YOUR DVD’S ARE DYING !

[lordsmurf]

This is all more myth than fact.

The problem here is normally your DVD player laser giving way (mostly likely) or the fact that the media was ALWAYS bad, just you never checked it.

[FOO]

I have hundreds of Princo 1X DVDs 1-3 yrs old and have yet to go grab one
and have it not play. I'm not willing to go play them all just to check.

Maybe i'm screwed later , who knows

[tonx]

you wanna die in 2 months? then buy princo!
you wanna die in 3 months? then buy princo!
you wanna die in 4/5/6/7... you get the picture?
these bastards have cost me a fortune & no end
of pissing about.
you wanna live? then spend a little more (G04)

[bigshotceo]

Reminds me of a buddy of mine who used to work at a local electronics store. This old lady comes in (by his account she was probably around 80) and wants to buy some blank vhs tapes to record tv shows on. She asks him: how long will these things last for? Him: well, about ten to fif..(looks at her wrinkled face, figures her approximate age) forever....

[TuxOmatic]

LOL!! Thanks, bigshotceo, now that was funny . . . and insightful. I remember I used to worry about how long my floppy disks would last. Now I have boxes of them in my garage crammed full of data and have no desire to ever use them. Everything of importance is on different media. And later, if I live long enough, I'll transfer stuff to whatever is currently being used. (I'm not sure why. After I die everything will probably get thrown into a dumpster.)

[zorankarapancev]

I started this thread because I found that recently more and more professionals involved in video production and post-production are getting calls from their clients that the DVD discs delivered several years ago don’t play correctly any more or don’t play at all. This is being claimed regardless of whether the discs were TDK/Maxell/Sony… or whether they were bare, had a label, were printed, etc.
Those DVD’s contained important corporate, as well as, family events (Weddings, Anniversaries, Eulogies…), events that happen once in a lifetime and need to be archived for the future. I thought that it would be in your best interest to alert you about this fact and ask you to check your oldest DVD recordings.

Now, I know that “ignorance is bliss”, but I didn’t realize the extent of this in our web community. It is beyond my believe that a lot of people are buying a product that is sold as media with a lifetime of 100 years (explicitly marketed as a best option for archiving), having a numerous ongoing and incurable problems with it and not even want to raise the question about the manufacturers claims of the life expectancy of their products. Not to mention that they are obviously very happy with the present situation and are not taking a chance to discuss eventual improvement.

I understand that they use recordable DVD’s for recording movies, TV programs and sport events. The eminent failure of the their recorded DVD’s will never be an emotionally catastrophic event because they can always re-record those favorite programs. But, do they realize that their most favorite life events that happened or will happen to them are probably doomed to disappear forever if they are preserved on the very same recordable DVD’s?

In my opinion, the only way to correct this unsatisfactory situation with recordable DVD’s is to put constant pressure on the manufacturers by informing the public and discussing this issue. We have the right to expose, on a regular basis, the brands of recordable DVD that are sold to us with fraudulent claims of their quality and longevity. As consumers we have the right to demand the quality that we were promised at the time that we purchased the product. We therefore have to preserve this right to ourselves, to our clients as well as for the future generations to come.

[indolikaa]

Dude, even I don't have that much time.

Would one of our resident M.S./Ph.D. Chemists please explain to me how the INORGANIC crystalline material used in DVD+RW and DVD-RW discs is giong to 'deteriorate' over time. How do metallic substances die? How does a crystalline compound made from silver, indium, antimony and tellurium sluff?

Anyone?

[disturbed1]

I'm neither an M.S nor PH.D, but...

In the disc making process, the dye layer is spun onto the disc. Improper set calibrations can lead to deterioration, once it's played because of less dye towards the outer edge. Every time you play the disc, heat is applied to it. If the dye layer is substandard to begin with, then over time it "whittles" away.

Dirty dye, cheap plastic, cheap silver can also cause this to happen before it's played. If the pressing process (plastic, silver, dyed plastic) is flawed, air can become trapped in the layers, and over time seperate the layers. You can peel the layers apart like flaking paint (Long Ten, and fake MXLs do this).

That's why all of my customer's projects are stored on both DVD-R and DVD-RAM (cartridge), and stored in an envorinmently controled storage area with no UV light. Once a year (give or take) we check and verify the media. Over time I'm adding Taiyo Yuden back ups to replace the failed Riteks I've found (225 out of 3,600).

I offer an insurance policy, every disc is gaurenteed for life. If it goes bad (not scratched/finger printed), they ship it to me, I ship a replacement back. Free of charge.


My first CD burner was a 2x SCSI drive, IDE cd burners weren't available yet. The same media problems plauged us then (94?) as they do now. It just takes time for the manufactorers to develope a better product.

Even today, I wouldn't say a CD will last a lifetime. Though I do have some MAM Gold from 95 that are perfect still.

[indolikaa]

That's a good explanation, Disturbed1.

But, I thought the phase-change material in CD-RW and DVD±RW discs was bonded to the surface (similar to sputtering but baked instead of bombarded) rather than spun-off (similar to lacquering) from a liquid solution.

