Very Bad VHS Tape

[BeanCounter]

I'm attempting to capture a 23 year old videotape. The source is very bad, with shifting colors, frames where the top part of the screen is shifted off screen, and lots of waviness in the picture. Normally I can capture with very few drops, but this video dropped about 10% of frames. I'm not so much concerning about the large amount of drops as I am getting a quality picture from the frames that remain. Remarkably, there are no video/audio sync issues even with that many drops.

My system seems to work best with VirtualVCR. Can anyone recommend any solutions to getting a better capture or cleaning up the picture after the capture, or is this a lost cause?

[lordsmurf]

I'm attempting to capture a 23 year old videotape. The source is very bad, with shifting colors, frames where the top part of the screen is shifted off screen, and lots of waviness in the picture. Normally I can capture with very few drops, but this video dropped about 10% of frames. I'm not so much concerning about the large amount of drops as I am getting a quality picture from the frames that remain. Remarkably, there are no video/audio sync issues even with that many drops.

My system seems to work best with VirtualVCR. Can anyone recommend any solutions to getting a better capture or cleaning up the picture after the capture, or is this a lost cause?

You'll need to have pro video playback hardware for this tape, not software. It's expensive to do, and quite time consuming, especially if you're new.

People like myself also offer services for converting and restoring the video. This may be the best way for you to go when it's just a few tapes at most.

[SatStorm]

Yes, this sound like a job for a professional. Needs great equipment for the best possible results.

Anyway, just in case you wish to try it yourself, the first thing you need, is a TBC. A good one, cost more than 200$ those days...
The TBC sometimes helps in various things for you the NTSC users, but one reason you certainly need it is because it helps capture the most possible fields / frames at your PC .
So, in practice, if without a TBC you drop 10% frames, with a TBC you drop 4% frames or less (some times, no frames at all). This is a huge improvement as a start, even if it doesn't shows first look.

Then, you need to filter a LOT your avi, using really advance technics. This proccess is slow and for a 3 hours tape, it might take even days with a typical mediocre PC...

In short terms, you have two choices: Use virtualdub or use avisynth. Both choices are equal in results, but: With virtualdub you have a GUI inviroment to work with and a preview fuction. With avisynth you have speed (many times faster virtualdub) and ready scripts from advance users, which may - or may not - help you, depending how lucky you are. As you imagined, avisynth is a command line like application, so you need to study it a bit before you try it.

Personally I use virtualdub, so I can suggest filters and technicks for this application only.

Try this:

Deinterlace unfold (that seperates the fields)
Video DeNoise ( rise the default values about 2%)
Static Noise Reduction ( 10 )
Frame Merger ( 3 )
Temporal Smoother ( 4 )
Deinterlace fold (that restore interlace)

and see how it ends up.

Good luck!

[spectroelectro]

Gimme a break. Pro hardware? Cheez.
I captured a 25-year-old videotape last week. Turned
out great. Used a Toshiba M785 and an AVT 8710
timebase corrector. Running the little sucker through
VDub with a light setting of Temporal Smoother cleaned
it right up.
You don't need pro playback hardware, just a decent
VCR with digital video noise reduction and a time base
corrector and VirtualDubMod.

[SatStorm]

It doesn't have to do with the age of the tapes, but with the condition they are or the quality of the media...
Store for example an 8 years old, mediocre quality, VHS tape, for five long years in a selve near a speaker, and that tape is really fucked up in a point that you need really advance skill just to make it watchable...

For example, I have VHS recordings from 1979 and I can capture them without TBC and with no framedrops with a typical bt8xxx card. I have perfect picture, amazing results, I don't even have to filter them!
Those simply tapes prooves that the magnetic media can hold much more that we think.

But I also have a 6 year old VHS tape, which is in a real bad shape, totally fucked up condition, and the tape - the media - is of a so low quality, I don't understand how I bought that shit back then and dare to record something to it, having in mind to store it for a later view...
Today I can't even capture the half frames from that shit in any typical or advance way using my semi pro equipment! I had to rend for a day a high end VCR, a proffesional TBC and capture the tape at 2/3 of the speed just to make the picture watchable! Then I had to add tons of filters to clean all kind of noises you can imagine, speed it up to realtime and do some other advance stuff, which for a typical user looks like a voodoo magic!

