VideoHelp Forum

Our website is made possible by displaying online advertisements to our visitors. Consider supporting us by disable your adblocker or Try ConvertXtoDVD and convert all your movies to DVD. Free trial ! :)
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4
1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 107
Thread
  1. Yes, I Know Roundabout's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    ...in and around the lake
    Search Comp PM
    From CNET comes the news that you might not even be able to copy your own CD's for use in the car, etc. if the RIAA has their way. (Yes, this is the same SunnComm of the "shift" key hack )

    Article follows:


    CD copy protection company SunnComm Technologies said Wednesday said it has agreed to buy another firm to help move music antipiracy efforts to a new level.

    The company has struck an agreement to purchase the United Kingdom-based Darknoise Technologies, which claims to have technology that can guard against people copying CDs in even the most old-fashioned ways.

    Unlike existing CD copy protection, which tries to make CD music files invisible or unreadable to computers and other copiers, Darknoise actually modifies the audio of the songs slightly. If those songs are then copied--even by holding a tape recorder in front of a stereo speaker--the formerly inaudible Darknoise addition becomes audible and makes the copy unlistenable, the company claims.

    "This stuff works," SunnComm Chief Executive Officer Peter Jacobs said. "The science is real. You can't hear it when (a piece of music) is being used properly, and you can do nothing but hear it when a song is copied improperly."

    If the Darknoise technology holds up to continued testing, it could be a substantial development in the ongoing technological arms race between would-be music copiers and record labels eager to reduce or eliminate unauthorized copying.

    SunnComm and rival Macrovision already create technology that interferes with the ability to make identical digital copies of files on a CD or turn them into compressed digital files such as MP3s. However, the anticopying technology has more difficulty with nondigital copies.

    Today, that means that even a protected CD can be copied simply by intercepting the audio signal on the way to the speakers and rerouting it to a recording device. This loophole in digital copy protection is often known as the "analog hole."

    The Darknoise technology is in some ways analogous to the ubiquitous videotape copy protection Macrovision created, which is effectively mandated by copyright law in the United States. In that tool, the video is slightly modified so that anyone trying to make direct VCR-to-VCR copies winds up with unusable copies.

    The company says Darknoise's technology functions no matter how the music file is being copied, however. That ranges from trying to "rip" an MP3 song from a CD to trying to record a song off the radio. Any of those examples, if used on a song with the Darknoise audio technology applied, would result in an unusable copy, the company says.

    Several U.S. record executives said they were not familiar with the technology. Jacobs said he plans to show it later this week to executives at Bertelsmann music unit BMG, which currently uses SunnComm's older copy protection technology.

    BMG's first test of SunnComm's antipiracy tools ran into controversy after a Princeton graduate student showed how to evade them by simply pressing a computer's Shift key. SunnComm threatened to sue the student but later retracted the threat, saying the revelation had been expected and did not undermine the company's technology.

    Read more about how this technology (may) work
    here
    Ethernet (n): something used to catch the etherbunny
    Quote Quote  
  2. pretty good article. this might work short term but there will be something down the road to crack it. if in fact this is true...
    How Big A Boy Are Ya?
    Quote Quote  
  3. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    dFAQ.us/lordsmurf
    Search Comp PM
    Let's all starting holding down keys to see how we can hack this one.
    Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
    FAQs: Best Blank DiscsBest TBCsBest VCRs for captureRestore VHS
    Quote Quote  
  4. Can't you just copy the whoel disc as a regular CD then? The music is just data, and if the data can be copied correctly bit by bit, you would have a backup equal to the original.
    Quote Quote  
  5. Renegade gll99's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Canadian Tundra
    Search Comp PM
    Just don't buy the CD if you don't like the conditions.
    They are counting on the fact that most people don't back up their cds and therefore won't care if it's encrypted or invisibly tampered with in some way. They don't care if they diss the rest of the population because they probably figure that makes up a small part of sales even if we stopped buying completely.

    A worse scenario if this technolgy works is that it would probably be applied to DVD audio tracks which would then render DVD backup useless.

    Also I'm sure they are conducting their tests on grade A equipment in top condition. Can you imagine if somehow cheaper player's pick up this out of phase sound. Will they blame your player or refund your money. Should be interesting to say the least.
    Quote Quote  
  6. Member The village idiot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Adrift among the STUPID
    Search Comp PM
    If a microphone can hear it, so can people, inaudible my ass! It will be a simple matter of returning CD's to the store after you can't stand to listen to the copy protection. After stores refund millions, the copy protection will cease... or the music business will cease!

    I'll go buy these CDs just so I can return them! Or so I can get in on the class action when peolpe can't get their money back, and take RIAA to court!
    Hope is the trap the world sets for you every night when you go to sleep and the only reason you have to get up in the morning is the hope that this day, things will get better... But they never do, do they?
    Quote Quote  
  7. This kind of thing is very, very similar to stuff I was doing in an entirely different context (unrelated to copy protection). I'm willing to bet that I could write a program to remove it or render it ineffective over a weekend. I hope I get a chance -- it sounds like a fun challenge.

    Now that I think of it, the last sentence I wrote really indicates the problem with all copy protection schemes. Each method you think up will present an irresistable challenge to someone, even if they have no interest in breaking the protection per se.

    Some people (like myself) can just never resist a good puzzle.
    Quote Quote  
  8. Member The village idiot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Adrift among the STUPID
    Search Comp PM
    One more thing.... If I can't rip it to mp3 for my portable, then it is completely worthless to me. I run my player about 10 hours everyday while driving to work, during work, and driving home. I also own the more than 100 disks that are stored on that player, but that would certainly end if they go through with this.
    Hope is the trap the world sets for you every night when you go to sleep and the only reason you have to get up in the morning is the hope that this day, things will get better... But they never do, do they?
    Quote Quote  
  9. Member The village idiot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Adrift among the STUPID
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Zal42
    This kind of thing is very, very similar to stuff I was doing in an entirely different context (unrelated to copy protection). I'm willing to bet that I could write a program to remove it or render it ineffective over a weekend. I hope I get a chance -- it sounds like a fun challenge.

    Now that I think of it, the last sentence I wrote really indicates the problem with all copy protection schemes. Each method you think up will present an irresistable challenge to someone, even if they have no interest in breaking the protection per se.

    Some people (like myself) can just never resist a good puzzle.
    More power too you... Keep up that attitude and show those fools why they shouldn't spend the money for new ideas like this.
    Hope is the trap the world sets for you every night when you go to sleep and the only reason you have to get up in the morning is the hope that this day, things will get better... But they never do, do they?
    Quote Quote  
  10. Member jaxxboss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    JAX, FL
    Search Comp PM
    You can't hear it when (a piece of music) is being used properly, and you can do nothing but hear it when a song is copied improperly."
    There is his "OUT". It will be decrypted and life will go on.
    Quote Quote  
  11. Renegade gll99's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Canadian Tundra
    Search Comp PM
    Here's another thought.
    What if they learn to piggy back this "technology" onto a broadcast signal. No more recording of Enterprise or Smallville. Video without audio. Guess I'll have to learn to lip read.
    Quote Quote  
  12. Isn't this like illegal? I mean, aren't you allowed to copy cd's for your own 'private' backup?
    =)
    Quote Quote  
  13. Hum. Intersting concept. And it power by a device that makes it own energy.

    I am not an audio EE but have some work on audio and radar signals generation and measurement. I can see a dozen different ways this can be negated. Sorry guys there is enough tech out there to make this and all of the other mess with analog concept more work than its worth.

    Why dont they figure that price and quality are the best protection they have and these tricks just dont work!

    I have heard of so many crackpot ideas and put this in the same catagory. Look at the self destroying DVD. Looks good on paper and limited trials but failed when it hit the road.
    Quote Quote  
  14. Yes, I Know Roundabout's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    ...in and around the lake
    Search Comp PM
    From the white paper on the Darknoise site:

    DarkNoise Technologies Ltd has a unique patented technology, Q-Spoiler, which
    is robust in its structure and yet simple in its implementation. For example,
    should anyone try to record a Q-Spoiler enabled piece of music , via the Analogue
    Hole, the resulting copy when played will be rendered inaudible - as the recorded
    music will be obscured by the sound of a ringing alarm bell.
    The key feature
    points of Q-Spoiler are:
    · Q-Spoiler plugs the Analogue Hole and prevents analogue recording or
    digital re-sampling, as shown by figures 1 & 2 on page 4.
    · Q-Spoiler also prevents conversion through codecs, e.g. CD to MP3 for P2P
    file swapping. Therefore preventing the creation of MP3 or WAV files that
    can be then loaded to the Internet.
    · It is not computer code, but undetectable embedded sound that is inserted
    at random, with 1 billion combinations that can be changed every second.
    This is analogous to 1024k military encryption. (???-BS)
    · It is embedded in the original audio file and is NOT driven by instructions
    contained within the table of contents found on a music CD.
    · It is quick and cheap to implement, as it does not require expensive
    infrastructure or a client-side application to run.
    · It cannot be filtered out as this will damage the original music. It is part of
    the original music track and any attempt to remove part of the Q-Spoiler
    will obviously remove the music as well.
    · It compliments existing DRM

