NTSC/PAL VHS question

[rhegedus]

Hey all!

I've found a rare NTSC VHS tape on e-bay that wasn't released on PAL VHS. Does anyone know if a PAL VCR player will play a NTSC tape?

Rob

[Sartori]

It could , but only if it says so on the box . If it does play it , then the vcr will pump out an ntsc signal to your tv , which is the second point some tvs can`t handle the signal . (before anyone writes back nit picking read what I`ve written again)

[offline]

Many can. Some that claim NTSC playback will convert the signal to PAL for you, others output NTSC only and need a NTSC or multisync capable TV, a few can do both.

[geek rock]

i brought up this topic a few months ago, and the general consensus was, unless you can find a VCR that specifically converts the signal to PAL, or is able to play it back as raw NTSC, you need to buy/borrow a US VCR to do it with, or shell out a LOT for a real hardware standards converter.

what the VCRs that "play back" NTSC tapes do is simply convert the NTSC colour scheme to the PAL colour scheme, so they are viewable on a PAL TV screen. and, as a result, if you try and capture the tape in NTSC, you end up with a black and white picture.. and if you capture in PAL, you end up with a useless rolling picture.

anyway here's the full thread:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=505006&highlight=#505006

-Mark

[johns0]

2 hour mode in ntsc speed is 3 hours in pal so the vcr has to be designed for pal to ntsc speed plus signal conversion and those vcr cost a fair bit more,only in slp or ep mode are the speeds similar at 6 hours but still a bit off.

[Sartori]

The reason I replied is that I`ll be doing exactly what u going to be doing , but I`ll be capping to NTSC (I live in the UK) and then converting it to PAL whilst converting the avi to mpeg . Which is the unsaid conclusion of the last post . (my video is b&w anyway)

[Dragonsf]

Most EU VCR will playback NTSC as PAL60.This is different to Standard NTSC (different carrier freq.).If you want to capture it with a (BT chip based) TV card , you can do this thru DScaler and AviIO.

[FulciLives]

In my opinion you will get BEST results if you play back the NTSC tape and output REAL PURE NTSC and capture it as such then if need be you can convert it to PAL while doing your MPEG-2 DVD encoding step (or VCD or SVCD etc.)

The second best method would be a VCR that can convert the NTSC to a REAL PURE PAL signal and then you capture it as PAL.

You want to stay away from the PAL60 method.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Dragonsf]

Why do you think so?NTSC VCRs aren't avaiilable at reasonable prices in EU (and just for 1 conversion) and multi norm VCR are even more expensive.
You can buy a Norm converter (expensive) or you can hire a company, which will do the conversion.
But IMHo the PAL60 (which not worse than real NTSC) is the cheapest way to go.

[SatStorm]

Most VCRs in Europe, "converts" NTSC to PAL60.

I know only one method to capture this and you need a bt8xx(x) card.

You install the latest btwincap tweak drivers and you use virtualvcr for capture.
You set the capture at 704 x 480 and the framerate at 29.97. If you have framedrops, you rise the framerate to 30fps.

Then, you encode this as NTSC not PAL!
If it is 30fps (rare, but happens) you need to do a slighty adjustment (use avifrate to set 30 to 29.97 and you use a wave editor to speed up slighty the audio, to match video lenght).

If you wish true PAL, you have to convert this NTSC (from PAL60) to true PAL. That needs a framerate convertion, which one day I have to write a guide about it.

I don't know any other working PAL60 capture alternative.

[Dragonsf]

SatStorm you're right regarding PAL60 (DSCaler and AVI-IO are working too with BT chips).The other way, which will work is a HW norm converter.You can use this to convert PAL60 into any format you like.

[rhegedus]

The VCR in question is a Sony SLV SE 720, bought from a bargain bin in John Lewis with no instructions.

I've done a few searches of the web and it is claimed to play back NTSC tapes. But since I don't have a manual, I have nothing to corroborate it - the sony www has nothing on the subject.

I'll be capturing with a Canopus ADVC-100 - any advice on settings? (only captured PAL before).

Or, could I capture straight to my Pioneer DVDR/HD combo? It's multiregion, so could I record it in NTSC?

