NTSC/PAL VHS question

[zilog_jones]

By the way.. anyone know how my US vcr is stereo with "4" heads
while I have to get "6" heads to gain stereo for a Pal player? I wonder if this "heads" business is pure marketing.

That's not exactly true - when I was looking around at PAL VCRs last year, it seemed that "2-head" ones were normal linear sound and SP/LP, "4-head" were SP/LP with Hi-Fi (helical scan) sound, and "6-head" were SP/LP/EP with Hi-Fi sound. God knows how many heds they were actually counting - some "heads" are actually two heads, which just makes matters all the more confusing.

[zilog_jones]

Update 3:

Managed to capture the whole lot without any dropped frames, but sound quality is still an issue...

Are you using a Hi-Fi Stereo VCR? Sound is going to be god-awful anyway if you're not, or if you have Hi-Fi sound turned off for some reason.

Is it a pre-recorded tape you're using? It *should* have Hi-Fi sound (either mono or stereo) if it is - I've got tapes from 1986 with it! Then again if the tape is old, don't expect the hi-fi sound to actually work all the time, if at all. Technically, sound from an NTSC tape should be better since it is playing like 1/3 faster than a PAL one (assuming it is that much faster, as a T-120 NTSC tape seems to be about the same length as a E-180 PAL tape).

And as for your caputring troubles, wouldn't life be so much easier if people outside Europe actually used RGB connections? Then we would actually be able to get capture cards, graphics cards, and camera with RGB inputs/outputs, and none of that S-video crap that doesn't even work with about 80% of PAL TVs.

Then again, saying that, your usual VHS VCR is still only going to output a composite signal, so we'd still be screwed in cases like this...

[rhegedus]

Are you using a Hi-Fi Stereo VCR? Sound is going to be god-awful anyway if you're not, or if you have Hi-Fi sound turned off for some reason.

The sound is still awful when played from Hi-Fi Stereo VCR straight to TV.

Is it a pre-recorded tape you're using? It *should* have Hi-Fi sound (either mono or stereo) if it is - I've got tapes from 1986 with it! Then again if the tape is old, don't expect the hi-fi sound to actually work all the time, if at all.

It's from 1977 - I'd be happy even if it were mono.

And as for your caputring troubles, wouldn't life be so much easier if people outside Europe actually used RGB connections? Then we would actually be able to get capture cards, graphics cards, and camera with RGB inputs/outputs, and none of that S-video crap that doesn't even work with about 80% of PAL TVs.

Life would be easier if there was just one worldwide format, not PAL, NTSC or whatever else.

[zilog_jones]

<...>

It's from 1977 - I'd be happy even if it were mono.

What, the tape itself was actually made then?!? Well there's your problem! There's not going to be any hi-fi sound if it's that old, and the tape in general will be pretty badly degraded by now - magnetic tapes don't exactly stand the tests of time...

If the tape is newer than that (and it's just that the actual program/movie was made in 1977 was what you meant), it's still not very likely it'll have hi-fi audio if it was made before the late 80's, and still there's the fact that magnetic tape starts to degrade (even if not used) after 5 years, never mind 20! My VCR has real trouble trying to play the hi-fi audio on my oldest tapes from the late 80's - it keeps intermittently switching back and forth between hi-fi and normal linear sound.

Uhh, you do know the great difference between normal sound and hi-fi on VHS tapes? I don't know how much you know about the format, or magnetic tape in general, but hi-fi VHS audio (which isn't necessarily stereo) is recorded the helical scan way (like how video is recorded on any modern tapes), and this produces something around FM radio quality sound (some people say it's "near-CD quality", but that's being a bit too generous).

However the normal sound (which 2-head VCRs can only play/record) is recorded as a linear track, read with a stationary head, just like any analogue audio tape, except that a VHS tape travels *pretty* slow (even in standard speed!) compared to any audio tape, so it is pretty lame sound. This audio is always mono, and is always recorded on tapes - hi-fi VCRs always record this along with the hi-fi sound, simply for compatibility with all VCRs.

A lot of people think with VHS tapes there's just the difference of mono and stereo sound, but it's really the difference of crap mono and nice hi-fi stereo or mono.

And as for your caputring troubles, wouldn't life be so much easier if people outside Europe actually used RGB connections? Then we would actually be able to get capture cards, graphics cards, and camera with RGB inputs/outputs, and none of that S-video crap that doesn't even work with about 80% of PAL TVs.

