TBC or Not TBC?

[SatStorm]

Hmm...

Europe ain't UK, Germany and BeNeLux, neither Scandinavia overall...
It is also Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Hungary, Greece, Turkey (west part), Russia, Ukraine, Armenia and plenty other nations, which on population are almost triple the first ones. On many of those countries (and also count middle east and France), SECAM is the system they are using even today for terrestrial TV transmissions.
Romania is the average example and do you know how is a months salary there? 100$. Who gonna buy cameras when the cheaper one cost 4 months salary?
You know, taping your life is not something appealing because you like it so much. I found it irritating for example and many southeast europeans also do. Our culture is different but you don't want to realise that. And you never will, so I stop here before it goes wild.

And no, SECAM tapes are not rare. Expecially now, which we host many middle east foreigners in our country (most tapes are Middle East SECAM)

And about the statement "20 year old tapes are rare", just do a forum search: Half people around is here because they wish to do just that. Convert their own 20 year old tapes to DVD-Rs....
I wasted much time on this post, without any reason.
My opinion, based on my experience, which noone can doubt by just read how long I'm in this scene and how I helping people the last 3 years at least, is that TBC is a must for VHS captures. It more important for NTSC users and a great help for PAL/SECAM users.
This is my opinion, and you have all the freedom of the world to have another.

@yg1968: Some of those cameras have that TBC, so yes, some cameras are capable to use TBC, but not all.

[DVWannaB]

Satstorm, your definition of TBC happens to be almost identical with mine. Let's skip details. My postings are not "American". Your country is most likely PAL and SECAM tapes are now rare (correct me if I'm wrong).
Capturing 20 year old tapes is rare as well.
Chroma/luma levels adj. are found on many more elaborate TBC's.
This is not "american" thing. Tint (hue) adjustm. is NTSC related.
Many of my tapes were shot in Europe. Seems you underestimate European users as lots of them have DV and other Video cams. Europe has a very strong home-video market and in that respect I totally disagree with you. Btw. the time has come for you to start recording your life on tape as well. My kids love it and those who never did envy it.

Lordsmurf, you don't need to prove anything for me, I know the outcome.
As to the "chroma leakage", TBC provide better (more even) separation of chroma carrier signal. In some cases this will reduce noise level (only from interference with color carrier). Jitter, flutter, roll (simply V-sync) is another situation. End of story. Not as you previously wrote "all sorts of errors" suggesting that TBC can do more then it can really do.

Last post:

After tweaking the various settings within the JVC to get the best possible picture,

Nice, but I wonder how much of it was JVC filtering and how much TBC. As I said, try it on a good copy as some suggest (not noisy, flickering, jumpy, video tears, warped picture - we know that) expecting a miracle to happen

Agreed, proxy, there are no miracles here. I think sometimes people have unrealistic expectations what these devices can and will deliver. While my results are very very good, it is not look like the original. Thats almost impossible, but the visual improvement is astounding. As for the JVC tweaking, it has 3 picture settings (sharp, normal, soft), 2 TBC settings (normal and high or something like that) and Dynamic Noise Reduction on/off button. For various tapes, I play with these settings while monitoring it on my 32" Sony TV, until I get the best quality I can find. Some tapes look better with DNR on and some dont. Some look better with TBC at normal than high and vice-versa. The TBC-1000 is the only constant, as it cant be tweaked and it depends on the video feed for interpretation and output. Also, it seems to me that in my tweaks, the stand-alone TBC-1000 works more on the horizontal picture and the JVC VCR on the vertical picture stabilization. Or maybe its the other way around

[proxyx99]

@Satstorm
Some of the countries you mentioned abandoned SECAM for PAL although I cannot provide any further details at this moment.

[MrMungus]

I think you should simply get started and then decide if you need any time-base correction.

[yg1968]

Not to my knowledge. Pass-through TBC requires dedicated memory (at least for several lines) and this is not part of pass-through A/D functionality.
To add: but it does have a V-sync stabilizer from what I've heard.

proxyx99,

V-Sync means vertical sync stabilizer? What does that do? Does that help old tapes? Is this why the passthrough feature of Sony DV camcorders defeat macrovision?

[Theophilus]

I had a similar question when I started capturing my 20+ year old home movies. You can find the discussion here.

In the thread linked above, I said, "The tbc/dnr seemed to have no effect at all on the video." In context, this refers specifically to the tracking problems, so don't misquote me there. It also only applies to the worst tracking spots on my most degraded video (see the pics). Overall, it tracks better. After more experience with the JVC HR-S9600U, I can say that I'm not as disappointed as I was at first. The visual and audio improvements that this machine provides are substantial, and I would say that converting your video to digital through a DV camcorder is much like using the DAC-100 in that you will see the best results when the machine that is directly reading the source is of good quality (i.e. the VCR).

