23.976 fps -> 29.970 fps = jerky encode?

[digital_frog]

I would appreciate it if someone could help with this:

I have a bunch of tv clips encoded at 23.976 that I want to convert to DVD. Tmpgenc DVD Author will only allow PAL or NTSC fps input, but when I encode the clips through Tmpgenc at 29.970 i get jerky video on the final DVD. Unfortunately, I can only see this after I burn the DVD (PC plays back with no problem) so I've made quite a few expensive coasters over the past few days.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

DF

[FulciLives]

You can encode the clips with TMPGEnc Plus at 23.976fps progressive aka non-interlaced with 3:2 pulldown. If you import the AVI clip into TMPGEnc Plus using the WIZARD MODE it should automatically set everything up for you correctly.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[digital_frog]

Thanks for the reply. I know what you're talking about. I was looking for that setting as well bc I used it for a couple of SVCD's a few days ago. Unfortunatley, from what I can see its only available for VCD and SVCD in the wizard, not DVD or 1/2 DVD which is what I'm trying to make.

It does give me an option however in the settings to encode with 3:2 pulldown but it doesn't specify if its interlaced or progressive. Do you think that might work?

Thanks again,

DF

[SLK001]

If you already have clips encoded at 23.976fps, then just run them through PULLDOWN.EXE, and set the correct pulldown flags and the PROGRESSIVE FRAMES flag, then any authoring program should import them.

[digital_frog]

Ok, thanks. Just one question. Do I have to separate the video and audio streams first? I read somewhere that you have to demux the file first.

The problem is that I run Tmpgenc on most files without demuxing unless theres a serious audio problem, so I would have to manually split evey file, run pulldown then multiplex the file again, right?

DF

[Skynet107]

DVD-Lab will demux the file for you and also add the pulldown flag.

[FulciLives]

Here is the proceedure to do what you want to do using a DivX or Xvid video file.

Screen shot 1 is the wizard import screen:



Notice that when I load the DivX file the settings are automatically set to NON-INTERLACED ... 1:1 (VGA) ... Film Movie

This is correct for most DivX and Xvid videos since they are almost always progressive aka non-interlaced.

Click on NEXT and that takes you to the next screen:



Click on OTHER SETTINGS (circled red in the screen shot) and this opens the MPEG SETTING window as seen in the next screen shot:



Notice the FRAME RATE and the ENCODE MODE. This is set up like this because you used the WIZARD MODE. This is the proper settings (as seen in the picture) when you have a progressive/non-interlaced NTSC source. This will encode as progressive with 3:2 pulldown.

Now click on the ADVANCED TAB at the top:



You should set VIDEO ARRANGE METHOD to FULL SCREEN (KEEP ASPECT RATIO) as in the picture. You do NOT have to check 3:2 pulldown on this tab.

Now click on OK and this takes you back to the WIZARD where you set your bitrate and file name.

See isn't that easy

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
All pictures have been uploaded. This post is finished!

[digital_frog]

Notice the FRAME RATE and the ENCODE MODE. This is set up like this because you used the WIZARD MODE. This is the proper settings (as seen in the picture) when you have a progressive/non-interlaced NTSC source. This will encode as progressive with 3:2 pulldown.

OK, got it. The only step I was missing was selecting the "Content of Video" -> "Film Movie" option which is why it wasn't giving me the 23.976 (internally 29.970) and "3:2 pulldown when playback option".

Thanks for taking the time to demonstrate so clearly btw, much appreciated.

Rgds,

DF

[FulciLives]

Glad I could help

Good Luck !!!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[deaddog]

You do NOT have to check 3:2 pulldown on this tab.

It took me ages to work that bit out (involved banging head against walls). Nice explanation by the way. A picture paints a thousand words and its always good for newbies like me to "see what you see" when you are explaing what should be done.

I dont know why, but tmpgenc also automatiocally selects "inverse telecine" on the "advanced tab" options. This appears odd because it is my understanding that "inverse telecene" is a process to REDUCE 29.97fps to 23.976fps, yet tmpgenc clearly knows i already have 23.976 because I told it so

Also I read that when tmpgenc goes on about about a frame rate of "23.976 (internally 29.97)" its actually wrong as the numbers should be the other way around "29.97 (internally 23.976)". Can anyone confirm this, as all my "understanding" is based on it being wrong.

[FulciLives]

You do NOT have to check 3:2 pulldown on this tab.

It took me ages to work that bit out (involved banging head against walls). Nice explanation by the way. A picture paints a thousand words and its always good for newbies like me to "see what you see" when you are explaing what should be done.

I dont know why, but tmpgenc also automatiocally selects "inverse telecine" on the "advanced tab" options. This appears odd because it is my understanding that "inverse telecene" is a process to REDUCE 29.97fps to 23.976fps, yet tmpgenc clearly knows i already have 23.976 because I told it so

Also I read that when tmpgenc goes on about about a frame rate of "23.976 (internally 29.97)" its actually wrong as the numbers should be the other way around "29.97 (internally 23.976)". Can anyone confirm this, as all my "understanding" is based on it being wrong.