Really fucked up tapes need more than a good VCR with TBC and couple of freeware programs, believe me....

[lordsmurf]

Gimme a break. Pro hardware? Cheez.
I captured a 25-year-old videotape last week. Turned
out great. Used a Toshiba M785 and an AVT 8710
timebase corrector. Running the little sucker through
VDub with a light setting of Temporal Smoother cleaned
it right up.
You don't need pro playback hardware, just a decent
VCR with digital video noise reduction and a time base
corrector and VirtualDubMod.

You've just listed out several hundred dollars of equipment, most of which qualifies as pro-sumer hardware.

[macleod]

Another suggestion would be to get a standalone dvd recorder (the panny has a built in TBC) and a good VCR (also with a TBC). Its probably gonna be your best bet IMO.

[SatStorm]

Hi macleod

Sorry, but IMHO there is no way! From what I read this Panasonic is an amazing piece of hardware, but I doubt that it can help a situation like this.

If the tape is so fucked up, only pro equipment and heavy advance filtering can help it...

[mazinz]

you know what though in a case like yours is where a homedeck recorder can save the day.

The panasonics do have some form of a tbc installed and on one tape of mine it has correct the picture shift at the top of the screen. I also have some workprints of films that border on being unwatchable and they still record fine (this also goes for when i ran my films through the panny for it's tbc and then into my capture card)

In your case it would work (at least to get it digitized without a problem) because the machine's record on the fly.

I would still recommend a super vhs deck, a tbc and a nice capture card and you should be ok. Or get a homdeck recorder and then copy that file from the disc made onto your pc and go from there

[macleod]

I have seen my panny do a job on older tapes. Granted, it sounds like the tape in question is in bad shape (road hard and put away wet). The panny has the built in TBC (dont know comparisons to other TBC's) and again, its done a great job on one of my tapes that sat in about 3 feet of Mississippi mud (course the vcr helped on that).

Not that I am recommending this, wink, wink, nudge, nudge, but go to your local store and pick up one of the panny's and take 'er for a test run with this tape and see what you think. If it does it. GREAT. buy it. If not return it and say that it didnt serve your needs.

Also, you might want to look at a better VCR. It is possible that the wavy lines and the other stuff are coming from the VCR. I just have mississippi mud experience and switching to a 4 head vcr (JVC model) made a world of difference.

[SatStorm]

Well, I get your word on this! I can't see myself what this amazing panasonic standalone recorder can do with really bad VHS tapes, but from what you - and other users - report, is an amazing piece of hardware that do marvels...

[BeanCounter]

Thanks for all the help, especially the suggestions on using VirtualDub filters. That helped the color shifting and graininess quite a bit, at a cost of a slightly blurry picture. The filters did not help with the waviness and shifting in the video however. I suppose that's where the TBC hardware would help. When I'm ready for my next VCR purchase I'll look for that feature, but as of now I'm not willing to spend that kind of money for this particular video.

[chaseru]

The filters did not help with the waviness and shifting in the video however. I suppose that's where the TBC hardware would help.

Was the tape recorded in extended play EP format? These tapes can be particularly difficult to capture. Also, the waviness could be tracking errors. Have you tried to manually adjust the tracking on your current VCR to see if the picture improves? Newer consumer VCRs usually have manual tracking adjustment via the remote - check the manual for the keys to press since they are often not shown on the remote.

[TheFamilyMan]

Has anyone had any experience with this product -

http://www.darvision.com/mfiltersa/index.shtml

Looks like this could do a lot for restoring a messed up source. I have no idea the cost, their link for USA online sales is dead..and maybe also is this product?

[mpojeep]

Hi TheFamilyMan,

I have one of these and it did not help with my situation(same problem as the original poster).It has a TBC but I don't think it's as good as a standalone TBC.It's good in cleaning up video noise though.
Can any of you recommend a good TBC(standalone) for around $500.00

Thanks!

[mpojeep]

By the way ,this is where I bought it:

http://www.visiblelight.com/mall/productview.aspx?cat=105&pid=14

[BeanCounter]

Yep, the videotape was recorded as SLP - super long play. Apparently 23 years ago, my wife thought it was a good idea to cram 8 hours onto a videotape. And to make matters worse, this is probably a 3rd generation copy. I love a challenge.

[WuphonsReach]

Try this:

Deinterlace unfold (that seperates the fields)
Video DeNoise ( rise the default values about 2%)
Static Noise Reduction ( 10 )
Frame Merger ( 3 )
Temporal Smoother ( 4 )
Deinterlace fold (that restore interlace)

How does that stack up against the "2D Cleaner" filter? (or "Smart Smoother High Quality")?

[SatStorm]

Just test to see yourself. All those filters are free, you don't have to pay anything to try them. Neither you have to waste time: Virtualdub has a preview fuction. So you just try the compinations I suggest, the compinations you usually use, the compinations others suggest and choose what you like best

[mmasw]

People like myself also offer services for converting and restoring the video .

ok, here's the issue:

I have a homemade video from about 20 years ago when my wife looked pretty damn good.

What I want to do is send you my wife so you can restore her. Don't send her back till you do.

[DVWannaB]

Try this:

Deinterlace unfold (that seperates the fields)
Video DeNoise ( rise the default values about 2%)
Static Noise Reduction ( 10 )
Frame Merger ( 3 )
Temporal Smoother ( 4 )
Deinterlace fold (that restore interlace)

How does that stack up against the "2D Cleaner" filter? (or "Smart Smoother High Quality")?

Can someone email me the Smart Smoother High Quality zip file? It seems they (whoever "they" are) pulled the plug on the neuron2.net site.

email to: digitalvideo2000@hotmail.com

Thanks much.

[DVWannaB]

WuphonsReach,

Many thanks, for the quick follow-up. I am going to test it out tonight.

Cheers.

[divx2vcd]

Hi I Have The Same Problem As Mention Below.:

I'm attempting to capture a 23 year old videotape. The source is very bad, with shifting colors, frames where the top part of the screen is shifted off screen, and lots of waviness in the picture. Normally I can capture with very few drops, but this video dropped about 10% of frames. I'm not so much concerning about the large amount of drops as I am getting a quality picture from the frames that remain. Remarkably, there are no video/audio sync issues even with that many drops.

But with my case I have VHS Tape that are covered with FUNGUS. How
to remove them is there any technique. I also play few of them in my VHS
player after playing for about 5 Minutes the VHS Player Head get stuck.

Then I play them on my VCP it plays well but the problem of TRECKING comes, Jumping and all sort of problems while playing those cassetes.

I have CANOPUS DVSTROM SE card intalled how can I better be use that
card in resolving these kind of problems. I have tried many things & tricks
to resolve but not get those results which I am expecting.

What would you prefer please send your serious replies at.:
email to: dvedit@digitalvideoediting.net

Regards

[WuphonsReach]

SatStorm's filter chain, with links (corrections? I think I found the right websites...):

Deinterlace, Unfold (built-in to VDub)

Video DeNoise (seems to work in RGB mode):
http://www.risingresearch.com/en/denoise/index.shtml

Static Noise Reduction:
(not 100% sure this is the right link)
http://www.shdon.com/view.php?doc=vid_snr

Frame Merger:
http://www.geocities.com/gc_timsara/vdub/fm/framemerger0.1.htm
http://www.geocities.com/gc_timsara/vdub/fm/framemerger0.1.zip

Temporal Smoother (built-in to VDub)

Deinterlace, Fold (built-in to VDub)

... and a quick-n-dirty comparison page:
http://www.wuphonsreach.org/blog/Video/B5SampleMar2004/

[SatStorm]

You can't exactly judge by static pictures, you have to see the motion and how "stable" the picture is. It is not only about the smoothing you know (if it was so easy, we would all use that built in smoother filter).
The reason I don't use much 2D Cleaner is because makes faces look like plastic.
Also, I search ways to bypass Temporal smoother because makes a bad effect on motion.
Last, but not least, I wish to use dynamic noise reduction, at a less possible value. It makes a "curtain" effect if you use it with the default settings, and I don't like that effect at all.