    I don't know about you guys, but I find this a little hard to believe. The sound of a "ringing alarm bell"? I don't think so. Methinks there's a little exaggeration going on here. If the "code" is inaudible, then I don't see how an analog system will be able to reproduce it, typically the cutoff freq. is around 15 ~ 16Khz. For it to be "inaudible", it would need to be above that frequency. And if it's above that frequency, the analog audio system won't record it. I need to do a little more reading about this tomorrow, it's an interesting idea that most likely will be broken by something simple that they didn't think of, just like the shift key fiasco.
    Ethernet (n): something used to catch the etherbunny
    Quote Quote  
  15. Originally Posted by sublime053
    Isn't this like illegal? I mean, aren't you allowed to copy cd's for your own 'private' backup?
    Yes, you're allowed to backup, but content producers are not required to ensure that it's possible for you to do so.

    Originally Posted by Roundabout
    I don't know about you guys, but I find this a little hard to believe. The sound of a "ringing alarm bell"? I don't think so. Methinks there's a little exaggeration going on here.
    Yeah, that caught my eye, too. If they're doing what it sounds like they're doing (taking the white paper at face value), then the "alarm bell" description is simply marketing glitz used to describe one of the primary masking audio effects this would generate: A beat frequency, with a very fast beat. You could reasonably describe it as an alarm bell, although I'd put my money down that it sounds more like a digital alarm clock.

    Originally Posted by Roundabout
    For it to be "inaudible", it would need to be above that frequency.
    Not strictly true. What they're describing is some tricky playing around with the phases of the waveforms. You can render a sound completely inaudible by playing the phase-inverted version of the same sound at the same time.

    I'm guessing (well, not guessing -- what they say) that what they're doing taking advantage of the fact that amplifiers usually make a royal mess of the phase of waveforms, which would eliminate this built-in cancellation when played through an amp. I don't see how this scheme would affect digital copying, but I could see how it could affect compression schemes such as MP3.

    What the paper describes is feasible (making allowances for the exaggerations of marketing. For instance, it's unlikely to work properly on all equipment), and given ideal equipment, it would be inaudible to even "golden ears." In practice, as gli99 points out, the equipment itself will introduce error, so the effect would probably be audible to golden ears, and might be audible to ordinary people.

    Their claims the it can't be filtered out is marketing BS, though. What they probably mean is that it can't be filtered out using your standard notch/bandpass filters. It would take a specialty filter.
    Quote Quote  
  16. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Americas
    Search Comp PM
    Sometimes most elaborate schemes have a very trivial method of defeating it (like the Shift key...). I wonder if this one will fall into same category... If not, some, like Zal42 may pick up the challenge. Time will tell.
    Quote Quote  
  17. So all this is is just an out of phase signal combined with the original audio? That's very easy to defeat, especially in the digital domain.
    Quote Quote  
  18. I also own the more than 100 disks that are stored on that player, but that would certainly end if they go through with this.
    You mean they will come round and re-possess all of your Cd's??
    Corned beef is now made to a higher standard than at any time in history.
    The electronic components of the power part adopted a lot of Rubycons.
    Quote Quote  
  19. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Uranus
    Search Comp PM
    I'll go on record to say that if I have an analog waveform
    coming out of my speakers, I can reproduce it exactly
    If it sounded OK before , they copy will too.
    this thing is utter bullshit

    An analog waveform travelling through amplifiers , wires , speakers ,etc
    is being copied from one place to another
    Quote Quote  
  20. Member lacywest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    California
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by gll99
    Here's another thought.
    What if they learn to piggy back this "technology" onto a broadcast signal. No more recording of Enterprise or Smallville. Video without audio. Guess I'll have to learn to lip read.
    Alright !!!!! ... Somebody just like me.

