Bad Media Theory

[fangstar]

Hi,

I am a regular user of burned dvd's. Here are my specs:

P4 2.5 GHZ
750 Ram
40 & 20 Gb hard drive
Windows XP Professional

DVD Shrink 3.1.6
Nero Express
External/Firewire NEC ND1300A burner 4speed +/- R/RW
Compaq and Liteon 16x DVD-Rom drives

I use 98% of the time Pine 2x DVD-r and the rest are burned in Maxell 4x DVD-r.

Out of my Pine dvds i get a 80% satisfaction rate, which means out of every 10 i copy i get 2 that are bad (skeeping and frezzing). Most the problems happen in the last 20 minutes of the movie. So to fix that problem i setup DVD Shrink to 4.1GB per disk. This solve the problem in many of them. But some freeze and skip from beginning to end.

By now i am thinking is the media that is the issue, since i use Pine ($1.20CAD per disk) i believed in that view. Yesterday something happened that changed my view.

I made a back up of one of my movies. I played the original in my Toshiba SD3800 and it was fine. I played the copy and it skipped from beginning to end. I took the copy to my PC and it played fine in my Compaq DVD-Rom drive and on mine Liteon DVD-Rom. No skipping no freezing. Just perfect.

So i went out and i bought a Daytek p871 and i played all the backups i have done that i had problems with and they played perfectly on this new player. The same backup movie skips on the Toshiba but not on the Daytek.

In conclusion: I due believe that some DVD players play better with some media than others. Even same brand different disk you get different results.The best way to ensure quality is to find a dvd player that has a good "error reading" and that is not sensitive. I found one....the Daytek p871.

Please add your comments!!!!!

[cafetimer]

I completeley agree with you. Other non-sensitive players are the APEX. Weird, cheap players tend to manage different discs better than brand name ones.

[nickelzy]

Your experience supports the point that I've been making lately about people often jumping to the conclusion that "bad media" is your problem without taking other factors in consideration. Your situation illustrates yet another factor in the mix of making and playing copied dvds successfully (so many factors to have to consider!). Sometimes IT IS the media, but in alot of other cases, it just flat out isn't. That's the mistake, in my opinion, that people often make. Blaming one thing before truly investigating the problem.

[fangstar]

I am glad you guys agree.

Apex is also a great brand for DVD players if you are looking at a machine that will play burned media without any glitches. I had an Apex 500D and i sold it to a friend. He had a Panasonic and everytime i would let him borrow a backup of one of my movies it would skip or freeze.

Now that he has an Apex when the movie freezes or skips on his Panasonic he plays it in his Apex without a problem.

I believe the better the player (sony, panasonic, toshiba, samsung) the more sensitive the laser is, which could cause freezing and skipping, speacilly when using poor media. The cheaper brands like Daytek and Apex are not as good but it will play everything, regardless of how cheap your media is.

[nufan292]

Don't know for sure, but doesn't APEX use DVD-rom drives in their DVDplayers?

[alexg26]

pine dvd-r are bad media,i had problems with them and never again i'm buying them..played in panasonic freeze and pause..
played in toshiba freezes and pause...
so i tryed diffrent media and from now all i'm buying is TDK and RITEK, because i try them on 2 panasonic RV31 and RV32 and toshiba SD1200 and Pioneer and many more and they play with no freeze or pauses....

[fangstar]

I agree with you, Pine is cheap.

The problem is more than cheap media. My toshiba plays 8 - 10 movies (burned on Pine) with no problem, the ones with problems i place them on either of my DVD-Rom drives or my Daytek and they play fine.

Hitachi has new DVD players with a High Error Correction, and i think this is the key to this problem.

We all know that bad media, good media is a factor, but if you have a DVD player with high error correction, regardless of how bad the media is it will play it.

think about it

[CaseyComb]

RITEK G04...I have 3 computers with different burners and different burning software. I have had at least 6-7 different DVD players of varying degrees of quality. RITEK has worked flawlessly with all of these. I don't buy anything else. The G04's burn at the highest speeds my burners can handle and come out perfect.

[northcat_8]

Apex is also a great brand for DVD players if you are looking at a machine that will play burned media without any glitches.

So is any other DVD player if you buy good media to begin with.

I have sold almost 1000 DVDs and they are spread all over the country. All burned at 4x on RitekG04 media and not a single return.

Just buy better discs and you don't have to worry about it.

[Rich86]

Well, having read all the rave reviews of Ritek G04 media - I ordered some. They are fine - but still give me slight pixelation occasionally - just like the Memorex (CMC) 4x dvd-r media I was using before.
I'm burning these media on a Sony 510a - with the firmware set for "silent" (default 2x dvd-r burn speed) - using CloneDVD2 with its speed set for 2x.
If someone really has a magic formula for consistently perfect burns - I'd love to hear it.
I'm beginning to think maybe this technology just isn't fully up to par yet.

[FulciLives]

The best DVD-R discs are those that say MADE IN JAPAN

Some FUJI packs say this ... just about all Maxell packs say this ... some TDK packs say this.

Right now the best "bang" for your money is Maxell

Well at least if you live in the USA

Walmart has been selling 10 packs of the Maxell 4x DVD-R discs for $16.84 and yes these are the MADE IN JAPAN discs.

If you like to buy in bulk on-line then try Taiyo-Yuden which can be bought for as low as $1.55 each (shipping additional) from RIMA.COM and I only mention RIMA.COM because although you can buy Taiyo-Yuden from many on-line retailers I have yet to see anyone beat RIMA.COM in price ... at least for Taiyo-Yuden

Ritek G04 were damn good for a long time but as of late many people have been saying that they are getting bad batches or at least SOME bad discs per batch.

If you are a DVD+R person then the RICOH brand is best ... again look for DVD+R discs that say MADE IN JAPAN as these should be RICOH brand.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

RICOHJPN because JPN=Japan
But the DVD+R Ricoh are still 2nd class media.
The Taiwan=bad, Japan=Good is a general rule, not a absolute one.
Fulci, I'm sure you know that, just clarifyin for the other folks.

[northcat_8]

Fulci -

I just got another 50 spindle of RitekG04 discs from shop4tech (I've not had problems buying from them yet...but I am aware others have), I buy from there because I know exactly the disc I am looking for part number wise and I know exactly what I am getting...in any event...

I went with the Riteks because someone early on told me they were the best. You obviously know more about the different media than I do, so if problems arise, I will be following your advice...I don't care what name is on the disc...as long as it works properly.

I believe in the computer world, you get what you pay for...

[FulciLives]

RICOHJPN because JPN=Japan
But the DVD+R Ricoh are still 2nd class media.
The Taiwan=bad, Japan=Good is a general rule, not a absolute one.
Fulci, I'm sure you know that, just clarifyin for the other folks.

Name one bad brand or maker of DVD-R media that is MADE IN JAPAN

I'm not trying to be a smart ass ... I just don't know of any!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[xcool]

Please stop that -R and MADE IN JAPAN are better bullshit.

[FulciLives]

Please stop that -R and MADE IN JAPAN are better bullshit.

Well sorry but it is true ... and you can buy MADE IN JAPAN DVD+R media if you really want it

I can't help it you refuse to believe in something that is fact.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Gazorgan]

I have basically 2 types of DVDR's, RITEK G04's and TDK 2x's. My APEX plays them all flawlessly. My opterite barfs on the TDK's at the 3 GB mark (at where the burn laser changes to a stronger strength during a CAV burn). All disks are 100% in DVDInfo Pro.

So tell me it's media? It's not a transcoder issue, since it happens with DVDShrink on DVD9's or DVDDecryptor on DVD5's.

I also have some DVDRW's that won't play in the Opterite (not DVD complient, too many clips) that play in the Apex just fine.

[johns0]

xcool,FulciLives knows his media and people like to know whats best,sounds to me like you get upset very easily.

[northcat_8]

Gazorgan

~does your opterite barf on the RitekG04?

I've never had any problems burning anything on any disc with my DVR-105...I don't burn with anything other than Decrytper...I don't think its a transcoder issue either.

