OK...352x480...but what bitrate?

[MrMungus]

Well, I feel stupid now. I just did my first cap at 352x480 after capping over twenty tapes at 720x480. I *think* the quality is equal to the 720x480 caps but I haven't done an in-depth analysis.

So the question now is, if I was doing 720x480 caps at 6 to 8 Mbps, what bitrate should I use for 352x480 caps?

Also, if I'm (hypothetically) capping from DVD should I use 720x480 or 352x480?

[bugster]

As always, the required bitrate depends on the source material. However, if you were previously happy with 6Mbps, then halving the resolution you can halve the bitrate. Try it at 3Mbps and see what you think.

As for Capping DVD, why would you want to do that??

Hmmm, yes, I probably would cap DVD at 720 * 480.

[MrMungus]

As always, the required bitrate depends on the source material. However, if you were previously happy with 6Mbps, then halving the resolution you can halve the bitrate. Try it at 3Mbps and see what you think.

As for Capping DVD, why would you want to do that??

Hmmm, yes, I probably would cap DVD at 720 * 480.

Yeah, I'm about to try the lower bitrate.

The reason I asked about DVDs is because I'm wondering if the rule that VHS is only 352x480 also applies to how DVDs are displayed on analog TVs...that is, if I'm just using an analog TV, would it be overkill to capture something at 720x480...

[bugster]

The reason I asked about DVDs is because I'm wondering if the rule that VHS is only 352x480 also applies to how DVDs are displayed on analog TVs...that is, if I'm just using an analog TV, would it be overkill to capture something at 720x480...

To a certain extent the 'analog resolution' depends on your transport signal.

Composite has the lowest resolution.
S-Video is next best
RGB or Compnent are best.

So if you are capping using composite, sticking to 1/2 D1 probably makes sense. If using S-vid, RGB or component, and good quality source (NOT VHS) then you will probably benefit from full D1.

[Gazorgan]

I use rates from 2000 to 3000. Remember SVCD maxes around 2300, and I have flawless SVCD's. Since 1/2 D1 has 25% less bits, you can benefit quite a bit. You can nearly double the SVCD bitrate when you go 3000-3500.

As to whether or not you can tell the difference? How big is your TV? How good is your source? I do almost exclusively 352x480 versus full D1 for anything but a DVD source.

[MrMungus]

The reason I asked about DVDs is because I'm wondering if the rule that VHS is only 352x480 also applies to how DVDs are displayed on analog TVs...that is, if I'm just using an analog TV, would it be overkill to capture something at 720x480...

To a certain extent the 'analog resolution' depends on your transport signal.

Composite has the lowest resolution.
S-Video is next best
RGB or Compnent are best.

So if you are capping using composite, sticking to 1/2 D1 probably makes sense. If using S-vid, RGB or component, and good quality source (NOT VHS) then you will probably benefit from full D1.

How does the connection matter? I thought the reason for 352x480 was the number of scan lines, not the quality of the signal...?

[Matt D]

Welcome to the club. I was one of those that believed that capturing at 720x480 HAD to be better cause it's a higher resolution. Much to my surprise my VHS caps looked grainy and produced artifacts in fast motion scenes.
IMO unless the source is fantastic, 720x480 is overkill. Now if I'm capturing VHS or Satellite I go straight to 352x480 and the quality is fantastic. No more motion artifacts, less noticable graininess and overall, less of a drain on time and resources.

For me VBR works the best. I use 3500 max, 2500 average, and 800 minimum, and with these settings I can get a bit over 3 hours on a DVD-r.
Tweaking it a bit lower doesn't decrease quality by any noticable amount, so you could probably record more if you mess around a bit. Constant bitrate is also good, but the file size is bigger for the same result. The upside to constant is that it takes less time to encode with TMPGEnc.

[J3M]

As someone else stated, it has everything to do with what you are capturing. For example, if I'm recording a sporting event like hockey, I'm going to use a slightly higher bitrate because of all the motion and camera movement. If I'm just recording a my favorite TV sitcom that has very little action, I'll drop the bitrate and still get good results.

[MrMungus]

As someone else stated, it has everything to do with what you are capturing. For example, if I'm recording a sporting event like hockey, I'm going to use a slightly higher bitrate because of all the motion and camera movement. If I'm just recording a my favorite TV sitcom that has very little action, I'll drop the bitrate and still get good results.

Right. What I was wondering is if the reason for doing caps at 352x480 was not for the reduction in bitrate offered but because it would be easier to capture (say, for analog capture cards that preceded Firewire and MPEG-2 capture cards).

