Weird problem with FR on PANE50 & MPEG2VCR

[wingnut]

Morning all,

I've been recording some shows with the E50 and importing the resulting dvd ram onto the PC for editing with MPEG2VCR(FEB Build).

I have the VBR mode set to fixed to ensure it doesn't drop to 352 x 576 mid way through a recording.

I've also been transferring some VHS over using the same method.

Now here's the weird part.

Recordings made using Flexible record with a time of under 2 hours are fine and funky when edited in MPEG2VCR, the resulting mpeg is fine as is the ac3 audio, I have made three edited DVDs using this method (authoring the final DVD with menus using DVD LAB)

However, a problem seems to arise when a flexible recording time of over 2 hours is used. Setting the FR time to 130 mins (3 episodes of a show + menu space) records fine and plays back correctly on the E50 however when the resulting VRO is edited in mpeg2vcr and that mpeg is played back all hell breaks loose.

The mpeg plays back in powerDVD correctly from the start with audio in sync but skipping further into the file the picture starts to freeze up whilst the audio continues, video then continues in a freeze frame manner.

I suspected this was the result of either the GOP sequence or the padding stream being lost when mpeg2vcr writes out the new mpeg so I demuxed the original unedited VRO and remuxed it into an mpg using TMPGENC PRO. Then I loaded the resultant mpeg into MPEG2VCR and edited again.

All was well in the world and the resulting mpeg is fine and in sync. I filed the experience under "something to do before editing" and moved onto the next DVD RAM disk.

This was a recording under 2 hours and again required no demuxing/remuxing.

Then last night I came to another Enterprise episode recorded with a FR of 130 minutes. Again I had the same stacatto output. No problem, I thought, and demuxed/remuxed then edited. And the file doesnt play in a choppy way, but it does drift out of audio sync... ARGHH

Suspecting the original VRO I then loaded it into the MPEG GOP Fixer in MPEG2VCR and scanned it, sure enough it is showing over 62000 audio PTS errors. I then ran a fix all option in the GOP fixer and then checked the resulting output mpeg. No audio drift, no staccato playback... and only 10 minutes long...

So at present I suspect the best I can do with this particular mpeg is going to be to sync each section of the show (between comericals), independantly then join them in mpeg2vcr.

My one suspect is that the VRO that had the problem and was fixed by demux/remuxing was from a different RAM disk and I suspect the RAM disk that had the really problimatical episode on it may have a surface fault in part, (it's a caddyless 4.7 DVD RAM that was previously used for data backup on a PC so it had some "handling" marks)

I would have investigated further last night but when my better half woke me from my keyboard at 1:20am I thought it was best to admit defeat for the evening


Can anyone out there shed any light on this, I dont want to be limited to less than 2 hours since I wont get 3 episodes per disk in the final DVD R recording.


Cheers all

Edz

[wingnut]

Not a bump just adding that some research this morning has brought up the option of selecting almost the whole clip in mpeg2vcr and saving it as a new recording.

I will try this this evening but I did already try the mpeg2vcr "format converter" toll which didnt help so I will post any further info I find out.

Cheers all

Ed

[wingnut]

.. nope, that didn't work either.

And another episode recorded on another RAM disk also with FR of 130 mins shows the exact same problem. Meanwhile re-recorded, (hopefully - haven't had a chance to check my timer recording yet), a middle-of-the-night repeat in SP and will see if that edits correctly.

Hmmm.. starting to have conversations with myself, not good

Cheers

Edz

[Kevin abq]

.. nope, that didn't work either.

And another episode recorded on another RAM disk also with FR of 130 mins shows the exact same problem. Meanwhile re-recorded, (hopefully - haven't had a chance to check my timer recording yet), a middle-of-the-night repeat in SP and will see if that edits correctly.

Hmmm.. starting to have conversations with myself, not good

Cheers

Edz

When you start answering back, THEN it's time to worry
If it were a DVD-RW or +RW I'd say maybe it was a media problem. But DVD-RAM uses fault tolerance similar to a hard disk. It's the only format that does. Not very likely it's bad. I once had huge grease blobs on the underside from a factory lube of the recorder drawer gears and that DVD-RAM recorded it like a champ without a hiccup or sync problem.

[wingnut]

Cheers for that

I think you're right, last night I timer recorded in SP (2 hour mode) on the disk with marks on it. This evening popped it in my PC RAM drive and used mpeg2vcr to edit the show, (no de/re muxing didnt even copy it off the ram disk).. result .. in sync and with no stuttering.

Hmmm... lets take a flight into hypotheticals...

I suspect its FR mode over 2 hours or something similar, I know from VHS transfers that FR under 2 hours is editable with no ill effects so this may be something to do with the bitrate being borderline for the resolution. With the unit in fixed VBR mode it cant drop to 352 x 576 so maybe its dropping / otherwise amending frames and writing info into the padding stream. When the show is edited the padding stream is lost and .. bingo.. dodgy mpeg.