It is widely known that not all players will play RW discs and you didn't say anything about the Ritek not working in your opterite...only the TDK's. If this is true...then had you burned them on Riteks you wouldn't have those problems...therefore, use better media.

Out of my Pine dvds i get a 80% satisfaction rate, which means out of every 10 i copy i get 2 that are bad (skeeping and frezzing). Most the problems happen in the last 20 minutes of the movie.

That's media...he didn't say he couldn't burn them. If you are having trouble burning them then obviously your issue is different and probably not media related...yet.

[fangstar]

I have had 100% satisfaction with my Daytek dvd player.



10 backups on Pine 2x -R and 3 backups on Maxell 4x -R. This machine is the bomb. But what i did yesterday will solve all media problems.



Basically i turned one of my PC's into a DVD/Entertainment Unit.



P4 1.7Ghz

40 Gb Hard Drive, 512MB Ram, Windows Xp Professional

DVD-Rom from LiteOn with a ATI TV-Out S-Video Card and an ASUS P4B Motherboard that has 5.1 Dolby Digital Surround Sound output (component and fiber).



I connected to my Samsung HDTV and voila.......100% satisfaction on both sound and image. No skipping no freezing.

[Gazorgan]

Neither player has any issues with the G04's. One player has serious issues with the TDK's, but it's not the TDK's fault (they work great in other players/puter).

So it really boils down to some players don't like some media, and there's nothing wrong with either individually.

[fangstar]

That is what i've been saying.

Some players prefer some media over others.

My Daytek will read everything but my Toshiba prefers Verbatim or Maxell.

[xcool]

My Memorex 'CMC' MADE IN TAIWAN 4X +R discs arrived today. Yeah, they were all CMC (I was expecting "Ritek" Memorex like before); after reading so many bad comments about CMC here, my blood pressure immediately went up. However, I compared them with my other 'Ritek' Memorex; I didn't see any difference: both were dark purple, very even all the way to the edge, no bubble like other commented.

I burned about 5 discs to their full capacity (4438MB) without any coaster using RecordNow (with data verification). They all played fine on my Denon 5000, Apex 1600 and Coby standalone DVD players. I ran the Kprobe and DVDInfoPro read tests at default max read speed. Noticing both tests indicated there were many errors. But then I had no problem copying the discs back to the hard drive at full speed 10X to 12X on my Lite-On DVD-ROM. So the Kprobe and DVDInfoPro were probably no accurate I thought. I mean if those read errors revealed by Kprobe and DVDInfoPro tests were real; my Lite-On would have to slow down to reread the data or the other ECC information to correct the error, and to reject if it encountered any uncorrectable error. To complete the analysis, I did the Kprobe and DVDInfoPro tests at slower speed like 4X &2X, this time both tests detected a lot less read errors (4X had the lowest). My conclusion was Kprobe and DVDInfoPro are very subjective at different speed. I got similar results from Imation, Verbatim, and Sony 4X +R discs.

The point here is Memorex, Imation and others NOT MADE IN JAPAN +R 4X are equallly as good but much less expensive. If you want to save yourself few buck, pay 65 cents for a Memorex or Imation 4X +R disc; or 160 cents for Maxell -R. I think the choice is simple.

If you care/want to disagree, please provide some facts or test results. Don't just give that overly generalized statement; and this is not the court, don't try to win your case by technicality .

Please stop that -R and MADE IN JAPAN are better bullshit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For my test, I used HP 300e 4X &Khypermedia 8X +R only burners and 16X Lite-On DVD-ROM.

[FulciLives]

My Memorex 'CMC' MADE IN TAIWAN 4X +R discs arrived today. Yeah, they were all CMC (I was expecting "Ritek" Memorex like before); after reading so many bad comments about CMC here, my blood pressure immediately went up. However, I compared them with my other 'Ritek' Memorex; I didn't see any difference: both were dark purple, very even all the way to the edge, no bubble like other commented.