Well there are several places where the English is not so hot. Chock it up to the fact that it is a Japanese programe translated into English.

As long as you know it works who cares if the wording is off a bit

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[bdf24]

I've been trying to get rid of the random jerky effect your talking about for a little while now. I run my 23.976 Divx films thru TMPGenc exactly as stated above and still get the jerkyness in the movies. It's not constant but it's there every 10 to 20 seconds for a second or two.

Any suggestions on whats causing this?

[FulciLives]

I've been trying to get rid of the random jerky effect your talking about for a little while now. I run my 23.976 Divx films thru TMPGenc exactly as stated above and still get the jerkyness in the movies. It's not constant but it's there every 10 to 20 seconds for a second or two.

Any suggestions on whats causing this?

Stop using downloaded DivX sources.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[maduser74]

Hi FulciLives,

I am also have some jerkyness. But my source is PAL VCD.

Here is what i did, I converted my PAL VCDs to SVCD (NTSC Film).
Then i tried to do pulldown on the video to make it 29.97.

I was able to successfully create a DVD with two PAL VCDs, but i found jerkyness here and there in one of the movie especially at the eariler part of the movie.

Is there any better approach to convert PAL VCDs to NTSC VCD-DVDs ?

Thanks
Sathish

[bdf24]

Thanks! Thats just the answer I was looking for.

[FulciLives]

Hi FulciLives,

I am also have some jerkyness. But my source is PAL VCD.

Here is what i did, I converted my PAL VCDs to SVCD (NTSC Film).
Then i tried to do pulldown on the video to make it 29.97.

I was able to successfully create a DVD with two PAL VCDs, but i found jerkyness here and there in one of the movie especially at the eariler part of the movie.

Is there any better approach to convert PAL VCDs to NTSC VCD-DVDs ?

Thanks
Sathish

I assume you are using TMPGEnc Plus ... if so it is not that hard.

Start up the WIZARD mode and choose the NTSC DVD template. On the advanced tab make sure you select "DO NOT FRAME RATE CONVERSION". Make sure it is set up to do non-interlaced film movie and on the video tab it should look like the example pics I posted on this thread. When encoding make sure you have it do elementry streams.

Now discard the audio output from TMPGEnc Plus ... you will just want to use the video.

Go back to the original PAL VCD and demultiplex it. This can be done with TMPGEnc DVD Author. You should have a 224kbps MP2 audio file. Use BeSweet to convert this to a WAV file. Then convert that WAV file to a new WAV file using the built-in preset of the BeSweet GUI to do the FPS change from PAL 25fps to NTSC 23.976fps

Now you have a new WAV that you can leave as is for the DVD or you can convert it to MP2 or AC-3

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[maduser74]

Appreciate your answers...

Start up the WIZARD mode and choose the NTSC DVD template. On the advanced tab make sure you select "DO NOT FRAME RATE CONVERSION".

The NTSC DVD template will have 29.97 fps right ? Is that OK ? Also if we say "DO NOT FRAME RATE CONVERSION" then won't it keep the source FPS which is 25 fps ?

Then convert that WAV file to a new WAV file using the built-in preset of the BeSweet GUI to do the FPS change from PAL 25fps to NTSC 23.976fps

Here you say 23.97 fps ? How does it get sync ?

[FulciLives]

Appreciate your answers...

Start up the WIZARD mode and choose the NTSC DVD template. On the advanced tab make sure you select "DO NOT FRAME RATE CONVERSION".

The NTSC DVD template will have 29.97 fps right ? Is that OK ? Also if we say "DO NOT FRAME RATE CONVERSION" then won't it keep the source FPS which is 25 fps ?

I just realized you said you were trying to make a SVCD ... I have limited experience with making SVCD so I know this will work with the DVD template otherwise I'm not so sure with the SVCD template.

If you follow what I said you will be converting the 25fps PAL source to a progressive 23.976fps NTSC source with 3:2 pulldown (i.e., 29.970fps).

DO NOT FRAME RATE CONVERSION does not do what you think. Trust me

Then convert that WAV file to a new WAV file using the built-in preset of the BeSweet GUI to do the FPS change from PAL 25fps to NTSC 23.976fps

Here you say 23.97 fps ? How does it get sync ?

You need to change the audio from 25fps to 23.976fps not 29.970fps

NTSC is the same "speed" be it 23.976fps with 3:2 pulldown or true interlaced 29.970fps

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[duhmez]

This will work fine for svcd, just ake sure it's a 4:3 output (letterboxed if need be) and use the unlock template (extras>unlock.mcf"
then you can set the res to 480x480 and all will be well.

The "Do not framerate conversion" means it wont take away frames, or "convert" the framerate and meaintain the same movie length, it meeans it will merely play the same # of frames, slower.

[MikeL2k]

My video that I have is doing the same thing jerkyness every 10-20 seconds or so. I have tried converting it using the standard template in TMPGENc. My video is 23.976 fps and I used the NTSC Film template, but when it completed I got the same result.

