Ethical Question

[JasonK]

it's a control issue - in broadcast, the broadcaster has control; in a rental situation, you control when you go to the store to rent the disc.

And you control if you copy it and when you watch the copy. Of course, myself and others here are going to tell you that you should not copy the rentals, even on a temporary basis. But you can bet this is becoming more and more common for a few reasons:

1) Cheap DVD Media
2) DVD Burners becoming less and less expensive $under 70
4) Easy to use DVD backup software that any moron can use. Us long-timers use to have to do it the hard way, but now anyone can do it.

You think DVD Xcopy was dragged into court because they didnt want people making backups of their own personal movies? I'm sure they were more concerned about them copying every movie they rent.

[djelimon]

Here's a scenario: I back up my movies.

My brother in law wants to watch them. Can I lend him the originals?

He would like some backups of his originals, and I think he has some good movies. Can I back up his movies for him? Can I borrow his originals?

Do we need to keep an audit trail of the purchase of our DVD's, or is having access to the originals enough (ie, should the Mounties come busting in, do I just have to fetch my originals off my brother in law by court date)?

Is there some sort of time limit for how long my brother can borrow my original (assuming he can)?

[djelimon]

I also agree that talking about backing up rented stuff or whatever, outside of fair use laws, is counterproductive. Respect the protocol of the site, its existance is a big favour by the people running it to tthe general community, and it behooves us to respect their wishes.

[Hardcoreruss]

By the time you have backed up and burnt, you could of watched it !!!!

[fritzi93]

As jimmalenko points out (if I may paraphrase), many people come here and as soon as they learn how to "backup" DVDS, you never hear from them again. The astonishing thing is, yes, some are dumb enough to let slip the fact that the DVDs are not their property. The rules of this site are plain enough, aren't they?

The owner of this site, and I'd venture to say, most members that stick around, subscribe to the "Fair Use" doctrine. Every time someone advocates piracy, etc., it strengthens the anti-Fair Use argument. Opponents can say: "See, Fair Use is all bogus, look how many admit to piracy, even on a site ostensibly against piracy". This puts Baldrick and many others in an uncomfortable position, but especially Baldrick.

What some people can't get through their thick skulls is NOT everyone is interested in "backing up" Blockbuster. Idiots who blab about it, brag about it, endanger the rights of others. What if it is FIRMLY established that breaking encryption is illegal, even for DVDs you own? Or what if developers of the software we all use and love, are in future to be considered criminals?

Quite apart from all that, many habitues of this forum are into home-movies. I'd venture to say also that most old-timers just love the hobby. They get the same pleasure from a difficult project that some folks get from doing the NY Times crossword puzzle in ink.

One final point, I'm coming around to the belief that perhaps the Mods are too lenient on occasion. (This thread has some egregious posts.) But I don't envy the Mods having to make sometimes difficult judgements.

[djelimon]

Actually, I also engage in mrtial arts, and a friend wants me to help him slap together an instructional DVD. So I do have other interests here besides backing up my DVD's.

[wings]

To Supreme2k,

I never insulted or called anyone names. So don't tell me to STFU. This is an open forum and yes I donated not once but twice to this site so I have a right as long as I don't break the rules and call people names etc.

[jimmalenko]

As jimmalenko points out (if I may paraphrase)...

No, you may not. There is implied copyright to my statement (which I wanted to encrypt but couldn't find a way) and each reproduction of this will require a money trail back to me

Sorry guys, wrong thread.

Can I make a suggestion that scenarios and ethics be left off the forum ? It always results in fisti-cuffs.

[zworg2]

What you do is your choice, but do not have the sheer audacity and arrogance to assume others do the same as you.

Don't you just love the automatic tool link feature?

I worry that if I leave my dvdidle, I will not be able to do a blindwrite. I also wonder what people think is the #1 DVD Audio Ripper, and what is the 1st DVD ripper you have used? Did you see that cool edit of the "Hey Ya" video featuring Peanuts? I've seen it forty-two times!


Yeah, some of the arguments are just for the sake of arguing or insulting.

I never spotted that

Nor did I

[wings]

As jimmalenko points out (if I may paraphrase)...

No, you may not. There is implied copyright to my statement (which I wanted to encrypt but couldn't find a way) and each reproduction of this will require a money trail back to me

Sorry guys, wrong thread.

Can I make a suggestion that scenarios and ethics be left off the forum ? It always results in fisti-cuffs.

I agree. Like someone else posted. No one will admit to doing it anyway.
It's up there with don't talk about religion or politics.

[bugster]

To Supreme2k,

I never insulted or called anyone names. So don't tell me to STFU. This is an open forum and yes I donated not once but twice to this site so I have a right as long as I don't break the rules and call people names etc.