Free oxygen notwithstanding I'd have thought rewritables would last longer because of this.

[disturbed1]

Don't know about the RW part, just the -R part (should of stated that above).

One would think an RW would be of higher quality though. Not sure.

I've only owned 5 CD-RWs, and 6 DVD-RWs in my life, so not too familar with them.

I'm sure mitsui, tdk, or maxell would have some tech docs on the process. Philips (if you can find it) has great tech docs on CD-R, CD-RW.

[indolikaa]

Philips does. I've seen them before, they even have the -RW discs under a high-power microscope. Problem is I CANT FIND THEM!

I bookmarked them and then proceeded to reformat my drive a few days later. Typical Indolikaa.

[gmatov]

Does anyone remember that the shelf life of a new, unburnt disk is 7 years?

If one that has been kept in the dark, untouched by human hands only lasts 7 years, how in the hell can you expect a burnt disk to last 100 years?

What did you do, pasteurize it with the laser?

I have CDs that no longer work, haven't been into DVD long enough to even hazard a guess, but do not think they last a 100, nor even 10 years.

Book I read 20-30 years ago said the same thing, sci-fi, but "How were we supposed to know they'd only last 7 years?" Prescient?

Cheers,

George

[disturbed1]

7 Years, that's funny. Can't say I've read that.



TDK only has a ONE YEAR warranty. Fuji and Verbatim offer Lifetime. My branded Princo and Pioneer don't have warranty info on the jewel cases.

[BJ_M]

for the heck of it -- i stuck some really dirty marked up riteks in the dishwasher and gave them the full wash cycle .. i have a dishwasher that really heats up the water (85 or 90 C ).... used electrolsol tabs ...

they came out perfect -- !!!

so i have 5 of them i sent through 5 or 6 wash cycles ... no problems at all excpet one which must of been touching something cus it has a wear mark on front ..

[Schmendrick]

@ indolikaa:

Would one of our resident M.S./Ph.D. Chemists please explain to me how the INORGANIC crystalline material used in DVD+RW and DVD-RW discs is giong to 'deteriorate' over time. How do metallic substances die? How does a crystalline compound made from silver, indium, antimony and tellurium sluff?

I am a chemist! But I have to tell you that the dye/phase change material used in recordable media are not inorganic but organic materials therfore they are prone to unwanted changes due to modification by chemicals (compounds which diffuse to this dye, like I explained above) and degradation triggered by UV ("don't leave your records in the sun..."). The recordable disc constists out of layers of different material. If the stability of these layers are too weak or the sealing at the edge of the disc don't hold e.g. the aluminum reflective layer will oxidize. Therefore e.g. some old CD-Rs which apparently even had a thin gold-layer as reflective material does not deteriorate. I have old CD-Rs from 1995 which still don't show defects.

Therefore my advice would be if you want to store irreplaceable material: store it on entirely different media know their longevity like DVD-RAM or even a hard disk drive and check the readability at least every other year. I doubt that both media type fail at the same time. But if you just store a song or a movie whats the big deal if loose a few of them?!

CU

Schmendrick

[Will Hay]

Defense spoke of this months ago.

Who?
Will

[dcsos]

I am now seeing SMURF's point that this is all anecdotal

What started this thread is the ANGER of the fella
at the UNPROFESSIONAL reliaibility of this MEDIUM

We would do better to use our time to read up on the BRANDS tested and reliably used on the left column rather that harp on the bad endlessly

BJ_M did you use any fabric conditioner? who would want a wrinkled DVD?
and replicated fare is quite durable compared with the + or - R's

[Burgerking]

C'mon guys, these things have a limited lifecycle. In a previous life, I was in the CDR-business & I wrote my first CD's back in 1992 (that's when CDR was launched). All depends of course what you your media for. Most of my software, I'll burn on cheap CD's. I don't care if they last no longer than 2 years, the software will be outdated anyway.

However, when it comes to my precious music collection, I want them still to play within 10 years. I have burnt Audio CD's from 1992 which start showing errors (there are tools to measure the C2 - correctable - errors), notably from Philips. Taiyo Yuden's & Kodak's are still 100% OK. If you want to keep them 'for a lifetime', buy Phatalo-cyanine based disks on gold layer & burn them at a speed no higher than 4x.

I know of disks who - immediately - give read errors right after burning them - Princo, Lead Data a.o. certainly at high speed. And CD is mature technology. From what I read recently on ageing tests, matters are far worse on DVD. Or maybe you just don't care if a movie (wedding, anniversary, your kids - if you are none yourself) you burnt today is not readable anymore in 5 years time?

[smearbrick1]

Ok... I've just come back from the future (100 hundred years)... and here's what I have to say...

The dvd's they said would last didn't. It doesn't matter anyway because this format will be replace 20 times! (maybe less). As far as whatever else happens in the future, I'm not sure... I was too busy testing DVD-/+R discs.

[indolikaa]

If you want to keep them 'for a lifetime', buy Phatalo-cyanine based disks on gold layer & burn them at a speed no higher than 4x.

