GUI do the boring tedious stuff for You and add the "spice" by hand...

Oh, and when You can reload a previously created XML-file it is really easy to use the GUI to replace all the things You've mentioned above, and getting help to maintain all the links and stuff. As a working programmer I have done my fair share of cut'n'paste stuff, enough to see both the ups and downs of it...

This apart some things in the answers above confuse me:

---
2. Any time a <selection> that doesn't loop or wait indefinitely, you must set a <timeout>
---

I was under the impression that if no <timeout> was given one of the <select ...> is chosen randomly?

Regards,
Rico

[ya_jai]

Like I said, I'm just a newbie so how can I compare to your knowledge for all things. I have made only a couple movies with full feature but all those have done under TSCV xml code. And of couse I have to get my havd dirty a little bit with xml code but still from the scratch of xml created by TSCV.

Let say about my movie, in first disc I have only, menu, chapters, main movie, and insert disc two. The 2nd disc, will be all of those include deleted scenes, thetrical tailer, and credit. So my both xmls would be a lot different, right? How long does it take? Humm only a couple minute for each edited-xml file. I agree that you can not name each mpeg but it's not a really big deal, isn't it.

The things that I disageeed with you are things that you said such as "Time to free yourself from the shackles of a GUI and author the XML yourself... " and "I take it TSCV made this? The code is messy and it's somewhat difficult to tell what's doing what. " You can help ppl about XML by tell them what went wrong or how to correct it, but you don't have to mention who created it, would you?

I know that you are the pioneer of XML file for VCDimager. But without all the GUIs of VCDImager, I don't think VCDimager would become as popular as it is right now. Don't you agree? So thanks go to "hvr" "you" and all "GUIs".

I really agree with you Rico about " Let GUIs do the boring stuffs " . that's a good one.

So anyway, Vitualis I think I will end this post because it's not helping the first who posted this topic. Just wanna let you know that I still respect you and appriciate all the helps you give to ppl.

[vitualis]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-11-06 04:08:38, Rico wrote:
IMHO a GUI should never be regarded as a replacement to "handmade" stuff, but rather as a compliment. As such it can be more or less high-level (i.e. hide the underlying part more or less). And it can also choose to implement more or less of the features the underlying application have. It should be an aid and not a prison, unless You want it to...</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

My sentiments exactly. I tip my hat at you.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>2. Any time a <selection> that doesn't loop or wait indefinitely, you must set a <timeout> </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

You are of course right. I just didn't want to confuse the issue because most people don't even know about the random thing.

<selection> that doesn't loop or wait indefinitely, but has <select> settings will randomly go to one of the choices.

<selection> that doesn't loop or wait indefinitely and has NO <select> settings --> hung player!

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>"Time to free yourself from the shackles of a GUI and author the XML yourself... "</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Note the smiley face on the original post. It was meant to be taken humorously!

I think you and I agree more on this than you realise. BTW, no need to placate me with compliments (though they're welcome). I'm not at all offended.

Regards.