You certainly have the right to post and you certainly have the right to your own opinion. What I don't understand is why you apparently refuse to see the difference between fair-use Backups and illegal copying

[bugster]

Like someone else posted. No one will admit to doing it anyway.
It's up there with don't talk about religion or politics.

One person did earlier in this thread. Check his post.

[wings]

To Supreme2k,

I never insulted or called anyone names. So don't tell me to STFU. This is an open forum and yes I donated not once but twice to this site so I have a right as long as I don't break the rules and call people names etc.

You certainly have the right to post and you certainly have the right to your own opinion. What I don't understand is why you apparently refuse to see the difference between fair-use Backups and illegal copying

I do see the difference. And I know it's wrong. I am sure people do rent a movie like Shindlers List and and after watching it glance over at their burner and say what the heck and make a copy. I for one if I like a movie that much I will pay the $15.00 or $20.00 for it. Do I also back up my kids DVD so they don't mess up the originals? Yes I do. Of course they don't throw them around while playing with the dog like you see on TV. But I have seen 2 or 3 DVD's lying on the floor not put back in their boxes so I back up dose DVD's. If they scratch who cares. I have the original.
People here have said they do it. Others have stood on the saop box and said I have never burned a DVD I did not own. Well great. Good for you. I do mean that .

Now someone that goes to the video store and rents all the new releases and burns them all I agree it's wrong.

Just like first run screeners. Come on they are all over the place. Someone handed me a DVD not VCD of Passion Of The Christ 3 days ago. I had no interest to watch it anyway and said no thanks.

But did I say no to 50 First Dates. Oh well I won't say.

People do copy DVD's. That's why so many burners are sold.

Now copying and "selling" bootlegs is a whole other issue that I am also very strongly against.

As far as the TIVO question. I found that interesting. I have direcTV but not TIVO. So you can copy a payper view movie in DVD quality and then transfer it to your burner. At least that is what people here are saying?
Kind od like VCR's and HBO. They give you all the tools to copy your movies but then get mad when people do it.

If thats the case. Get rid of cable TV. Don't show movies so people can record them. Stop playing music on the radio because people are taping them. Close the librarys because people won't buy books. They are checking them out for free and photo copying them. OK I know the last one is a Stretch.

Anyway this was a great topic and I am sure one of the longest threads. I love this site for information. I have not or believe I have not insulted anyone or called anyone names in my posts. So to the people they post STFU yes I get mad . We are here to talk about issues.

Again I have said this before but this is a great site. Alot of hard works goes into this site. It has helped me alot. That's why I have donated in the past. It's better then a manual or helpline and it's open 24/7. At least as long as the internet line is not down 8) .

[ViRaL1]

Can I make a suggestion that scenarios and ethics be left off the forum ? It always results in fisti-cuffs.

What if there WERE no scenarios or hypothetical situations?

[aflowers]

This is probably stretching the memory caps a little, but has there ever been an official opinion regarding the recording of TV/Cable/Satellite programs? How about pay Per View? Once again, not for reproduction/resale, but for home use only. How about an unofficial opinion? Anonymous source?

Now you can see where ethics comes into play. Where do you draw the line?

[wings]

Even thou it's wrong. I don't think the DVD police are going door to door and taking your copy of Freaky Friday that you paid for through pay per view and recorded on TIVO then made a copy on DVDr for yourself. There is not enough staff for that . People have been doing this with VHS tapes and it goe's on now. All they can do is Tax the media and give it to the movie studios. Isn't that what they did with CDr's?

[bugster]

All they can do is Tax the media and give it to the movie studios. Isn't that what they did with CDr's?

In some countries they have yes. Canada is one I believe.

[aflowers]

Good answer. In fact, this might be the best answer for my questions and the original poster as well, right?

After all the discussion, the way I see it is:

The legality of what we do will probably be debated for years to come. Therefore, some measure of ethics come into play.

I can probably feel OK about moving my VHS movies to DVD for my personal viewing. Then, even lending the VHS to my mother because she's never going to get a DVD player and would never purchase or rent the movie anyway. The industry has lost no money by my actions.

I can probably make copies of my DVDs for the same reasons. Then, when my daughter drops one, and slides it across the floor to pick it up (which she HAS done), I still have use of the video.

Should not have a problem recording off the TV/Cable/Satellite for my own use, since those services have already be paid for. If memory serves, didn't some of the pay channels actually give to time to get ready to record before the movie?

I agree that Pay Per View should probably be treated as a rental. That is, should not be permanently recorded. However, I would really like to have a second opinion on that. Maybe the PPVs are already subsidized somehow??? I think I'll check with my satellite service.

Copying a rented movie to watch later? Ethics, again. If the intent was to keep the movie (thus the industry loses money), I couldn't do it. If I intended - and really did - erase it later? Probably still not legal in the strictest sense of the word. All things considered, I think that's where one's conscience would have to decide. And, if the poster didn't have a conscience, I doubt the question would have ever been asked.