The JVC still causes my DAC-100 to drop frames where my cheap GE VCR did not. Usually, if I change the VCR settings and capture again, however, it will not drop the same frames twice. It drops frames infrequently enough to not be too annoying. The visual improvements I see with activated TBC/DNR are straightening of the left edge of the picture, considerable noise reduction, and more vibrant color. The TBC and DNR functions can only be used in conjunction.

Considering the better overall tracking results and considerable picture improvement, I am happy that I spent the $300 for the JVC.

[SatStorm]

@proxyx99
So, because most of them abandoned SECAM the last 5 - 8 years, they through away their tapes, media and their archives right?

All those TV stations gonna through just like that their SECAM archives, just because they stop using SECAM for transmission?

Are you kidding me?

And about TBC:
You have your opinion, I have mine, and this is acceptable.
You believe that TBC don't help, I state that TBC helps. The one who interest to know, gonna try himself and see. That's for sure. Because I say something, or you say something, doesn't mean that someone third have to simply follow, expecially without testing...
Or your problem focus on the ones who gonna "waste" money buying equipment they won't use because they won't like the results? I don't think so...
A VCR with a built in TBC soon or later gonna show the benefits of this technology. Expecially on older VHS tapes. This is my opinion, at least. You have an other opinion, that's OK. That's acceptable.

What it is not acceptable, is to call someone a liar. Even in a polite way, as you did with me...
Where and on what you based that?
It seems that you are a great fan of your (US) President and that explains a lot....
I have nothing more to say....

[lordsmurf]

It seems that you are a great fan of your (US) President and that explains a lot.....

Hey now! A lot of us still support G.W. ... that doesn't mean we're dumb or something.

I bet you're trying to get this locked.

[Zeek]

Wow. VERY informative posts here. For some reason, my email notification stopped working. If I'd know about all this I would have checked back much sooner. I even learned a bit of history/geography here also.

@ tito13kfm: On the S-VHS, thought you would say that. So far, I've been using composite but I'm hearing from a number of ppl that S-VHS output is vastly superior.

@ vcdforme: I'd really like to get my money's worth out of this camera in terms of it's worth in the capture dept., but a DVD recorder will definitely be on the "to do" list soon. I will look into it for sure and thanks for the Panasonic suggestion.

@ lordsmurf: Yep, it is me. NYC is about 2.5 hours from here, but I'm down there occasionally. I tried B&H ,but unfortunately didnt' have a lot of luck with the clerks. I got the old "hold please"/transfer bit for about 20 minutes from 4 or 5 different ppl and eventually said the hell with it. Maybe it's the kind of place where you've got to be there in person?

Btw, I did look into ALL of your suggestions for VCR's. Ebay and the usual sources are so far failing me totally. If I can find a unit for a reasonable price that has built-in TBC, I'm all over it. If not, I'm getting to the point where I need to move and may have to take my chances. I do not think a dedicated TBC unit would be for me YET. Might be if I decide to really get serious and discover that my tapes are shitty enough, though. I was looking at a couple of JVC's: HR-S5902U and HR-S5912U. I know they weren't at the top of your list, but at least they are S-VHS. If I end up having to go this route (no TBC), I would definitely value your opinion on which unit(s) to look at. And that goes for everyone, as well. Btw, if you know of anyone, yourself included, that is looking to unload an older JVC anytime, do drop me a line.

@ proxy99: Very interesting. Looks like I may end up going without TBC because I won't have a choice unless I get a dedicated unit or pay out the ass. Your's seems to be a very different opinion - good to know.

@ yg1968:

Interesting thread.

Yeah, you think?

@ MrMungus:

I think you should simply get started and then decide if you need any time-base correction.

Ja. Pretty much my plan exactly at this point. Finding a decently built VCR with built in TBC seems to pretty much be out of the question and, as for regular standalone TBC, the full monty is a bit pricey. Guess we'll see then.

@ SatStorm: Off topic but, just so you know, Bush does NOT represent most Americans.

Everyone: Is there not a chance in hell of finding an old JVC unit (or similar) that has built-in TBC, true or not? I'm at the end of my rope.

[BrainStorm69]

There are at least 3 used 7000 series JVC units on sale at ebay right now.

try a search for "JVC HR-S7*"

or if you would rather wait for a used 9000 series unit, just try "JVC HR-S9*"

If you try that every day for awhile, one shows up pretty soon.

Someone just got a JVC HR-S7500U for about $215 yesterday. A HR-S9400U also sold yesterday for $350.

[Zeek]

Thanks a bunch. Never thought to use the asterisk. I will go check it out right now. Cheers...

[SatStorm]

I didn't know myself how to use the asterix when I searched things on ebay, so this post turned suprisly informative for me.