I tested the AVI file and it played perfectly. I opened the AVI file in Windows Media Player and clicked on View > Statistics. It said nothing in the Frame Rate box and 23.97 fps in the Actual rate box. Then I did the same thing and opened the converted MPEG file and I got different numbers. This time I got 23.97 in the Frame Rate box and 21 to 24 fps in the Actual rate box.

Do you know what's teh cause of this? Also can you explain what the 3:2 Pulldown option is and the "Do Not Frame Conversion" option?

Thank You.
Mike.

[MikeL2k]

Really all I want to do is convert a DivX video that is 23.976 fps to MPEG-1 23.976 fps, I'm not looking to change the frame rate, but I'm still getting jerky video when using TMPGEnc.

What is the correct setup in TMPGEnc to convert the DivX to MPEG-1 using the same fps? Will the 3:2 Pulldown option or the Do Not Frame Rate Conversion option fix this problem?

Thanks

P.S. Just to clarify, the jerky video is visible when played on a PC or DVD player, not just the DVD player.

[FulciLives]

Really all I want to do is convert a DivX video that is 23.976 fps to MPEG-1 23.976 fps, I'm not looking to change the frame rate, but I'm still getting jerky video when using TMPGEnc.

What is the correct setup in TMPGEnc to convert the DivX to MPEG-1 using the same fps? Will the 3:2 Pulldown option or the Do Not Frame Rate Conversion option fix this problem?

Thanks

P.S. Just to clarify, the jerky video is visible when played on a PC or DVD player, not just the DVD player.

3:2 pulldown is only for MPEG-2 video. You do NOT use that when you do MPEG-1 encoding. The "DO NOT FRAME RATE CONVERSION" option is really only used to change framerates "properly" from progressive NTSC to PAL or vice versa. So you don't want to use that either.

When I fooled around with VCD format (a long long time ago) I could never get smooth motion from the VCD FILM template ... I always used the other VCD template.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[MikeL2k]

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah I notcied that too, but I was worried that if I used the standard VCD Template on a 23.976 fps movie that my sound would be out of sync since it uses 29.970 fps. Have you notcied any out of sync on the audio when doing that or does it work ok?

Thanks, Mike.

[FulciLives]

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah I notcied that too, but I was worried that if I used the standard VCD Template on a 23.976 fps movie that my sound would be out of sync since it uses 29.970 fps. Have you notcied any out of sync on the audio when doing that or does it work ok?

Thanks, Mike.

No you don't get out-of-sync problems because you aren't changing the framerate really ... NTSC at 23.976fps runs the same as NTSC at 29.970fps

Apparently you didn't read up on 3:2 pulldown very well despite listing a couple links to it in that other thread.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[MikeL2k]

Hi,
No I read up on the 3:2 Pulldown but I didn't really understand it, and I'm still not entirly sure what it is. I know the diffrences between interlacing and the differcnes from film to video but I wasn't sure what that had to do with the FPS at first. In other words it all looks good on paper but I find (like I'm sure most everyone on these forums also find) that if you really want to get it right it takes a lot of trial and error before it comes out the way you want it.

So anyway, I did like you said and just used the other template and that surely fixed it. It's just weird how it works. So just to be clear with anyone else that might still be confused, if your converting a video that has a frame rate of 23.976 fps and it appears jerky just use 29.970 as your frame rate to fix the problem.

Thanks again, Mike.

[adam]

Strange, you shouldn't have any problems using the NTSCfilm VCD template unless you are playing it on PAL hardware, which can sometimes be jerky.

If anything I would just chalk this up as there being a problem with your source. If you have a 23.976fps source then you should always encode it to 23.976fps as well if you are going to be playing it back on NTSC hardware. This applies to both mpeg2 and mpeg1.

All hardware should autotelecine 23.976fps mpeg1 footage automatically, whereas with mpeg2 footage the pulldown flag must be present to trigger this function. Either way, 99% of the time it works perfectly.

Converting the 23.976fps footage to 29.97fps will surely work, but you throw away a ton of quality this way, especially with mpeg1.

[kinglerch]

This thread is extremely helpful in understanding the problem with encoding 23.976 fps DVD video. One key is the TMPGENC settings that are normally grayed-out, like the internally 29.97 fps. I totally agree this should say 29.97 fps (internally 23.97 fps).

Also, the 3:2 pulldown when playback is required for smooth playback. And you always have to keep an eye on the settings because TMPGENC will add checkboxes or change the fps setting as different options are chosen.

The big but for me was the DVD authoring. A video at 29.97 fps (internally 23.97 fps) with 3:2 pulldown confused my regular authoring program, Ulead DVD Workshop. Somehow it detected the 23.97 fps and showed the shorter time. When the DVD was authored this way, the time on my DVD player stuttered. It showed 17 minutes but took the proper 22 minutes to play it, stuttering the whole way.

Authoring the same piece of video in TMPGENC DVD Author worked beautifully. Just a note that a correctly made and compliant video may not work in all authoring programs.