Interesting discussion!

[duhmez]

If I order Pay per view, I will record it for my own use and I will keep it al long as I wish. there is no difference legally between pay per view or regular channels; they are both licensed for noncommercial private home viewing, which copying and keeping does not violate. Also, the regular channels I pay for too with satellite, so everything is pay per view.

[gmatov]

I am on cable now, and never have seen them tell anyone that the PPVs are free of Macro, but when I was on the Dish Network, it was clearly explained that there was no Macro, so you WERE ABLE to record and watch your recording w/o the damned dark/light crap.

Mebbe that is one answer to recording a PPV?

I'd venture to say NetFlix would not be going great guns were it not for DVD burners. Who the hell is going to order 3 more movies the next day unless they are copying for their library. The mail comes inat 3 PM, they're back in the mail in the AM.

Cheers,

George

[richdvd]

Who the hell is going to order 3 more movies the next day unless they are copying for their library.

lots of people. not everyone burns rentals.

[ViRaL1]

I'd LOVE to have time to watch 3 rentals a day. Can we trade jobs?

[richdvd]

I'd LOVE to have time to watch 3 rentals a day. Can we trade jobs?

I think you are missing my point here.
I am not saying that I have time to watch 3 movies a day.
If I don't have time to watch them, I simply don't rent them

Who the hell is going to order 3 more movies the next day unless they are copying for their library.

There are lots of familes with kids out there that rent movies strictly for viewing pleasure and lots of people who watch them and return them as normal.

[gmatov]

And there really is a tooth fairy.

C'mon, don't be an idjit!

Rip, backup your own, great, rent 6 at a time, take 'em all back the next day, bullshit.

Hope you someday have time to watch 'em all. You sure as hell don't now. You're too busy ripping, and converting to Shrinked size.

Lotsa pipple? Get a life. Hell, get a job. Or spend some more time with the books. 20 grand a year to send your sorry ass to school and all you wanna do is rip off DVDs?

Cheers,

George

[zworg2]

And there really is a tooth fairy.

WHAT YOU MEAN THERE ISNT!!!!

C'mon, don't be an idjit!
Rip, backup your own, great, rent 6 at a time, take 'em all back the next day, bullshit.
Hope you someday have time to watch 'em all. You sure as hell don't now. You're too busy ripping, and converting to Shrinked size.
Lotsa pipple? Get a life. Hell, get a job. Or spend some more time with the books. 20 grand a year to send your sorry ass to school and all you wanna do is rip off DVDs?

I refer the gentleman to the reply HERE that i gave a short while ago.

JUST BECAUSE YOU DO IT DOES NOT MEAN EVERYONE DOES.

JUST BECAUSE IT IS POSSIBLE DO NOT ASSUME THAT EVERYONE DOES IT.

Zworg2

[richdvd]

Lotsa pipple? Get a life. Hell, get a job. Or spend some more time with the books. 20 grand a year to send your sorry ass to school and all you wanna do is rip off DVDs?

First of all, time for some grammar classes. LOL
Second of all, do you know how to read and comprehend?
I am not even gonna bother with you George.
Go take a few English classes and then we can talk.

I'd venture to say NetFlix would not be going great guns were it not for DVD burners.

I'd venture to say that these are the words of a true idiot!

[ViRaL1]

I'm sure there are a number of people who have never copied copyrighted media; not that I can say I've ever come across them.

[red lion]

Just because you rent more than one a day does not mean you are backing them up..
Last week i went to the rental store and hired 2 movies and one ps2 game (one day rental only for all)
One of the movies an 18 cert i watched myself
My oldest son watched the other movie on another dvd player and my youngest played the ps2 game later in the day no big deal here (i know what some people will be thinking though)

[MackemX]

you know, every MF who posted on this topic has most likely copied a css protected dvd. get off of your high horses and stop being hipocrytes!!! if you disagree with the original hypothetical question, then just respond---don't act saintly like you never did something that you weren't supposed to do!!!!!!!!!!!

okay, I'll type this very slowly so you can follow along...

whether or not anyone on this forum pirates is irrelevant.

talking about it here is prohibited. advocating it here is prohibited. the owner of this site is willing to contest the idea that backing up something you own is inherently illegal, but he has made it pretty clear that this site does not endorse or advocate piracy, which includes backing up rentals (movies you do not own).

advocating or endorsing piracy of that sort in fact weakens the "Fair Use" arguments upon which this site is based.

and to be specific, if you can't prove it, shut your yap. you haven't been in my house, you haven't seen what I do with my burner. the fact that you do it is your business - don't assume to speak for everyone else here, and keep the fact that you do it off the board.

wow, so many things I could comment on

, you just gotta look at older posts to see what people do regarding DVD's as most have posted questions as newbies that give an impression of what they are doing. Nothing personal at all mate (so don't take it as a flame, it's just a point ) but I think I'm pretty safe to say you have broken CSS sometime in the past as you just gotta look at people's older posts

basically most here will have broken the 'law' but most won't have broken the 'fair use' law

so seeing as you have broken the law by breaking the CSS then what's the real difference between you and a pirate who may go on to sell that copy or didn't own the original?

the answer is probably an extra 10 years in jail and an extra $50,000 fine on top of whatever you get for breaking CSS , that's what! as you are both law breakers . Now because the forum rules state whatever, does that make something that is illegal into something legal?

this is what makes me laugh so much though as why do people voice so strongly about it in threads like these when most here are breaking some sort of law anyway. Why do they care so much if someone does it or not when they are law breakers themselves?

who gives a flying 'F' what anyone else does and why do people feel the need to say 'I don't do it so you shouldn't either!' etc and get so upset about it?

the bottom line is, if people feel the need to break the law and copy DVD's but go further than 'fair use' then don't mention it here. It's clearly stated in the rules so go elsewhere if you want help if you can't do it but want to

in fact who gives honestly a toss about this thread apart from it being fun to read as it goes tits up? Is it going to change anything apart from the ego's of some people and the feelings of others?, as that's what always happens

but you are right Housepig, nobody knows whatever you do in your own home but some here (not you) do seem to go on as if they are more innocent than the Pope or Mother Theresa and feel they are the 'morale' police with their posts

give me a break people

how many here can admit they would welcome the FBI or whoever into there home and browse amongst their DVD backup collection and PC and even setup some spy camera's to see what you 'really' do with the curtains closed?

in fact is everything in your possesion in your house etc legal? I bet even the Pope could be brought up before a court for one thing or another

but why do people get so upset about it feeling 'accused' by mine or others comments? . All they gotta do is say 'I don't' and I will believe you and if they don't reply does it matter?. What about the other 1,000's of members from this forum who haven't replied? Does that make them 'pirates' as they have not defended themselves?

p.s. just for the record I have never broken any law, no matter how big or small it is so all you accussers feel free to accuse

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I'm sure there are a number of people who have never copied copyrighted media; not that I can say I've ever come across them.

good point and although I have come across a few, as a percentage it's very small

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Ethical/Moral standards change from individual to individual. Legal standards change from state to state, country to country.

Legally, it depends on where you are located. Ethically, it depends on your own beliefs of what is acceptable. If you can live with yourself while doing it, then do it.

good post by the way 8) . You could ask a lot of these 'ethical' questions about anything that challenges law breaking and basically it gets you nothing but an argument in the end

e.g. if I killed Hitler before he started World War 2, would it still be murder even though I may have saved millions of lives or at least extended them?. If I could get away with it as nobody knew I was doing it and I never told anyone would it be murder?. It's only murder to someone who knows about my actions. To me it isn't murder and the only other guy who knows about it is dead and can't say Bo Diddley about it

try to associate that with the original thread post and you will probably get the same arguments in one way or another. We all know it goes on and the less we know about it here the better but don't get so offensive/defensive about it people

even if it breaks the ethical/morale/true law or not, it's all down to the individual's morale's as jimmalenko mentions. As I interpret the forum rules, it ask that if you go doing it then don't post here

so simple yet so misunderstood :P

they people who should be getting the most grief are the $%£%^$£ who charge so much in the 1st place but that's a whole different argument. Most would probably spend more money buying DVD's if they were cheaper than what they do normally. It would be too tempting to resist as you would buy all the DVD's you wouldn't normally buy

p.p.s. I'm off to Blockbuster right now so any recommendations on what to rent?. Kidding pf course as I haven't rented a movie in a long time as I'd rather put the money to use elsewhere

[gmatov]

This is getting better by the moment.

Zworg,

I don't assume that you, personally, are copying rentals. I did read your prior post.

Richdvd,

You DO get on your high horse, don't you? The most ethical person on the entire site.

I would venture to say more people with DVD burners DO make copies of stuff they don't own than of stuff they DO own.
Not that I give a damn, but the hypocracy of those who swear they would never do that, then start such a thread, is ridiculous. Are you looking to see if the majority will say, "Yes, this is an acceptible behaviour, you DID spend big bucks to buy the burner and the high priced media.".

If you wish to do this, why in the hell do you have to bring it up here?

Hell, I only have 47 DVDs, myself. Have enough trouble getting those backed up, getting the damned director's comments instead of the movie itself, watching one now, and damned mad that I got nothing but the yoyos telling you how tough it was to make this particular movie.

Do as you wish, just quit trying to get everybody on a guilt trip.

Cheers,

George