Anyway, since that post, I did plenty tests with this "frame merger" filter. I really like it, but it seems that the "3" mark is a bit too strong. Never use propagadion also.
Temporal smoother is neccessary only when the source has great differents between the frames (jumping fields, zig zag lines etc).

For a normal source, a good combination of filters goes like this

rmPAL (if you use PAL)
Deinterlace unfold
Video DeNoise ( rise the default values about 2% - Of course you use this filter only if your source is VHS / SVHS )
Static Noise Reduction ( 10 - If you have mosquito noise because of the aerial reception, rise it up to 24, but not more, blurs a lot the picture after 16 )
Dynamic Noise reduction ( 8 - never higher, it makes a bad motion effect higher. This filter unfortunatelly is always neccessary, because stablise the picture)
Frame Merger ( 2 - rise to 3 only if the source is really bad and 4 when it is fucked uped )
Sharpness (16)
Deinterlace fold (that restore interlace)

Of course each source needs different adjustments. There is no way to set it up once and for all.

The last week, I play with Exorcist and VHS flaxen (I use it only for colour sifting). This combination, can eliminate ghosting and if you eliminate ghosting before the other filters, you don't have to use them with so high values, or at all!

Isn't an excited and never ending hobby, or not?

[SatStorm]

Also, judgin' from the picture of your source, the filters I suggest for that case are:

rmPAL (if you are PAL)
Deinterlace unfold
Video DeNoise ( default values )
Static Noise Reduction ( 8 )
Dynamic Noise reduction ( 8 )
Frame Merger ( 2 )
Sharpness (16)
Deinterlace fold (that restore interlace)

That way, it gonna clean the picture, stableze it for better encoding, and won't mess up with the motion and the interlace.
Also, you can frameserve it, direct to your encoder. When we use temporal based filters we can't do this

[frugalbrutus]

pardon my newbie-ness here, but just in case...
Have you checked that there are no magnetic interferences near your VCR, like DON'T HAVE YOUR MONITOR (or TV) on top of the VCR or even very close to it. Even a few feet spacing can make quite a difference, especially on the more "sensitive" tapes.

[SatStorm]

@frugalbrutus: Welcome to the forum. Sure, anything can interfere with his case, but good cables and a ground enviroment can eliminate most of those issues.

@WuphonsReach: Just to add one more thing : The chain I suggested to BeanCounter is for a real bad (totally **** up) source. Your source is not **** up. It is noisy. So, you need other kind of filters, not time axis based.

[WuphonsReach]

Playing with actual conversions now (thanks for the new filter hints)... I grid out static images to get an idea of what the filter is doing. That clip is from back when Babylon5 first aired and is at least a 2nd generation copy (VHS, LP mode).

Static Noise Reduction filter is a very nice filter, very fast to boot. That one definitely goes in my toolkit. Easy to see what it's doing and I'll have to throw some mosquito noise footage at it.

I think I missed a link earlier for the Dynamic Noise Reduction filter (also missing when I tested the filter chain):
http://www.shdon.com/section.php?section=vid#dnr

Video DeNoise - tough filter to use? I'm still trying to figure out when/where to use it as I don't seem to see the effect.

Still mucking with the others to see what I like or what they do. Mostly I work with SVHS source, so it's pretty clean.

When I use 2D Cleaner, it's with a really light touch (setting 5 or 10, radius 2 or 3)... I've got some early attempts with Smoother where everything went "muddy" (maybe what you call "plastic").

[vcdforme]

Right now I've got a 20 year old vhs going on my TV. Totally unwatchable. Picture is rolling, tumbling, and jerking. Yopu cannot watch this. But.....
run the VCR thru my Samsung R4000 (Panny E-50) and into the computer.
Looks perfect. The tbc's built into the standalones are amazing.
Don't knock it unless you've seen it.