Expectations: MiniDV -> DV

[deepor]

With just a couple of DVD burns under my belt, I'm admittedly a newb. I'm hoping by learning the right techniques and tools, I'll get to where I want to be. But I've begun to wonder if my expectations are set too high.

My primary objective with my new DVD writer is to convert hours of MiniDV video of my children and family to a set of focused videos on DVD that I can distribute to family and save forever.

Having recorded digitally, I assumed I could get to DVD digitally without any loss in quality. Heck, I just watched Lord of the Rings I and II on DVD with amazing resolution and color. What's the big deal with getting my crummy DV on the DVD?

I used NeroVision Express (v2.1.0.8) to capture video from a Sony MiniDV to DV-AVI Type-1. I used NVE to Make DVD... (DVD-Video), encoding with Quality=Standard play (5073 kbps). First, time I encoded directly to DVD - I think; the second time I encoded to disk and then burned the files to DVD. Both times I noticed some degradation in the quality of the video. I don't know the precise words to describe - maybe a little pixelation, maybe a little jumpy, less smooth movement compared to the original and even the interim AVI.

So, I'm guessing there are some things I can do to improve the quality - please provide suggestions! But, is it not realistic to expect the DVD to have the quality of the original DV? Why not?

THANKS

[ghosty6]

I began like you and now I make perfect DVD's from DV.

Here it is:

1.Capture from firewire to PC using Ulead studio 7
2. Make changes if required in Studio 7
3. Frameserve from Studio 7 to Procoder 1.5
4. Author and Burn files from Procoder with Ulead DVD workshop.

I have used every Encoder available, however Procoder used correctly will be no diff in quality from the original.

Persit and use the guides, it takes a long time to master it.

[daamon]

Hi deepor,

ghosty6 is describing the basic process of capture, edit (crop, add fades, background music etc.), encode (step 3 is a little more than encoding - read up on frameserving), author (making chapters and menus) and burn to disc. Possible tools are also mentioned.

It's common acceptance (though not totally), that it's best to use the right tools for each step.

This link: https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=120013 is a guide by Baldrick, the site Administrator and may be of interest.

Also, see this link:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=725433#725433

...for the steps I take to go from DV cam to DVD disk with menus and good quality. I don't claim it's the best way or the right way as there's loads of ways and loads of different tools. But it will give you a good insight into what you need to do, typical tools and settings.

If your home movie is over 100 mins, you'll need to lower the bitrate as time and bitrate are the only factors determining how big the finished article is (too big, and it won't fit on a DVD disc). Check out the DVDRHelp Bitrate Calculator - found in the Tools section.

Hope that provides a broader insight into what to use, and how to go about it.

But, is it not realistic to expect the DVD to have the quality of the original DV?

As you're encoding (compressing) the AVI, the DVD won't have exactly the same quality.

However, it is possible to get it so close that you won't care about the difference. It's all in the bitrate - as a rough guide, higher = better. But read up before you embark.

Good luck.

[proxyx99]

Keep your bitrate not lower then 6k avg. Good to encode 8k CBR if space/length is not an issue (for best quality). Always use highest quality settings (if you screw up you cannot go to WalMart to repurchase your home movie...!).

[deepor]

OK, first I'll try adjusting the bit rate settings. NVE supports a setting of 8k or 9k for high quality - not sure if my DVD player can handle it, but we'll see.

How do pro movies (e.g., Lord of the Rings) get 2 hrs of such hi quality on a DVD?

I'll also take a look at the links you provided; initially, though, I'm hesitant to invest the time/money to replace my toolset, unless there is a clear quality advantage in some of the tools mentioned. I'd love to hear more if folks have had success with Nero.

Thanks for your help!

[daamon]

Hi deepor,

I've just noticed this:

...capture video from a Sony MiniDV to DV-AVI Type-1...

Try Type 2 (if you can). Especially if you go down the separate tools route. I think it's more readily accepted by more tools.