That's nice, but you forgot to provide some information. Like who makes them and where we can get them?

I'm waiting...

[BJ_M]

I am now seeing SMURF's point that this is all anecdotal

What started this thread is the ANGER of the fella
at the UNPROFESSIONAL reliaibility of this MEDIUM

We would do better to use our time to read up on the BRANDS tested and reliably used on the left column rather that harp on the bad endlessly

BJ_M did you use any fabric conditioner? who would want a wrinkled DVD?
and replicated fare is quite durable compared with the + or - R's

fabric conditioner in a dishwasher ?

[indolikaa]

fabric conditioner in a dishwasher ?

Dishwasher. Washer. What's the difference anyway.

What I want to know is did you use Rinse-Aid or not? Because if not you probably just wasted some perfectly good hot water. I mean, how do you avoid mineral deposits?

I am a chemist!

You bunsen burner fool, you.

[BJ_M]

fabric conditioner in a dishwasher ?

Dishwasher. Washer. What's the difference anyway.

What I want to know is did you use Rinse-Aid or not? Because if not you probably just wasted some perfectly good hot water. I mean, how do you avoid mineral deposits?

I am a chemist!

You bunsen burner fool, you.

i got a great water softener system -- no mineral deposits !

of couse we did the dishs at the same - no point to only wash dvd disks !

have to do a experiment to see if baked on egg interacts with riteks

(i really did wash some though - no joke)

[solarfox]

Even if they do have a short shelf life, the format will be replaced by something better long before they die. Either blue-ray, or multiple layers, or whatever else is around the corner.

Y'know, I keep seeing comments like this every time the subject of media lifespan comes up... and every time it does, I find myself having to wonder:

Do you guys really have so much free time on your hands, and so few other things to do with your lives, that you don't mind the prospect of having to keep re-transferring and re-transferring your media collection to new formats every few years? Maybe this isn't so much of an issue for you if you've only got a couple dozen discs' worth of material and it'll only take you a couple of long weekends...

Those of us who have hundreds of hours worth of material to archive would really prefer not to have to spend every waking hour maintaining our collections because by the time we get to the end of converting our VHS library to DVD before the tapes die, the DVD's are hitting the end of their life and now we have to go back and convert everything to Blu-Ray (or whatever) before the DVD-R's die... and then a year or two later we'll have to start over and convert those to X-Ray, or HoloMem Crystal, or whatever, before those discs die, and then...

[smearbrick1]

What about those people who had 5,000 5 + inch floppies? What did they do with them? I realize these had a much smaller capacity, but early adopters of this media type probably a couple hundred of these laying around when everything went to 3.5... or even cd? Did they back them up to the new media? I doubt there are many people using this media anymore.

Maybe this was a poor comparison. Magnetic media doesn't really stand the test of time as optical media would.

[dcsos]

Neat anecdote about a DVD job....

Delivered the DVD-R to client..
Wouldn't play in settop

Burnt a +R
delivered to client
wouldn't play

Now I asked .. what happens when he tries to play..
He says it says NO DISC

I am wondering how this could happen..SO we hand carried a-R to the client and it played right away!

TURNED OUT HE HAD LEFT THE PREVIOUS TWO BURNS IN A HOT SEALED CAR ON THE REAR WINDOW SHELF IN THE JEWEL PACK DIRECTLY!!
THIS PROVES THAT A LITTLE SUNLIGHT GOES ALONG WAY TO DAMAGING DISCS>>IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBT..SHIP in a BLACK AMRAY CASE insteasd of JEWEL PACK for SUNLIGHT PROTECTION

[Kingnog]

Wow, zorankarapancev....If you really feel that strongly about it, go ahead, complain, start a revolt

But I'm getting the feeling that most people are happy with the life of their DVD's or dont mind the "false" advertizing to the extent that you seem to.

[MOVIEGEEK]

I'm no chemist but I do know that magnetic tape will last alot longer than organic based optical media,my 20+ year old audio and video cassettes are proof of that.
Why don't the manufacturers add metal particles to the dye and do away with organic material so their properties are more like those of a pressed disc?This "lifetime" or "100 year" guarantee is pure marketing bullsh*t,has anyone received a replacement on defective discs?

[JohnnyCNote]

I'm no chemist but I do know that magnetic tape will last alot longer than organic based optical media,my 20+ year old audio and video cassettes are proof of that.

The problem with tape is in the equipment that plays it rather than the medium itself. It can be damaged by mechanical problems with the equipment, e.g. it can get wrinkled when dirt builds up on the capstan and is sensitive to magnetic fields. The tape itself is much more fragile than an optical disk. While many of us know how to properly care for magnetic tape and the devices that use it, the average user is not as inclined. Also, most VCR's are much harder to clean than an audio tape machine, with the exception of in-dash cassette players, which can be very hard to clean.

So there are advantages and disadvantages to all media. Personally, I much prefer optical disks to magnetic tape, having used both extensively over the years.....

[Magua]

Does it even matter, we will all be using blu-ray in 5 years anyways