Expectations: MiniDV -> DV

[proxyx99]

3. Frameserve from Studio 7 to Procoder 1.5

I have to say that I am confused what "Frameserve" means. Can somebody explain it to in this content ? Here is definition.

Frameserve
The process of creating a direct video "link" from one application to another. For example a video editor application to standalone mpeg encoder so you don't need a plugin or create a temporary video file.

In plain English it may be described as the process of sending video material from one application to another (frame by frame) whereby one application delivers frames that are encoded in another. Every encoder does both, grabs the frame (in whatever format) decodes and encodes it to a desired format. In frameserve scenario this proces is broken up (one does decoding and the other encodes). This is used to simplify the process and save space. Decoded material (in one) is beeing passed onto another where it is encoded on the fly. Otherwise one would have to decode and save it to a file and then encode the file to a final product. This temp file may be huge. It allows to use a different encoder then built into the application that serves frames (example Premiere fameserving to CCE).

[Brpod]

deepor, Thought I would give you my 2 penny worth, I have been playing around with video and DVD burning for about 2 years and have just got my second burner (Sony 510 internal). I have also been a bit disapointed with the results but have been getting better and better and have finally found a method that works very well.

I capture from DV to AVI with windows Movie Maker 2 (free download). This creates a large AVI file but also chops the film into clips, based on content and time. These clips can then be added to the timeline and saved to the computer (again as AVI), the timeline can then be cleared and different clips added. The end result is a large file (usually called untitled.avi - I tend to be a bit lazy) and a number of smaller file that I have saved. Once you have everything from the tape that you want close MM2 and delete the larger file, if you want to re do it you can capture again.

The next step is to us MyDVD by Sonic, this has got a LOT of bad press, especially in these forums but the new version, it came free with the Sony, is very good, a bit limited in the menu creation but the quality is almost exactly that of the camera. The AVI's can be inserted using the "get movie" button. The encoding takes a long time, but I set it last thing at night, get up in the morning and watch a bit on my standanlone before going to work.

Hope this helps

[mikesbytes]

deepor, perhaps the tripod comment wasn't explained fully in relation to mpeg2. Most of the frames in mpeg2 only remember the difference between it and the previous frame and therefor use less bits to show the frame as it effectively recycles the bits from the previous frame. What a tripod does is it keeps the background still and as a result the conversion to mpeg2 results in a smaller file, or allows more bits to be available for the real movement.

Most of us (including me) hand hold the camera and this means that the background is moving as you wobble the camera. When it is encoded to mpeg2, the encoder needs to allocate more bits to the background and therefor has less bits available for the foreground.

Some people have preserved there home video by placing the .AVI on the DVD as a data file, getting around 20minutes per disk. This guantees a perfect copy, but doesn't play in your DVD player. Possibly the most important thing is that you actually backed up your home videos and placed them in a different house to the origional. Even a poor quality copy is better than not having it at all.

[deepor]

That's practical, helpful advice, mikesbytes. You did give me a better appreciation for the tripod issue - the wobbles always bothered me even on tape playback; but now I get that wobbly on tape is possibly even worse after mpeg encoding. I just don't know how realistic setting up the tripod is when I'm scrambling to keep up with the kids! Good ideas on the backup strategies - I'll consider...

[proxyx99]

Good news for you. Pinnacle Studio 9 has adopted new feature "camera shake removal". So there is hope after all... Tripod is good but not always practical so let's not get crazy...(you won't take tripod on a boat trip, will you?)

[Bstansbury]

Deepor,,.. This has been a great series of post,... and you're getting a lot of good information.

To add a little more light on the orginal topic,... what's a good MPEG-2 encoder,... I have read hours and hours of stuff and tested some of it and I believe that the one thing that can get the most out of any .avi video is to use Automatic VBR. Another term for this is VBR Constant Quality. Some MPEG-2 encoders have several diffenent encoding modes, VBR, CBR, Auto CQ, etc. Each has a very specific task or methodolgy. There is not time enough tonight to go into a lot of detail on each of this, and there are other sources that have done a great job on each,.. so I will just try and summarize each.

VBR - Varible bit rate can vary from 300 kbs to 9000 kbs but is optimized to use most of the bits on fast action scenes.

CBR - Constant Bit Rate is just that,... bit rate does not vary and therefore wastes high bit rates on scenes that do nothing.

CQ - Auto Contant Quality is VBR which VBR but with a set Constant Quality requirement.

The problem is selecting which one to use and when. No two movies are the same, some are slow and some are fast action. CBR will always give you a fixed file size per minute of movie and therefore you know when it will fit on a DVD. You'll never be able to predict how long the other two will end up.

As for the mystery of Lord of the Rings,... that's easy,.. you start with a million dollar camera, supported by 5 million worth of rigs, lights, sound, etc.,.. and shot the scene as many times as it takes to get it perfect, edit it, cut it, re-shoot it, scrub it, then convert very high quality "Film" with a 10 million dollar Film to MPEG encoder, optimized by scene and not by one setting for the entire movie, put all the files together... then you've got a great 2 layer maximum performance DVD. It's simple.