...encoding with Quality=Standard play (5073 kbps)...

Go for the 8k or 9k, as you say.

If you're happy with Nero, all well and good. If the day comes when you wanna do more, check out other tools for each step of the process.

[racer-x]

You can get quality equel to the original DV, but not better. You can never get better than source(garbage in garbage out). The movie industry spends millions to get the quality they get, so forget trying to equel their's.

There's lots of things that you can do to improve quality. It starts with a good clean source video. Capture to AVI. Edit in a good video editor. Encode with a good encoder. Author with a good DVD Authoring S/W.

Sure you can get the job done with an all in one app, but like you're finding out, the quality sucks.

[daamon]

@ racer-x

You've hit the proverbial nail on the head.

Your call deepor - How much quality do you want vs how much time & money you wanna spend?

The latter isn't as expensive as you might think. In fact, the first of the links I gave in my first post won't cost a penny, and the second can be achieved for not too much cash.

The main factor is the editing tool you use - can vary from free, thru fair up to loads. TMPGEnc (encoder) and TMPGEnc DVD Author can be bought as a bundle for $99.

[bugster]

Deepor, try a different mpeg -encoder. I can't comment specifically on the encoder in NeroVision Express but lets just say that previous mpeg encoders from Nero have always been sub-par.

Try Mainconcept, TmpGenc, procoder or Cinemacraft encoders if you want quality.

[rcguy]

I use a Sony camcorder DCR TRV 27 to record DV. I then use Studio 9 to capture, edit and burn. It's that easy. Best Buy has Pinnacle's Studio 9 on sale for $69.99 with a $20.00 competitor's upgrade rebate. Yes, I end up with an outstanding quality picture plus surround sound.

[deepor]

At the moment, my main objective is maximizing the quality of the conversion from DV to DVD-mpeg and preserving - not improving - the quality of the original video. I'm sure there are editing/authoring tools with better functionality, but the basic stuff in Nero is fine for now. I'm wondering though about encoding and whether some of these tools offer higher quality AVI and mpeg encoding.

But, first try is increased bit rates. Thanks again for the suggestions.

[triphop]

Actually the most important part of the process is the source material and this is where deep pockets trump you. Single image sensor DV cameras with poor optics are not going to produce "good" DVDs no matter what you do. Entropy rules ya know. Most of the advice posted before is completely applicable - DV is one of the simpler paths to DVD. It can be summed up as:

Shoot - Capture - Edit - Convert to MPEG2 - Author DVD- Burn

Triphop

[donpedro]

I haven't seen any comments in this regard, but you know what can make BIG difference in quality of final product ? Get rid of your shaky hands. Get tripod and shoot with it. Just try and see. Other than quality of optics, sensors and much more expensive mpeg2 encoders that studio is using to make DVD (e.g., Lord of the Rings).... TRIPOD is the magic word.

EDIT: I was just reading another post about this... and.... light condition is another thing that affects encoding.

[triphop]

TRIPOD is the magic word.

YES - there is nothing worse than poorly shot video. There are a few simple rules:

0. Use a tripod or at least a shoulder brace
1. No wild panning
2. No zooming in and out while recording.
3. Compose your shots (use rule of thirds)
4. Shoot for editing - shoot more video than you would think you need
4a. Shoot at least 10 seconds per record - just in case
5. Be aware of lighting - watch for silhouetting, etc, etc.
6. TURN OFF AUTOEXPOSURE if you can - nothing worse than seeing the
video bloom and dim when someone with a light shirt walks in front.

Lots more.

[MrMungus]

[quote="deepor"]At the moment, my main objective is maximizing the quality of the conversion from DV to DVD-mpeg and preserving - not improving - the quality of the original video. quote]

You can't. You're going from 25Mbps to, at most, 9Mbps. You have to lose quality somewhere in there. DVDs at a lower bitrate than the original will never look "as good as" the original tape. They can only look "good enough" or look as if there is no *perceptible* loss in quality (akin to WAV vs. MP3).