If video capped at 352x480 is displayed at the same size on a TV as video capped at 720x480, wouldn't you have to capture at the same bitrate to get the same resultant quality? Reminds me of the question I asked weeks ago about if 720x480 is overkill (from a bitrate perspective, not frame size). I should go revisit that thread.

I guess I'll be doing some qualitative testing on this. Too.

[lordsmurf]

2200-5000 is good. I normally have 2.5 or 3.5 avg and then 4.0 max. Maybe 4.5 or 5.0 max if live material and have space on disc. Extra never hurts (though just little extra, not bloated extra).

[toronto098]

I normally do 352x480 Mpg-1 at 2000 - 2300. It is acceptable to me. I am not saying it is superb. But then, every one's standard is different. Best to experiment few and pick the one you like the most.

The other reason I do it this way is in case the file size is fitting onto a CD then I would burn it to VCD non standard. The advantages are that it cost less burning VCD and I could apply labels to the VCD (mainly for my kids).

[WuphonsReach]

(If I'm going to filter the video, which is typical for me because I'm working with old cruddy VHS tapes or taping off-the-air, not from cable... I cap at 720, filter and then resize down to 352. Filters are the 2D Cleaner thresh 10 radius 1, followed by Smart Smoother High Quality v2.11 diameter 5 threshold 15 maintain 10 weighted w/ diff.)

Useful bitrates to know, assuming you're going to use 256kbps AC3 audio:

3800 VBR - probably the top-end for half-D1, good for fitting (3) 48min TV episodes on a disc

2900 VBR - I use this a lot, lets me fit (4) 48min TV eps per disc

2350 VBR - Will let you do (5) 48min TV eps per disc... quality starts to suffer a bit (was a really crappy source tape, so *shrug*).

Noisy source requires higher bitrates. You can see this in action when you capture using an MJPEG codec. Sometimes 720x480 at Q19 captures at 2.5Mb/sec, othertimes the bitrate goes up to 4.0Mb/sec.

[sacajaweeda]

I capture a bunch of sitcoms off the cable TV and back them up to DVD. I do all my caps @ 368x480, then resize to 344x240 and then add a 4 line border to the left and right to make it a 352x240 frame size then I encode them using a VBR setting of 1563 avg 500 min 9668 max and I encode the audio to ac3 128k. I get sixteen 22 minute episodes on a DVD this way that are better than VHS quality.

[lordsmurf]

I capture a bunch of sitcoms off the cable TV and back them up to DVD. I do all my caps @ 368x480, then resize to 344x240 and then add a 4 line border to the left and right to make it a 352x240 frame size then I encode them using a VBR setting of 1563 avg 500 min 9668 max and I encode the audio to ac3 128k. I get sixteen 22 minute episodes on a DVD this way that are better than VHS quality.

Deinterlaced?

[sacajaweeda]

Looks good too.

[SquirrelDip]

Here's my two cents:

Basically, half of what you find acceptable for full resolution. Values vary from person to person - what you find acceptable, I may not.

I do all my DVD backups at 1/2 D1. Generally they are played on a small LCD (for kids on road trips) - I'll use bitrates down to about 1100 average and put around 5.5 hours on a DVDR (three movies - keep the original english AC3, lose all the extras). Quality is great on the small LCD and even acceptable up to 27".

Also, I've found that at lower bitrates I get better results from Main Concept over TMPGEnc (I've tried but don't use CCE).

[FulciLives]

I've found in my testing that Half D1 hits the MAX bitrate at around 5000kbps video bitrate.

So consider that as a MAX and go from there.

In short I do a CBR of 5000kbps and will stick with CBR unless I get down to around 4000kbps

At that point I like to do a 2-pass VBR although 4000kbps CBR looks pretty darn good.

I never like to go below 3500kbps and if I'm going that low then that is my AVG in a 2-pass VBR encode.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[2dogs2]

I like 3.9 x 2.4 VBR

I have been recording all mine at 352x240 MP2 (MP2-DVD now) for awhile.
Some of my friends who I share disks with have problems with their players at 352x480 (Jumpiness) Most of mine usually run about (1 Gig) for an hour of movie time, and the quality is great for all.

[FulciLives]

I like 3.9 x 2.4 VBR

I have been recording all mine at 352x240 MP2 (MP2-DVD now) for awhile.
Some of my friends who I share disks with have problems with their players at 352x480 (Jumpiness) Most of mine usually run about (1 Gig) for an hour of movie time, and the quality is great for all.

I don't care if you use a CBR of 8000kbps because 352x240 looks like crap unless you watch stuff on a 13" TV and even then it is noticeable that the quality is not right.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman