VCR/TBC Issues (LENGTHY)

[Zeek]

After (too) much looking and waiting, I finally picked up a JVC HR-S7800 VCR this past week. The built in TBC was what I was waiting for and now I have it, but it seems I may be having some issues with the VCR itself. Here goes it:

I ran some test clips of the "before and after" variety - same everything except for the VCR I used. Caps are done through a camcorder with A->D passthrough and on to firewire. I tried to vary the quality of the tapes a bit to give myself an idea of what kind of benefit I was getting from the JVC. The "before" VCR was a lousy Orion Walmart, mono-sound/do-nothing special special. The "after" one is the HR-S7800. The first thing that caught my eye was the very significant vertical roll and jitter (both) that occured with the JVC unit and not the cheapy. My initial thought was "no way", but then I pretty quickly figured out the Video Stabilization option, with a little help from Lord Smurf's website.

Unfortunately, you can't use Video Stabilization AND TBC at the same time, but the interesting things here for me are 1) Stabilization option actually seems more valuable a tool for me than the TBC during much of the time and 2) Some aspects of the cheapy VCR were actually visually better than the JVC! (no vertical roll) Does this make sense?

To clarify, I'm quite happy enough with my JVC purchase. The hi-fi sound and additional toys that came with it alone make it worth the price. And I should note also that several of my test tapes are old or are ones that friends made for me using EP. I'm just floored that the (major) jitter I see with the JVC doesn't occur when using the Orion. I can (mostly) correct it to the level of the appearance on the Orion by using the video stabilization, but then I lose the benefit of TBC. Bleeccch.

Another thing I noticed:
On my most recent test of what must be a particularly bad tape (video calibration notifier flashes on quite a bit), during capture I notice the occasional major screech where there will be either freeze frames (sometimes for several seconds) or even a blank screen for a minute. (This description is to the best of my memory, anyway.) Following this, whatever it is, there is the appearance (on the capture screen) of a major de-synch between audio and video. I mean, it looks totally guffawed - and yet, during playback of the captured file, all seems to be relatively OK! I say relatively, because it seems too good to be true and I'm probably just doubting it/myself. And this is without that TBC running, remember. How's that doing? If all's well that ends well, great. It's just that if I spend hours capturing this stuff, only to come back later on and find out the audio and video are six miles apart, I'm not going to be happy. Anyway to sum everything up, here's what I'm asking here, along with a few extras:


1. Does it make sense that the JVC would produce the major vertical roll and jitter, and yet the Wal-Marty Orion would not? Maintenance issues on the JVC, maybe? This jitter does not at all occur on the Orion when attached to my computer, nor is it seen on the cheap-o Emerson VCR my girlfriend has hooked up to her TV. Seems like the unit that should handle the job best is actually handling it the worst in this case. Very confusing...

2. Bearing in mind A) that my best results with the JVC have so far been achieved with video stabilization on (and, by necessity, TBC off), and B) I may still potentially be having some problems in the loss of synch department, does anyone think I'd benefit noticeably from a standalone TBC? Man, I'd really rather not blow the $300, but I blew $185 on the VCR and am already thousands into this, so if it would really help, I'd be stupid not to. Those seemingly glitched caps that ended up alright after all were satisfactory in quality at the end of the day. If it all goes that way, I'll be fine. But there's always the maybe...

3. How does one explain the final product being "OK" (better, at least) after the initial appearance of de-synch following the glitches during capture? (TBC was off, remember.)

4. On a side note, I'm aware of the physical differences b/w S-VHS and regular VHS (400/230). General consensus is to use S-VHS cable no matter what your source. (I am.) However, will that really make a difference, considering that my source is what it is? Is S-VHS signal "cleaner" or something?

Apologies in advance for the length of this. If anyone has any thoughts on any of it, please send them my way. Thanks...

Zeeker

[Bob W]

I have two JVC VCR's and had similar problems. I finally just gave up and bought a Mitsubishi HS-U748 S-vhs VCR. Now my VCR to DVDR conversions are rock solid and look fantastic. I have an external TBC ( http://www.avtoolbox.com/avt-8710.htm ) and leave it on all the time however with this VCR I could even do without it.

[MrMungus]

Was it a new unit?

Just for clarity: it's s-video cable not svhs cable.

[Zeek]

@ Bob W: That's just splendid news. Yay. I'm thinking of trying out the AVT-8710 by avtoolbox to see if it helps. I'll update here if I end up getting it.

MrMungus: Hehe...I wish. There's almost no such thing as a new high-end JVC w/ TBC built in. I got it off of e-bay, supposedly slightly used. I've read about other people (in addition to Bob) having similar problems, though - so who knows.