[deepor]

You can't. You're going from 25Mbps to, at most, 9Mbps. You have to lose quality somewhere in there.

Wow - I didn't realize the difference between DV and DVD throughput would be so great. It makes more sense there will be a quality difference. I'm still scratching my head on Lord of the Rings on DVD, though.

Also, see this link:
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=725433#725433

Good stuff! Definitely DV-2-DVD Class 201 - I'm still stuck in Class 101.

I did have some success increasing the bitrate. When I raised it to High Quality (9,716 kbps) my DVD player had some difficulties - video showed skipping and audio sync problems (although I didn't check a copy of the hard drive, I suppose it could be the mpeg). But, when I encoded at 7,000 kbps the player had no difficulty playing and I am much happier - but not yet satisfied! - with the results. But I feel like there is hope.

daamon, I see in your link the concept of variable bit rate encoding and reducing the audio bitrate. Nerovision Express does support AC-3 Dolby Digital 2.0, but it doesn't appear to support variable bitrate encoding - you just specify a fixed rate and that's it. Could be a reason to explore some other encoding tools, and spend some time in the other forums.

THANKS

[proxyx99]

For home based encoding 7k seems to be the range where artifacts start disappearing. Try 7.5 or 8 k (9.7 approaches the limit and may not be safe with all dvd players). Better encoder will give you better results (so will tweaking encoding settings/parameters). This is how Big Guys achieve quality, costly equipment plus tonns of experience and fine tuning.

[MrMungus]

I did have some success increasing the bitrate. When I raised it to High Quality (9,716 kbps) my DVD player had some difficulties - video showed skipping and audio sync problems (although I didn't check a copy of the hard drive, I suppose it could be the mpeg). But, when I encoded at 7,000 kbps the player had no difficulty playing and I am much happier - but not yet satisfied! - with the results. But I feel like there is hope.

I found out recently that there's a supposed maximum bitrate for DVD players -- somewhere around 9 Mbps. If you encode at 9 and add audio, you'd be going over 9. That might be why it didn't skip at 7.

[daamon]

Good stuff!

Glad it was of use.

When I raised it to High Quality (9,716 kbps) my DVD player had some difficulties... But, when I encoded at 7,000 kbps the player had no difficulty playing...

If you can (I don't know NVE), try 8,000kbps and 9,000kbps on short clips - quicker to encode and will give you an idea of quality between the two.

I see in your link the concept of variable bit rate [VBR] encoding and reducing the audio bitrate

Check out the guide http://dvd-hq.info/Compression.html for good info on VBR. It's good if you've got a mixture of high speed scenes and slower motion scenes, or if you're tight for space. TMPGEnc does this, and set the max to what you think your DVD player can handle, avg = 6,000, min = 2,000.

I reduce the audio as my DVD player can handle the 9,600 max bitrate and my clip length (time) means that the final size is still OK for a disc.

Could be a reason to explore some other encoding tools...

You're catching on...:

Sure you can get the job done with an all in one app, but like you're finding out, the quality sucks

Welcome to the black art... Good luck. Post back how you get on.

[LlamaStick]

Lots of good advice, so I'll not add anything other than to answer your Lord of the rings DVD question.

Commerical DVDs are DUAL layer - this means they can hold over 8Gb of data. DVD-Rs you are burning hold 4.7Gb so recording 2 hours on a DVD-R has to be done at a much lower bit rate.
That's why even LOTR extended editions are on 2 discs....

(Dual layer is not 4.7Gb x 2 though - another one of those mysteries!!)

Regards,

Steve.