Although this doesnt explain why I can select the whole show as one clip and save that as a new mpeg with no ill effects. I would expect mpeg2vcr to either dump the padding stream or not. I suppose it COULD be a problem with cutting mid gop..

Anyhoo for now I'll record in two hour mode, the picture is fine from digital sat' and I think an "hour" show will still come in at 1.3 GB per episode (unit insists on 256 AC3 and I dont want to transcode to 192 as I've found it can sometimes loose the dolby surround tracks) meaning I can get 3 episodes and a menu on each DVD, worse case I will run it through a very low DVD shrink.

Now to wait until Saturday to get a new VCR then that tape collection is going to get transferred !!!

PS. anyone after DVD RAM media should check out www.blankdiskshop.co.uk just picked up 3 caddied datalife 9.4GB RAMS for £20 including postage.. nifty smoked grey cases too.

now... off to bed.............


Cheers all

Ed

[wingnut]

Well its me ... again!

Hmm I've been trying methods to find out what causes this and why it happens intermittently.

I also found that I had a copy of the mediaalbum SE software atwork (from a panasonic dvd ram backup drive) so I gave that a whirl.

It works perfectly even on the DVD RAM I couldn't previously edit without glitches.

As a bonus since Sky Digital in the UK use 4:3 ratio for adverts and 16:9 for Enterprise it splits up the resulting program into a series of numbered mpegs at the point that the ratio changes, (e.g. if the program is titled "twilight" on the DVD RAM, it would become twilight.mpg - twilight(2).mpg etc), the odd numbered mpgs being the show and even being the adverts making ad cutting a breeze in mpeg2vcr.

The only problem is that mediaalbum transcodes the AC3 audio to mpeg audio ... Nooooooooo

So I then tried the copytool that also came with the mediaalbum software, this allows the copying of specific programs from DVDRAM onto the hard disk - still in VRO format.

I then edited the resulting VRO in mpeg2vcr using version (V3.14 built on 02-18-2004) the resulting mpeg started fine but then went into staccato playback again.

So I researched again and found that all the people who where reporting using mpeg2vcr to edit VRO files where using version 3.13 of mpeg2vcr. That is no longer available from their download support area but (V3.14 built on 10-28-2003) is. I downloaded the earlier version and installed it then re-edited the same VRO file. The resulting mpeg is in sync with smooth playback.

It's presently too early to say if this is THE fix or just a fluke but I'll keep researching.

Meanwhile mediaalbum is pretty cool otherwise, since you can rename and organise your DVD RAMS very easily and for quickly dubbing mpeg onto the PC or transferring to DVD-RW, (to get it off a RAM for later watching), its hunky dorey in fact it may be the solution for those who dont mind the lack of AC3 audio - which could be fixed by demuxing, transcoding and re-encoding to AC3 but thats a generation loss and a whole other story....


Cheers All

Edz

[mazinz]

well it could just be mpeg2vcr. I recently made a post (no replies) and i was having similar errors like yours.

What i was running into was that i was joining 2 vro clips and sometime after a few (or many) minutes the audio would unexplainably just cut off and then be silent. It was really odd. And slightly before that i had trouble with editing.

I never had problems before. So what i may do is dl that slightly older version you mentioned (10/24) and give that a whirl and see if it fixes anything

[wingnut]

Afternoon,

will have a look at that post you made, hopefully the older version will help, the url to download it is

http://www.mpegvideowizard.com/vcr/10-31/mpeg2vcr.exe

or alternately go to www.womble.com then downloads

Cheers

Edz

[wingnut]

Me again, again...


well it appears I'm having limited success with the older version of mpeg2vcr. Here is my recent log

Resident Evil
recorded from Sky Digitial 16:9 fixed aspect ratio, used MPEG2VCR to open the VRO on the DVD RAM Directly, selected the movie start and end and copied to clipboard. Opened the clipboard version and saved out the movie. In PowerDVD 5 the movie plays in sync with no apparent glitching, pixelation or staccato playback

Enterprise: Cogenitor
recorded from digital channel 4 16:9 fixed aspect ratio, used MPEG2VCR to open the VRO on the DVD RAM Directly. Selected each part without the comercials and copied each to clipboard. Then opened the last section and dropped the other parts onto it, selected all of the resulting episode and clicked record. In PowerDVD 5 the episode plays in sync with no apparent glitching, pixelation or staccato playback

Enterprise: Twilight
recorded from sky one 16:9 / 4:3 switching aspect ratio (comercials are broadcast in 4:3), used MPEG2VCR to open the VRO on the DVD RAM Directly. Selected each part without the comercials and copied each to clipboard. Then opened the last section and dropped the other parts onto it, selected all of the resulting episode and clicked record. In PowerDVD 5 the episode plays in sync with no apparent glitching, pixelation or staccato playback. ** NOTE ** The first time I tried this procedure with the "latest" mpeg2vcr it glitched all over the place, played back in "staccato" playback and went out of sync. When I tried with this version of mpeg2vcr it was ok, (see previous postings for more information)

Dr Who Genesis of the daleks
recorded from VHS 4:3 fixed aspect ratio, episodes 1 and 2 on one dvd ram episodes 3-6 on another all in sp 2 hour mode.. Oh dear the problems I've had... Tried the above methods for the first two episodes. Episode one was fine, episode two pixelates part way through, (not in the original file), and then drifts out of sync. Tried episode 3 and that goes into staccato playback. I am now exporting via moviealbum and will then transcode the mpeg audio to ac3 for the finished DVD, (the audio is mono anyway since its a 1975 TV show and being recorded from a 13 year old VHS tape)

The challenge continues..........