Look at the guides on TMPGen and study up on MPEG-2 encoding options, and you'll have your brain working all night long.

[heyjjjaded]

I capture from DV to AVI with windows Movie Maker 2 (free download). This creates a large AVI file but also chops the film into clips, based on content and time. These clips can then be added to the timeline and saved to the computer (again as AVI), the timeline can then be cleared and different clips added. The end result is a large file (usually called untitled.avi - I tend to be a bit lazy)

Quick question - how do you save your video files as AVI files with Windows Movie Maker 2? I've played with this program & can only get it to save my videos as WMV files ... is there something I'm missing?

[bugster]

Quick question - how do you save your video files as AVI files with Windows Movie Maker 2? I've played with this program & can only get it to save my videos as WMV files ... is there something I'm missing?

I am working from memory here so bear with me 8)

In the drop down list where you select 'quality' of capture there is an option labelled 'other' or something similiar. Select this and a new drop down list will appear. Click on this and DV-AVI (Pal or NTSC according to project settings) should be available.

[heyjjjaded]

Thanks bugster ... I'll give it a try.

[darkomega69]

in reply to frameserving from vs7. i was under the impression that you couldn't. if you could if would be a boon. anybody know this for sure?

[Sciolist]

This is a DV question on a similar vein- I have DV raw footage that I would like to archive on DVD media. My intent is to later (e.g. sometime in the next 20 years) come back and edit the footage and make it into movies. (e.g. embarrass kids at their weddings with childhood footage)

Unfortunately, the AVI files I capture from the DV camera are over 7 gigabits for 30 minutes of footage. I’d like to spend no more than a single DVD per hour of footage.
So how do I fit it? I’m wary of the data loss from compressing, then uncompressing to edit, then compressing again.

What is the most economical way to save the raw footage NOW so I can edit it LATER into a DVD movie and have the final product still be good quality (i.e. average viewer won’t notice)?

Thanks

[donpedro]

Here is one crazy idea....

Re-record your tapes every couple of years to brand new MiniDV tapes.

1. Leave original on MiniDV tapes.
2. After let's say... 3 years, copy them on PC.
3. Buy new MiniDV tape and record it back to tape.
4. Keep old tapes just in case....

That way, there is no loss.

But I guess, it might be cheaper to burn AVI files to DVD anyway.... Just don't throw away originals....

[proxyx99]

Hey, don't exagerrate with the "loss" issue. Just encode it to MPEG2 highest bitrate and burn to DVD. I convert MPEG2 to/from PAL from time to time and that req. decompressing to DV avi and reencoding. Quality is as good as the original (very, very minimal loss, really negligible). Great unless your movie is gonna be shown at the film festivals.

[BSR]

Does the data on the tapes have any documented life expectancy?
Do certain tapes hold data longer than others?

I have pondered this backing up issue many of times. I keep all the original DV tapes, how long will they last, I have no idea.
Maybe when blueray or something similar comes out I will back up all my DV to blueray like I'm currently backing up all my VHS to DV.

[FulciLives]

Does the data on the tapes have any documented life expectancy?
Do certain tapes hold data longer than others?

I have pondered this backing up issue many of times. I keep all the original DV tapes, how long will they last, I have no idea.
Maybe when blueray or something similar comes out I will back up all my DV to blueray like I'm currently backing up all my VHS to DV.

Good point ... the next really big wave (after dual layer) will probably be either AOD or Blue Ray with AOD being I think 15GB capacity and Blue Ray being 20GB capacity.

So finally you will be able to store a single 60 minute DV tape on a sigle disc.

For now if you really want to store on a DVD your best bet is to use something like RAR format. You can "splice" up your DV AVI file into smaller 1GB chucks (using the archive function of RAR which uses no additional compression) then put four 1GB chunks on a single DVD disc. Unfortunately this will take a lot of time and will take at least 3 ... maybe even part of a 4th DVD disc ... just to store 60 minutes of DV AVI footage.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[proxyx99]

Does the data on the tapes have any documented life expectancy?
Do certain tapes hold data longer than others? .

Tapes should last 10-15 years, maybe more. I have 13 year old Hi8 tapes that still play like new. Generally more expensive the tape better quality you get, with some exceptions probably. Stick to the high grade stuff from the manuf. you prefer and you'll be fine (I use Sony and Fuji, but TDK, Panasonic, JVC or any othert reputable stuff if stored properly - cool and dry - will last very long).
See my post above with regard to temp. backup for future editing.

[holistic]

FYI
DVD can accomodate ~ 19 1/2 minutes (19 to be safe) of DV (*.avi)
This can be put to DVD in one complete stream (no cutting) if burned using UDF

Another approach
For my 'archiving' of family videos, I have adopted 2 techniques.
(1)Raw DV on hardrives and
(2)edited MPEG2 encoded @8500 with 384 audio in ~60 minute segments. Burned to DVD in UDF 1.02

The harddrives withRAW DV are used for authoring DVD's the UDF DVD's are stored in a fireproof safe.

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