@Lordsnumf: Just to clearify: I didn't critisize in any way the US president, or I called him whatever. I'm not the one to judge him or have an opinion about his actions or wisdom. What I can do, is to like or not his style. Well, I'm not his fan. That's it. And it seems that my friend proxyx99 follows his style, so unfortunatelly, he belongs to a category of men, I don't like to mess with.

@Zeek: First of all I like to apologize for messing with this post, only rarelly I do it really. Most of the time, I'm a good and quiet poster.
TBC ain't neccessary but it really helps when you have it. Expecally for NTSC captures from VHS. Most users agree with me and some don't. If you can test, do it, after all is about you, not about who is right or not.
If you can't test it, then if you can find a cheap VCR with TBC in a price about the same a typical VCR, prefer the first one.
Sorry again for the off topic posts of mine

[proxyx99]

Satstorm, you pay too much attention to the side issues (you seem to really be splitting hairs). No need for it, it is just a friendly discussion although points of view may in fact vary vastly and that may influence the temperature of discussion. My posts were about a notion that TBC's are seen as Viagra for video. Just like for an old man, it may be the case (may help), but if you are young and strong you don't need it (like with a good VHS tape).
I avoid proliferating a specific tool or hardware as some may be disappointed after such purchase. Good VCR - yes. If it has TBC: great. But to say "buy a TBC" cause you gonna be blown away, no. I did that and I was not blown away, although it helped me with some tapes.
It was gathering dust later on and went back on Ebay auction block.
Anyone who has the ambition of becoming a pro video editor will buy it anyway, that is a given, but for amateurs who occasionally do digitize analog video it is an overkill. That is why I'm cautious while advising on a specific issue like this one.

[SatStorm]

Yeah yeah, I agree with you. Overall people don't need those things, but the people here on this forum are not the average user (average Joe as you call). There are already advance users, with higher needs. I believe that the simpliest "newbie" here is already an advance user in overall PC terms. People don't come accidently here...

What hoted the tempature wasn't your opinion, but that you called me a "liar" in a polite way. And you still don't even ask "sorry" for this. No, now that I mention it, I don't want your sorry, you had at least 3 chances to do it already, and you didn't... It just shows the person you are...
Calling me a liar, is not a side issue for me or any mediterenians (and it is not splitting hairs...). It seems that you STILL don't understand the culture differences here... Words are maybe just words for you, but when you socialize with mediterneans, you will understand the huge insult you made (maybe accidently, I don't doubt that, afterall I insulted other people in the past accidently, but at least I asked "sorry" from them when I realise that. You don't).

Let's no waste more bandwith on this topic, shall we? After all, you never gonna understand....

[Zeek]

@ Satstorm: No worries. I got a lot out of this post.

@ Everyone else: Popcorn, anyone?


Thanks to all for your help on this. Actually, I am the "advanced" computer user, but with video I need a lot of help. This forum is huge help.

[triphop]

My Opinion:

If you want to capture from standard NTSC VHS sources, it is very advisable to get a TBC either internal in a good VCR or externally like the TBC1000. I do not have a TBC1000 but I trust LordSmurf on this. I have a JVC with a built in TBC and now I just do not have to worry about dropped frames - its just not a problem for me, every frame is good.

If you think that your time is worth less than the cost of the TBC then this is an informed decision. Additionally due to quality deterioration of most VHS tapes I have come across, tape stretching and other sync issues are **WIDESPREAD**.

****
Just bear in mind that chroma/luma problems can be addressed (to some extent) post-capture, but frame drops cannot be handled.
****

Just an opinion from someone who charges for transfers.

[ggeinec]

Fascinating thread. Which leads me the following questions:

I'm trying to find a basic DVR primarily for copying old (beginning 18 years ago) family VHS tapes to DVD. My VCR is a Panasonic (not S-VHS) from about 1995, has no TBC. I've tried copying from this VCR to a Magnavox 630R and to a Pioneer 310-S and both yielded copies with colors faded and washed out, or bleached as I have seen others describe it, and the whites are too bright and intense, especially in scenes with lots of brightness or high contrast. The colors from the VCR are noticeably more rich and saturated. The Pioneer allows some color adjustment for recording but I was not able to see any noticeable difference by adjusting any of those settings.

I posted this problem on another site and I was told the problem has nothing to do with the DVRs, that I need to turn off TBC on the VCR.

First, does this sound correct?

Second, I do not have TBC on my VCR so I cannot turn it off, so if this is what I am supposed to do, how do I get around it?

Third, would it make any sense to buy a VCR with TBC and turn it off?

Fourth, is the poster correct who implied that the problem lies with my VCR and all DVRs are going to give me these same washed out bleached copies or should I continue to try other DVRs till I find a match that works for me?

Thanks for bearing with me . . .

ggeinec