[geek rock]

I'll be capturing with a Canopus ADVC-100 - any advice on settings? (only captured PAL before).

Or, could I capture straight to my Pioneer DVDR/HD combo?

well, the simple solution - give both options a try.

if you read the post i linked to, i also used a canopus advc-100.

when i captured the tape with canopus in NTSC mode - a perfect, but black and white, picture.

when i captured in PAL mode - rolling picture, useless for playback.

i'd imagine you will get the same results as i did.. same with the DVD recorder. like i said, most VCRs that play back NTSC tapes don't perform a true standards conversion, they just change the colour scheme to enable the picture to be viewed back in colour on a PAL TV.

-Mark

[rhegedus]

when i captured the tape with canopus in NTSC mode - a perfect, but black and white, picture.

when i captured in PAL mode - rolling picture, useless for playback.

[offline]

find a VCR that specifically converts the signal to PAL, or is able to play it back as raw NTSC, you need to buy/borrow a US VCR to do it with, or shell out a LOT for a real hardware standards converter.

No, I bought a world model Panasonic to copy videos with my JVC NTSC and Sony PAL VCR. Price was half that of a quality transcoder (that is what a Pal/NTSC converter is called btw) and it works well.

By the way.. anyone know how my US vcr is stereo with "4" heads
while I have to get "6" heads to gain stereo for a Pal player? I wonder if this "heads" business is pure marketing.

[Dragonsf]

The 2 separate heads are so called "HiFi heads".
Where did you learn this "transcoder" meaning?transcoder can mean a lot of thing, but never found this in the business of norm/standard converters.if you have a look here:
http://www.normwandler.de/catalog/index.php?cPath=1
they call it standard converter.

[rhegedus]

if you read the post i linked to, i also used a canopus advc-100.

Yeah, read that.

What I'm curious about (don't have the tape yet) is:

if the TV picture is good (i.e. colour, no rolling) but the VCR output to the Canopus didn't succeed, then does that mean that some conversion also takes place by the TV itself? I presume so.....

would passing the signal through another VCR before capture (maybe even changing output to/from RF/SCART/composite) make any difference?

[Dragonsf]

If the output of your VCR is PAL60 (all my Sonys did that), you can't record this signal, because it's neither PAL nor NTSC.The TV set just sees a PAL Signal (same color carrier) with a different Framerate and framesize, which can be adapted smoothly.

[rhegedus]

Looks like I have to pull my old Philips VCR out of retirement....

[FulciLives]

find a VCR that specifically converts the signal to PAL, or is able to play it back as raw NTSC, you need to buy/borrow a US VCR to do it with, or shell out a LOT for a real hardware standards converter.

No, I bought a world model Panasonic to copy videos with my JVC NTSC and Sony PAL VCR. Price was half that of a quality transcoder (that is what a Pal/NTSC converter is called btw) and it works well.

By the way.. anyone know how my US vcr is stereo with "4" heads
while I have to get "6" heads to gain stereo for a Pal player? I wonder if this "heads" business is pure marketing.

I have a TOSHIBA multi-system VHS VCR that can play back NTSC, PAL and even SECAM but does no conversion.

It has 8 heads!

Sadly it just broke and TOSHIBA no longer makes anything like this. The USA side is even worse. TOSHIBA once made the absolute best VHS VCR ever ... now in the USA they only make combo VHS/DVD units. The old USA VHS VCR units were 6 heads (well some models while some where only 4 heads).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[geek rock]

if the TV picture is good (i.e. colour, no rolling) but the VCR output to the Canopus didn't succeed, then does that mean that some conversion also takes place by the TV itself? I presume so.....

would passing the signal through another VCR before capture (maybe even changing output to/from RF/SCART/composite) make any difference?

the VCR is outputting in PAL60. the canopus can only accept a real standard PAL (PAL50).

the TV isn't doing any form of conversion at all.. tv sets can accept a variety of framerates (in this case, 60hz instead of 50hz). what they cannot do is accept the different colour frequency of NTSC. all the VCR does to "convert to PAL" is change the colour frequency to that of PAL. nothing else is changed at all, which is why you get this huge problem when trying to capture the output.

there are two options:

a) use an NTSC VCR,

2) use a dedicated standards converter that will be able to change the output to PAL50.