[vhelp]

Unfortunately, all those recordings from past to present, will resort to
the resulting quality, base upon your skills levels. I say past to present
because many people are lead to believe that their hand-held cam and home
footage will come out DVD quality.. till they try and fail. Not to sound
intrusive. But, the bottom line is this. You did not incorporate a tripod
in your footaging. It's a must. What do you think that Hollywood and
Cinema always use some form of Tripod mechanism ?
Even w/ their expensiv cameras, there is no match for using a Tripod.
.
.
Next, if the "fluid motion" that a given triod is capable of yielding.
.
.
Next, if a "motorized fluid motion" (the ultimate) up/down/left/right
of such a gizmo (I have one, and does great, but is not fast in motion)

Some more things to pinch your nerves..
* Fast panning kills your chances of good quality.
* sudden jerks, or panning (left/right) will also result in poor chances.
* Lighting conditions
* camera settings while shooting. Auto mode is the worse mode for an
...amerature to use. It will constancly fluctuate the brightness and
...other things, that will result in lesser chances.

Regarding the above, to an newbie (or ameture) these things are meaningless
and/or nonsense to them. They don't see qualit issues in their first passes
w/ this endeavors. But, give them a little time, and they will learn that
their results need improvements.

If you ever wonder how you can achieve Cinema quality (or close to it)
time will tell, when you actually start practicing those techniques above
and then some. Once you get use to the idea of Tripoding, things will get
better in the area of quality. Also, you be confortable w/ Tripods and
you may even become "aware" of certain things, that will spark your mind
w/ ideas and techniques to improve your footaging :P

But, beleave me, there is nothing else you can do for your older footage.
Whats done is done, w/ regards to how your shot your footage w/ your given
cam. The next best thing you can do is research on various websites for
camming techniques and things. There is lots of stuff out their. But,
this is for those that are really cerious about getting better quality
out of their camming endeavors.

I think that about the best you can do is utilize the maximum bitrate per
dvd disk, per hours worth, and live with the quality. Also, since DV is
pure interlace, it is best to leave it that way and encode w/ Interlace on

Next, if you plan on continuing footaging, I would highly recommend that you
start learning to incoporate a tripod in all your shots.
Also, learn how to move your cam (panning) and one more tip, breathing technique.
I know if all sounds like rocket stuff, but it isn't. If you are really
serious about quality, this is what you have to resort to. It's worth it.
But, if quality is not you main concirn, then de-regard what I've mentioned
above :P

And, good luck :P

-vhelp

[deepor]

Ahhh, Dual Layer, now that makes sense Thank you, LlamaStick.

I've read a thread or 2 on upcoming dual layer writers slated to come out probably sometime this year. And, obviously, even cheapo DVD players are equipped to play from these dual layer disks. Very cool. Well, I suppose I'll make do with my new single layer writer for the time being, certainly until there's a bit of price/functionality competition in the Dual Layer writer market. But that will be very nice.

I was able to encode at 8,000 kbps in Nero successfully with no burps from my DVD player. I noticed that, although I couldn't specify different Low-Med-High bit rates, that the 2-pass option indicated VBR. So maybe I am getting variable bit rate? Also, I downgraded to AC3 audio with no significant degradation in the sound quality, at least to my ears. Haven't had a chance yet to experiment with other tools yet.

THANKS for the coaching.

[FulciLives]

Since 8000kbps is about as high (more or less) as you can go with your MPEG-2 DVD spec encoding you don't want to use a multipass VBR mode. Just use a CBR mode at 8000kbps and convert your audio to 224kbps 2.0 AC-3 or even 256kbps 2.0 AC-3

If you want to do LPCM WAV audio then you should do a CBR of 7500kbps on the video as pushing it higher might cause problems with some DVD players ... this is because LPCM WAV audio has a very high bitrate.

With home shot cam stuff you should never be able to tell the difference between say 256kbps 2.0 AC-3 and LPCM WAV audio.

As for improving the picture ... ask vhelp about the 411 filters. There is one for VirtualDub and one for AviSynth and it sounds like an essential filter for DV footage. Also you want to look into some sort of video "noise" filter. I am rather found of Convolution3D myself but there are others out there that might be easier to use (Convolution3D requires AviSynth and that scares some people).