I burned about 5 discs to their full capacity (4438MB) without any coaster using RecordNow (with data verification). They all played fine on my Denon 5000, Apex 1600 and Coby standalone DVD players. I ran the Kprobe and DVDInfoPro read tests at default max read speed. Noticing both tests indicated there were many errors. But then I had no problem copying the discs back to the hard drive at full speed 10X to 12X on my Lite-On DVD-ROM. So the Kprobe and DVDInfoPro were probably no accurate I thought. I mean if those read errors revealed by Kprobe and DVDInfoPro tests were real; my Lite-On would have to slow down to reread the data or the other ECC information to correct the error, and to reject if it encountered any uncorrectable error. To complete the analysis, I did the Kprobe and DVDInfoPro tests at slower speed like 4X &2X, this time both tests detected a lot less read errors (4X had the lowest). My conclusion was Kprobe and DVDInfoPro are very subjective at different speed. I got similar results from Imation, Verbatim, and Sony 4X +R discs.

The point here is Memorex, Imation and others NOT MADE IN JAPAN +R 4X are equallly as good but much less expensive. If you want to save yourself few buck, pay 65 cents for a Memorex or Imation 4X +R disc; or 160 cents for Maxell -R. I think the choice is simple.

If you care/want to disagree, please provide some facts or test results. Don't just give that overly generalized statement; and this is not the court, don't try to win your case by technicality .

Please stop that -R and MADE IN JAPAN are better bullshit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For my test, I used HP 300e 4X &Khypermedia 8X +R only burners and 16X Lite-On DVD-ROM.

Well you posted basically the exact same crap in another thread and in that thread I just posted my READ ERROR TEST and SPEED TEST on a MADE IN JAPAN MAXELL 4x DVD-R disc. The results?

Go see for yourself:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=849917#849917

For those that don't feel like following the link I'll fill you in ... both tests reported ZERO errors.

Suck on that!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[northcat_8]

Gazorgan

Neither player has any issues with the G04's. One player has serious issues with the TDK's, but it's not the TDK's fault (they work great in other players/puter).

So it really boils down to some players don't like some media, and there's nothing wrong with either individually.

Agreed.

We are debating this issue based on different needs.

I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that incompatability (to me) is covered under "media" issue. For my needs, I need a blank media that is the most widely compatible because of the wide variety of players that my customers may own. Selling them wedding DVDs that won't play for them is bad for business.

As far as my own DVD player...the $48.00 Pioneer from Wal-mart...I think it will play anything, I've never had a disc fail to play in it, Ritek, Memorex, CD-R, DVD-RW, CD-RW...hell, I might try burning a DVD on the little clear protection discs at the top and bottom of each spindle...

...I burn my own stuff on Riteks because eventually my "expensive" $48 pioneer player will go down...and when it does...I don't want to have to shop for a new DVD player based on whether my family's vacations will play in them or not.

[bdf24]

I bought a RCA DRC230N cause my old Samsung would'nt play anything not commercial. And half the time would skip on them too. My first few disk's backed up played fine on my new RCA player. Then I started getting freezes and glitches after that. The media is Ritek G04's from newegg. I'm almost done with the bundle about 15 left. Any disk I burn at 4x with have many freezes and stutters a lot. But burned at 2X will play almost perfect but still has a few very quick stutters here and there. Maybe 3 or 4 per movie. But in different spots everytime you watch them.
But the disks play fine in other people's players. So I'm assuming my player just does'nt like the Riteks much.

So I took one disk that stuttered very bad constantly and did an ISO image with DVD Decrypter. Burned it to a Memorex DVD+RW and it played back perfect in the player. So am I right to assume my player just does'nt like the Riteks?

I actually think next time I'm going to try a batch of +R's to see if I have better luck.

[Ronaldus]

Here is my opinion on media types. First, I won't even get into the Taiwan vs. Japan issue because I don't know enough to judge. I will say that I've compared TDK media which said "Made in Japan" and "Made in Taiwan" and the media codes were both TDKG02... and the media looked identical. Is there a factory in each country which uses the same code or do both of these TDKG02... media come from the same place in spite of their "Made in..." labels?