    In my area ... both shows come on same time ... different channels ... oh what a pain in the butt ... recording them.
    Quote Quote  
  21. Member lacywest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    California
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by proxyx99
    Sometimes most elaborate schemes have a very trivial method of defeating it (like the Shift key...). I wonder if this one will fall into same category... If not, some, like Zal42 may pick up the challenge. Time will tell.
    You watch ... it will be a homework assignment ... at some state college computer language writing class. Break the code and your guaranteed to get an A for the semester.
    Quote Quote  
  22. Anything nonmusical (no rap jokes, please) in the audible range is a call to arms for the audiophiles. They were trying to put a "copy flag" in the audible range way back when. IIRC, they would suck out a narrow band around 250Hz, and if any DAT machines (these were the big scare for the RIAA back then; oh, if they only knew...) detected signal there, it would refuse to record.

    They claimed it was inaudible. I guess RIAA guys have REALLY tin ears (no great surprise, given the crap they release these days), because plenty of people COULD hear it. It didn't go through. As I suspect this one won't either. And if it does, we have tons of hackers, as mentioned above.
    Quote Quote  
  23. This copy-protection sounds like Macrovision for audio.I agree with Roundabout once someone finds the freq. that this "inaudable" sound is at you could insert an equal freq. similar to Noise Canceling.
    They are already adding this copy-protection to WMA,MP3 and AAC songs that you download legally,I haven't noticed any "alarm bells" when I recorded them to analog...hypothectically speaking of course.
    Quote Quote  
  24. Член BJ_M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Canada
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by gll99
    Here's another thought. :shock:
    What if they learn to piggy back this "technology" onto a broadcast signal. No more recording of Enterprise or Smallville. Video without audio. Guess I'll have to learn to lip read. :-x
    not withstanding the fact this whole thing sounds to crackpot to be true ....

    in the last year or so - i really can't stand listening to FM on many stations because the sideband digital broadcast is leaking into the Analogue
    "Each problem that I solved became a rule which served afterwards to solve other problems." - Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
    Quote Quote  
  25. this is funny on so many levels, lmao
    Quote Quote  
  26. I have red all the above but what im not understanding is if you can play it why cant you just put a microphone up to the speaker and record the song back onto a tape


    anyone no the answer to this?
    Quote Quote  
  27. Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    there is a hidden "inaudible" frequency which causes a resonance when recorded or duplicated.
    Quote Quote  
  28. I forgot to mention in my first post that I recently bought a Toshiba DVD player so I could listen to legally downloaded WMA9(encrypted) songs...well guess what?...it doesn't play encrypted songs!
    If I don't change formats how in the hell am I supposed to listen to the songs other than my PC?The RIAA and music industry assume everybody is going to upload and share their songs...guilty until proven innocent is their motto.
    Quote Quote  
  29. Thanks drewson99




    Well if this really works then that’s it for most of us. No more backing up DVD'S CD'S and no more making that copy for the car when you can leave the original at home safe its all going to go

    Quote Quote  
  30. *shrug*

    Someone said "Just dont buy it if you dont agree to it", thats the bottom line I guess. Suncomm is a ridiculous group trying to reinvent the wheel, and look foolish doing it. The shift key blunder was just one of their mishaps..There will be more in the future.

    We have the right to make a legitimate backup of our music, anyone who tries to say otherwise and throw "copy protection" into my face, calling me a criminal is just asking to be made an example of. As if I didn't buy any music before, I definetely would never consider purchasing anything produced by suncomm's scheme. Groups are spending Billions wasting their time trying to fight piracy when they should be trying to work With the tide instead of against it, hence 'barking up the wrong tree'. There is currently nothing that will stop me from copying anything. DVDs, cds, games, movies...And all I hear about is "breakthru technology: Piracy is OVER!!" yet, where is it all going? In circles, man...Over and over.

    Im sure you all would agree with me when I say it is a bigger loss to try fighting it then to examine the current technology and try to work with it, Earning your customers back instead of angering them further. One example Id like to point out: remember the madonna thing? When she personally had fake files of her new cd put on the net? Well, out of spite I went and downloaded the full (verified) cd, never listened to it even once. That's the kind of attitude a lot of people are taking, that should scare them even more then a few college kids swaping their latest cds they bought.
    Quote Quote  



Similar Threads