So between filtering the video and encoding at a high bitrate ... well ... you can't go wrong.

One last thing which many have said and I will stress this ... try CCE BASIC (aka CINEMA CRAFT ENCODER) or TMPGEnc aka TMPGEnc Plus for your MPEG-2 encoding and forget NeroVision

Maybe vhelp can post a link to the 411 filters. You can also find a link to VirtualDub and/or AviSynth filters from the VirtualDub and AviSynth websites:

http://www.virtualdub.org

http://www.avisynth.org

Also one last "trick" you might want to consider ...

Since home made or shot cam footage can be shaky etc. you will sometimes get "macroblocks" even at high bitrates. If you still find this to be true with those "extra shaky" videos then here is a solution:

When doing your MPEG-2 encoding use what is called Half D1 resolution. This is 352x480 for NTSC and 352x576 for PAL and this is a VALID resolution for the DVD format. The nice thing about Half D1 is although you loose some sharpness to the image it is not very noticeable unless you have a very large TV (like 55" or 60" plus) BUT the real trick is that it is "easier" for the MPEG-2 encoder to encode such footage. Use a CBR of 5000kbps or even 6000kbps if you want to go "overboard" and there will be NO MACROBLOCKS at all!

It's a slight trade in resolution (sharpess) for lack of MACROBLOCKS.

However DV is Full D1 resolution (720x480 NTSC and 720x576 PAL) so you don't want to use Half D1 unless you have too (i.e., still have MACROBLOCKS even with a very high 7500kbps to 8000kbps video bitrate).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[deepor]

Lots to digest - thanks so much, FulciLives. Regarding your encoder recommendations, I am interested in experimenting. You didn't mention Canopus Procoder - my thread browsing has indicated that as a high-quality encoder, no?

Hopefully, vhelp will post again regarding the 411 filters, you've piqued my interest.

[FulciLives]

Lots to digest - thanks so much, FulciLives. Regarding your encoder recommendations, I am interested in experimenting. You didn't mention Canopus Procoder - my thread browsing has indicated that as a high-quality encoder, no?

Hopefully, vhelp will post again regarding the 411 filters, you've piqued my interest.

There are those who swear by Canopus ProCoder but then again it is a $500 USD program (at least last time I checked). Both CCE BASIC and TMPGEnc Plus will give you EXCELLENT results at about $70 each. I prefer CCE BASIC but it requires you master AviSynth to really get the best out of it. TMPGEnc is easier to use and you can get away without using AviSynth and instead just use VirtualDub but although BOTH are excellent quality wise TMPGEnc Plus can be DEAD slow at the highest quality settings. CCE BASIC is MUCH faster and yet the quality is just as good (some say even a hair's breath better) than TMPGEnc Plus.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[deepor]

There are those who swear by Canopus ProCoder but then again it is a $500 USD program (at least last time I checked).

I was thinking about the $60 Express version, not the full Monty.

[FulciLives]

There are those who swear by Canopus ProCoder but then again it is a $500 USD program (at least last time I checked).

I was thinking about the $60 Express version, not the full Monty.

I didn't realize that there was a cheap alternative version of ProCoder.

You might want to ask Adam (the moderator) as I seem to recall him once praising the use of ProCoder especially for true interlaced sources (such as cam footage).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[SquirrelXss]

1 question, how do i frameserv from Video Studio 7?

[donpedro]

3. Frameserve from Studio 7 to Procoder 1.5

I have to say that I am confused what "Frameserve" means. Can somebody explain it to in this content ? Here is definition.

Frameserve
The process of creating a direct video "link" from one application to another. For example a video editor application to standalone mpeg encoder so you don't need a plugin or create a temporary video file.

[SquirrelXss]

I know how to frameserv from other apps like virtual dub, but i dont see any way to frameserv from video stuido 7.