Besides TDKG02 I've looked at RITEKG03 and G04. People rave about RITEKG04, but rarely say anything about G03. Based on a new Toshiba 3950 player which stuttered on any media burned over 1x and the fact that faster burns are supposedly more error prone (simply due to the higher speed and extra laser power needed), I tend to feel 1x or 2x burns are potentially more reliable than 4x. That may not be true, but it's been enough reason to steer toward G03 over G04 as speed is not an issue with me. I'll take reliability over speed any day.

Do others agree that RITEKG03 is of equivalent reliability/quality to G04, or is G04 better than G03?

I had 2 DVD-ROM drives that did not like TDKG02 media very well, but no players had any problems with TDK. Meanwhile no players or DVD-ROM drives ever had a problem with either RITEKG0x type. That naturally biased me toward RITEK. I recently saw some 4x Imation which I had assumed would be RITEKG04 like the 1x RITEKG03, but I didn't research it ahead of time. I found out it was CMCAG.AF1, so I returned the unopened 4x in favor of 1x which should be RITEKG03. The salesperson thought it was strange to pick 1x over 4x. It was pointless to explain the reason as the average store salesperson thinks all media is the same.

You mention "rot" and they can't grasp the concept that the organic dye might degrade over time. I care about shelf life over speed, and I'm hoping that RITEKG03, G04, and TDKG02 will do well in those areas. Unfortunately it's too soon to tell. I learned to avoid Princo, Primeon, Optodisc, and CMC from experience or from listening to others.

Finally, I see people often post media read error and speed analysis snapshots from DVD Info Pro. I tried several media and got the same pictures every time... no read errors and occasional blips in the speed chart which I assume are normal. Even old Princos that give me grief in some drives show up all happy in these graphs. I am wondering what these graphs tell me about media quality if they all look the same? Does the read error graph hide CRC error corrections behind the scenes?

Is DVD Info Pro the best tool we have for determining media quality? I wanted to try Kprobe but it said for Lite-On drives only. Ideally there would be something that provided a low level uncorrected bit error rate for the data read from the optical pickup, but that may be impossible due to the firmware limitations of various drives.

[fangstar]

It's all about what works for you.

I have a Daytek P871 and a Philips 726 and they read anything and everything. -R/RW +R/RW CD-R CD-RW MP3 WMA MPEG1 MPEG2 DVD-Ram PAL and NTSC.

So i am extremly happy with both. I used to use Pine 2x but now since i found out that Walmart has Maxell 4x i only use Maxell.

Both players play both brands fine, but you can't even start to compare both medias. I have a HDTV, and i can tell the difference in the quality of the image. Pine disc gives you a good image but the Maxell it's so much better.

You look at the ink and thickness of the discs ae night and day.

In the world of backup DVD's too many factors are at play in order for anybody to make a smart call on what causes what and what media is better.

Media, burner, PC, DVD-rom, software, burn speeds, dvd player....all play a factor. The best media, is the one that works for you.

[chuck smith]

I think I may have some insight into the media problems that people are experiencing. I struggled with about a 60% success rate backing up DVD's. I have used various brands of discs and was originally using DVXCopy Express. I have since switched to DVD Decrypter, DVD Shrink and Roxio to burn. I beleive a major problem with burning DVD's is trying to burn the disc at too high a speed. DVDXCopy Express does not allow you to lower the burn speed. If it recognizes that the media can be burned at 4x, it will burn at 4x. I had numerous problems burning to Ritek G04 discs even after all of the positive feedback I had read on this site. I found that once I turned down the burn speed to 2X (using Roxio) for the Ritek discs, my success rate went to 100%.

I am not going to claim this will fix everone's problems, but I know that this has cured my problems. Isn't it worth waiting an extra few minutes for backups that actually work??? Good luck.

If other posters have posted the same thoughts, I apologize.

[bdf24]

Like I said I have a much better success rate burning at 2X then I do at 4X with the Ritek G04's I got. Did'nt start out that way though. Who know's I could have gotten a bad batch to. I will try a different brand next time just to see what works best with my player. That's all that really matters to me.