-Mark

(ps, i have also tried recording the NTSC tape to a PAL one. no luck.. rolling picture yet again!)

[FulciLives]

there are two options:

a) use an NTSC VCR,

2) use a dedicated standards converter that will be able to change the output to PAL50.

-Mark

(ps, i have also tried recording the NTSC tape to a PAL one. no luck.. rolling picture yet again!)

I should point out that you can use an NTSC VHS VCR with an external NTSC to PAL digital video converter OR you CAN get a VHS VCR that will play back NTSC and convert it to PAL. Either way I'm talking true PAL not PAL60

Note the "multi-system" VHS VCR which can play any format but only ouputs as that format ... in short it does not convert.

So really you have:

1.) NTSC only VHS VCR
2.) PAL only VHS VCR
3.) PAL VHS VCR that can play back NTSC as PAL60
4.) MULTI-SYSTEM VHS VCR that can play all format but not convert
5.) MULTI-SYSTEM VHS VCR that can play all formats and do conversion to real true formats (aka not that PAL60 crap)
6.) External Digital Video converters that can convert any format you input into any format you want to output. Basically a box with video inputs and video outputs.

I suppose it can get confusing so I thought I'd lay it all out.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[geek rock]

lol, thanks for that, john.

still, the main point is.. don't expect 99% of home vcrs to let you do this function

[rhegedus]

I'd better dig out my Pinnacle Miro DC 30+ capture card - I read on the German support web-site that the new XP driver allow PAL 60 capture.

[SatStorm]

I'm a practical person.
IMHO, the best solution: Go buy the cheapest bt8xx(x) card out there. There are cards with less than 30 euros those days. Use the universal btwincap drivers with any of them and do your job.
This way you also have a second capture card for cases like this.

IMHO, this way is faster, easier, cheaper and 100% working out of the box, than search to buy new VCRs, or to ask drivers to make your card work with PAL60 using PC voodoo magic....

Plus, you have a card which works fluently with the no1 program for analogue capture: Virtualdub.

[rhegedus]

Quick updeate.

Got the tape and it plays fine when watching TV, but there is a little sound distortion (NTSC/PAL problem or just old tape?).

As predicted, ADVC-100 capture was a waste of time.

Pinnacle Miro DC30 can capture a lovely colour PAL 60 picture using it's own capture prog, but I haven't worked out how to connect it to my Audigy 2 card. I might just end up using a headphones-line in cable.

I also havn't got VirtualDub to see the Pinnacle card yet so capturing audio/video with VD is out of the question right now.

My last alternative is to use a Hauppauge WinTV FM card to capture - I presume it is a bt8xx card since the web site lists it as having an 878 chip. Could I capture PAL 60 with Virtual Dub or should I try DeScaler?

[Dragonsf]

Use DSCaler to set up the capture mode to PAL60 and AVI-IO for capturing (I haven't tried VDub in this mode, maybe it'll work).But AVI-Io works.

[SatStorm]

Yes you can capture PAL 60 with virtualdub and your Hauppauge card. But not direct!

First, you have to open another application and set up the input signal from there. For example, you open virtualvcr, you choose pal60, you close virtualvcr, you open Virtualdub. That way, you have PAL60 on Virtualdub.
WDM drivers works through wrappers to virtualdub, so you don't have access on the input settings.

But if you want my opinion, for PAL60 is better to use virtualvcr for capture.
And remember:
Input: PAL60. Capture: 704 x 480 @ 29.97!!! Then, you encode this avi to NTSC 29.97
Also you can inverse telecine it to 23.97 (if the source is a movie) and better: You can convert it from 23.97 to 25fps, change the framesize to 352 x 576 and get a PAL result.

[rhegedus]

Update 2:

Went back to the Pinnacle card and tried to capture with various bits of software.

I'm having the best results with IuVCR but I'm getting the odd dropped frame which I'll remedy by re-capturing those parts and re-editing the video.

My main problem is the qulaity of the sound (old tape) which has some hiss but also parts where the volume goes up for milliseconds at a time - almost like the opposite of a dropout.

Any suggestions on how to clean the audio?

[rhegedus]

Update 3:

Managed to capture the whole lot without any dropped frames, but sound quality is still an issue...