Life would be easier if there was just one worldwide format, not PAL, NTSC or whatever else.

Yeah, that too, I suppose. But who's ever gonna decide which is *better*? And as long as there's still competitive markets, countries who don't like other countries, and of course people who can't make decisions, we're not going to see an international standard for some time yet! Things seem to be even worse with digital/HDTV - even the US and Japan (who both use NTSC) are using conflicting formats!

Oh, and I used to have a BBC Model B!

[rhegedus]

<...>

It's from 1977 - I'd be happy even if it were mono.

What, the tape itself was actually made then?!? Well there's your problem! There's not going to be any hi-fi sound if it's that old, and the tape in general will be pretty badly degraded by now - magnetic tapes don't exactly stand the tests of time...

You don't say!

Yeah, that too, I suppose. But who's ever gonna decide which is *better*?

PAL, of course :P

[marshalljames]

PAL, of course

yea sure when most movies(decent ones anyways)come out of the U.S and the U.S uses NTSC your seriously gonna tell me PAL is better??
You can think that if you want,but I'll tell you something for nothing,I don't have nowhere's near the problems you have with your PAL.
And besides who uses a standalone DVD player anyways(PPL stuck in the Past??).Computers could care less about PAL/NTSC.Get an AIW and send your puter player to your T.V.Nothing could be finer to be in her ,,,,,, in the morning!!!!

[rhegedus]

So the fact that NTSC has a lower resolution and that the bitrate has to be spread over 29.97fps instead of 25fps has completely passed you by....

Do you really think that the big studios film to exactly NTSC specs, no more no less?

Oh, and where did I say I have problems with PAL?

One more for the fire: PAL vs NTSC

[marshalljames]

So the fact that NTSC has a lower resolution and that the bitrate has to be spread over 29.97fps instead of 25fps has completely passed you by....

On My 20' monitor and TV I have never noticed a difference

Do you really think that the big studios film to exactly NTSC specs, no more no less?

That wasn't my point..my point was that most DVD's are ntsc as they are made for the american market.

Oh, and where did I say I have problems with PAL?

No,you have a problem with NTSC as like I said most movies are NTSC again because of the American Market

[SatStorm]

Yo, Cowboy....

NTSC was first, so it has flows PAL don't have. That is a fact.

NTSC's 29.97 fps from Film, is a result of a "pull down" proccess.
PAL's 25 fps from Film, is a result of speed up the source. (Technically speaking, a kind of pulldown do exist for PAL also, but it is rare. Most convertions from film, based on speed up the source, so to much to 25 fps)

What is better? PAL. Why? You don't add any fake info at the results (or you add less fake info, in case of a 2:2 pulldown proccess) and the framesize is better NTSC's. Count also the colour issues you have with NTSC and it is a double win for PAL

The analogue film, don't follow the logic of NTSC and PAL on terms of specifics. Analogue film is a far superior format.

USA/CANADA/JAPAN is a big market, but the rest of the world is simply the rest of the world. So, when a movie is transfered on DVD Video, it is done seperatelly and for PAL and for NTSC.

I think you believe that the Hollywood studios convert first to NTSC and then convert that NTSC to PAL. Well no. Seperate units converts direct film to NTSC and film to PAL.

Low budget companies may convert NTSC to PAL, same way other low budget companies convert PAL to NTSC. That explains for example, why all the chinese Karate Movies look so bad in USA, so the india's Bollywood films. But the big ones, don't transfer NTSC to PAL material. They transfer film to PAL and film to NTSC direct.

[rhegedus]

On My 20' monitor and TV I have never noticed a difference

You need to see the same clip from different original sources side-by-side.

That wasn't my point..my point was that most DVD's are ntsc as they are made for the american market.

You should get out a bit more often. It is a very rare occurence that there isn't a PAL DVD version of a NTSC DVD film.

No,you have a problem with NTSC as like I said most movies are NTSC again because of the American Market

Read the thread again. I had no problems capturing from a NTSC source, even in a PAL 60 hybrid format. I had problems with the sound quality - not surprising considering that the VHS tape was 25 years old!

[rhegedus]

Big thanks to Satstorm and everyone else who offered advice on this thread - couldn't have done it without you all.

Thanks.