Cheers

Edz

[wingnut]

Just to continue the Wingnut monologues...

The more I think about this the more it reminds me of my first attempts to encode AVI files and accidently using open GOPS. I can't check at the moment but I wonder if I check the "problematical" recordings I have I'll find they are open GOP and its pot luck whether they will edit seamlessly. My guess if this is true is that mediaAlbum restreams the mpeg video file when creating the mpegs and somehow closes the GOPS, (anyone out there who knows more about the internal structure of MPEG2 and can tell me the likelyhood of all this ?)

These restreamed GOPS when edited maintain their sync correctly.

Anyone out there who has no problems editing VROS - who is not "top and tailing" them but actually cutting the video into sections - say to remove commercials - and is maintaining the original AC3 audio without re-encoding the mpeg who could post the following:

Version of mpeg2vcr (womble) or alternate software used
Settings of Panasonic DVD Recorder (assume auto vbr is set to fixed)
Recording mode: XP,SP,LP,EP or FR
Procedure used: copied over using explorer, opened on DVD RAM, exported using mediaalbum copytool etc

Cheers all

Edz

[mazinz]

ok i tried the earlier versions of mpeg2vcr-no luck and it seemed that no matter which one i installed they all said ver 3.14. I ended up running the film into my capture card and did it that way.

with regards to your second question

them but actually cutting the video into sections - say to remove commercials - and is maintaining the original AC3 audio without re-encoding the mpeg who could post the following:

this is what i used to do with my vro files. I would just copy/paste the vro onto my desktop, rename it to a vob or mpg and edit away on womble (3.14). I would edit, combine bits and pieces, etc. All would be fine and i would still retain the ac3 sound. My problem, like yours only occured these past 2 times which is what makes it puzzling. Perhaps those ram disc are not as good as they say they are?

I own the dmr-hs2 deck and you can only highspeed dub with xp recording, that is what i would do (the dmr-hs2 deck would re-record any program not done this way, losing quality). Usually my films are on 2 ram disc as not many are longer then 2 hours anyway. I then took these, pop them in my liteon drive in the pc, find the folder and copy/paste the vro file out of it onto my desktop somewhere.

settings on my deck are to fixed

[wingnut]

Well I've found a solution of sorts....
My recorder is busted

Not long after I started this thread and my Star Wars VHS conversion I noticed that occasionally I would get some macro / coloured blocks on my recordings. I then made my first mistake and ASSUMED this was something to do with VHS capturing.

I then noticed it creeping onto digital satellite recordings and then analogue recordings. I then ASSUMED this was the new datalife/datasafe DVD RAM disks I had bought so stopped using them in favour of panasonic uncaddied RAMs.

Then I recorded CSI/Law & Order and had a frustrating time watching them as they would ............................pause............macro block....stutter... and then continue playing. I cleaned the disk and recorded a short sample with no problem. So I then timeslipped the Tv for a while. After about 4 minutes of recording I could hear the head inside the machine going bonkers making the sort of "seeking" noises you hear with a skipping dvd or CD then it would drop out of time slip and back to live TV. On replaying a bit of the disk I also noticed drop outs, blocking and stutters. This happened on all the DVD RAM disks I tried:

Panasonic 4.7 Uncaddied
Panasonic 9.4 caddied
Datasafe/Life 9.4 Caddied
Generic 4.7 Uncaddied.

It is at present winging its way back to my supplier who, if Panasonic are true to their word, will be able to return it to Panasonic and then issue me with a new machine, (I'm not happy with a 3-6 week repair/replacement time for a unit that's around 8 weeks old and that hasn't worked properly for 3 of those weeks), not sure if they will be able to send me a new E50 since it's now been replaced with the E55 in the UK but time will tell.

One thing is still holding up though, customer service at www.shopatdigital.co.uk is remaining first class, Panasonic too seem to be trying their best to keep customers happy.

Ah well, VHS transfers are on hold and back to capturing TV in composite with my 128 PRO ATI card for now....

Cheers

Edz

[wingnut]

The story continues....

A new panasonic E55 is winging its way to me for next week

Hopefully no problems will present themselves and I can get on with this mountain of VHS transfering that needs to be done !

Once again a big for www.shopatdigital.co.uk and for the helpdesk at panasonic uk who tried their best to help me out.

Cheers

Edz