Just to clarify, is it not true that the built-in TBC's on these VCR's correct either vertical OR horizontal jitter, but not both? I'm pretty sure I remember reading that stand-alone's are better for one axis and built-in's are better for the other, but I'm not 100% on this and don't know which is which.

[lordsmurf]

You read that observation at lordsmurf.com most likely. JVC does more horiz while a dedicated TBC does more vert.

[MrMungus]

MrMungus: Hehe...I wish. There's almost no such thing as a new high-end JVC w/ TBC built in. I got it off of e-bay, supposedly slightly used. I've read about other people (in addition to Bob) having similar problems, though - so who knows.

Well, I hate to say it, but I'd bet this is the cause of your problem. Return it.

[Zeek]

Well, Mungus, I hate to say it too - but you ARE right, dammit.

Today I rigged up 3 separate VCR's - the JVC and 2 mono cheapy's: an Orion and an Emerson piece of crap that were both lying around here. The Hi-Fi SOUND on the JVC absolutely blew the other two away but, in the video dept., the 2 cheap-o's are actually beating the shit out of the JVC! I'm getting vertical jitter, major edge noise, and the screeching/freeze-frames I described earlier on the JVC, but not on the other two. Unfortunately, the JVC was an ebay "as is" deal, so I may end up eating it on this one.



Anyway, I spoke to Lord Smurf and am hoping it's just maintenance/tracking issues. Dropped it off at a JVC shop today and they seem to feel they can fix it up no prob for about $50. The video quality on the crapola VCR's is actually really not all that horrible. If I could just get that, along with the sound from the JVC - I'll be happy.

[racerxnet]

Are the other VCR's HiFi units or do they record the sound linearly? If they are Hi Fi then the JVC will not have a huge advantage in recording sound helically on the tape. Output should be about the same.

[Zeek]

No, both are low-end, low-everything, mono sound cheapies. If they were hi-fi, at this point, I'd probably consider just using one of them. Oh well..

[etecnifibre]

Been a while on this thread. Found it on Yahoo. I was thinking about getting a JVC with TBC, but now I'm not sure. I'm looking at either the SR-V101US or the HR-S7900. Can someone offer some sort of advice?

[etecnifibre]

Nevermind on my last response, just read LordSmurf's site. Good info.

[gshelley61]

The built in TBC's in some consumer VCR's, camcorders, and DVD recorders are line time base correctors... not full frame (two or four field) correctors. Line TBC's are not nearly as robust as full frame/sync units (and they don't generally defeat copy protection signals, either).

The 2MB TBC/DNR processor in the JVC 7800 model is not as effective as the 4MB version found in the 9600, 9800,9900, and the 9911. Note that JVC HR-S9911U is still a current model and is available new.

The 7800 was not a very good unit compared to the 7600 it replaced. There were many complaints about that fact. I don't know if the 7900 was any better. The 9000 series VCR's with the 4MB TBC/DNR "DigiPure Technology" processor produce a much better picture than the 7800.

For old EP VHS tapes in bad shape, you will probably need a standalone full frame TBC like the Datavideo TBC-1000 or the AVTools AVT-8710 in order to avoid dropped frames and sync problems. There are professional broadcast TBC's (Hotronic, For-A, Leitch/DPS, etc.) that will also do the job but you have to know exactly what type to look for.

[lordsmurf]

The 7900 was pretty slick. I liked it. But not as much as the 9800.

[etecnifibre]

So, for what I need it for, just to ensure my basketball games are getting output at a better quality than with my cheap ass Sony, what would you recommend (Between the 7900 and 9800)?

[lordsmurf]

The only one made is the HR-S9911 and the SR-V10U (7000 successor).

Either type is fine.

[etecnifibre]

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=335817&is=REG
This one here? Thanks. As soon as I get a few bucks in my PayPal account, I plan on donating to digitalfaq for all your help.

[gshelley61]

Factory reconditioned 9911's $249 free shipping

http://www.ecost.com/ecost/ecsplash/shop/detail.asp?action=detail&dpno=436971#scroll

[etecnifibre]

Thanks for the link, now my next question, what was wrong with the reconditioned models before, and will there be something wrong with them again? And who was the reconditioning done by?

[studtrooper]

Factory Reconditioned/Refurbished items could be from a number of things. Examples can range from a customer return for no other reason then to get his/her money back or units that arrived at the store broke. Either way, they get sent back to the source, cleaned up, get passed through QC, and offered at a discount. Reconditioned models almost always are as good as retail but don't have that new smell/look that you get from pulling a shiny new unit out of its box

[etecnifibre]

Great. Thanks again to everyone for all the help.