Frustrating time with Toast 6

[DeadLily]

After all the positive buzz with Toast 6, I'm surprised that I haven't made one good disc with it yet. I'm trying to perform a simple 90-second test from a DV.mov exported from FCP3. The sequence is good and runs fine in Quicktime, which according to the docs, is Toast's prerequisite for burning anything. Here's what I'm encountering:

DVD test - The DVD encoder added about a dozen or so random white blocks into the picture. I burned 2 DVDs, and the blocks always occur in the same places. The blocks are not in the original material, so I'm assuming they are encoding artifacts.

The sound came through great, though.

VCD test - Picture looks good, but the sound is terrible. Remember when you were a kid, and the sound you'd hear when you clapped your hands over your ears really fast? Imagine that speeded up about fifty times. As though only bits of the sound are being encoded. It does all manage to stay in sync. I've tried this three ways, one with the original DV sequence, one with the m1v file and a separate wav file, and one with the m1v file and an mp2 file. I get the same results each time, even though all of these files play perfectly in Quicktime.

Are Toast's file requirements more restrictive than they're letting on? I'm open to suggestions.

I'm using Quicktime 6.4, Toast 6 Titanium 6.0.3, OS 10.2.8, iMac G3, and a Pioneer A06, firmwave 1.07/MMC-3.

[Frobozz]

This is strange. Rather than burn the DVD and VCD try saving them as a disc image (Toast File menu). Then mount the disc images to play the DVD and VCD to see if the problems show there. You'll then know if the problem is happening in the encoding stage. You also might check the Toast 6 discussion forum at Roxio's web site.

I presume you tried your test discs on different players.

[terryj]

Try exporting out of FCP your sequence as FCP movie.
Open the resulting movie file in QT and play.
Since the file will be mixed down to the lowest
Toast compatible-QT acceptable format,
you will have eliminated one step of the process
that Toast 6 goes through in encoding the file.

Check your "Roxio Converted Items" folder if you don't believe me...
Any file that isn't completetely Toast-QT compatible gets ripped and remixed down to QT compatability first, then gets moved to MPEG status.
I've seen this happen with .avi, .m2v files, and some flavors of xvid...
Toast usually spends mucho time demuxing/fixing the file back to
a low compatability, then encodes it to proper MPEG status.
This can and does often hose the files in most cases.

Save yourself some headaches and encoding time by mixing down
yourself to QT movie status, then pop it into Toast to go straight to
MPEG flavor. I usually use the 3ivx codec, average bitrate, single pass,
29fps, Best quality, 44.1khz sound, 16 sample size, 2 channel uncompressed in QT, then I drop these into Toast 6, VCD or DVD, and
my files come out great, with minimal setup and encoding time.

[DeadLily]

Thanks for your help, though I'm a tad confused. First you say

Try exporting out of FCP your sequence as FCP movie.

and later you say

Save yourself some headaches and encoding time by mixing down yourself to QT movie status

Exporting from FCP3 as either an FCP movie or a QT movie are two completely separate options. The only files that I've been feeding to Toast *were* QT files which did play just fine, yet Toast is adding block pixels to them anyway.

I usually use the 3ivx codec, average bitrate, single pass, 29fps, Best quality, 44.1khz sound, 16 sample size, 2 channel uncompressed in QT

If I try to export from FCP3 as an FCP file, I do not get any of these options.

If I try to export from FCP3 as a QT file, I get most of those options, *except* the 3ivx codec. I've tried DV and video, with no difference.

If you meant that I should be exporting *from Quicktime*, my Quicktime (6.4) offers no export or save options. Is this a Quicktime Pro feature?

[terryj]

Thanks for your help, though I'm a tad confused.

Exporting from FCP3 as either an FCP movie or a QT movie are two completely separate options. The only files that I've been feeding to Toast *were* QT files which did play just fine, yet Toast is adding block pixels to them anyway.

I'm sorry..I'm so used to FCP4, which is the only version
I've ever used, and thought this was an option for all
versions of FCP. In FCP4, you can go File-->Export-->As FCP movie,
and it exports the file using your pre-determined options you set
for FCP movie, which is usually uncompressed, 29fps, 740 x 480 NTSC,
with ACC audio.

I usually use the 3ivx codec, average bitrate, single pass, 29fps, Best quality, 44.1khz sound, 16 sample size, 2 channel uncompressed in QT

If I try to export from FCP3 as an FCP file, I do not get any of these options.

If I try to export from FCP3 as a QT file, I get most of those options, *except* the 3ivx codec. I've tried DV and video, with no difference.

Again, sorry. You will need to get the 3ivx v.4.51 codec from http:www.3ivx.com. most of us are already aware
of this codec, because you need it to use the excellent
DIVX DOCTOR II, also made by 3ivx. DV and VIDEO export
will not get you any better options as far as Toast goes,
because it will still have to "fix" the file by re-encoding it to
its lowest common factor first, than export out to
the flavor of MPEG you need.

If you meant that I should be exporting *from Quicktime*, my Quicktime (6.4) offers no export or save options. Is this a Quicktime Pro feature?

Again, sorry, yes the export features are part of QT Pro.
Did you not recieve a QT Pro SN with your copy of FCP?
I did with my copy of FCP4. Without it, you will be at a
slight disadvantage to use the steps I have given you.

To get these to work:

You will need to be in OSX 10.23 or later ( you are OS X, right?)
You will need the 3ivx codec from www.3ivx.com
You will need QT Pro6 serial number to "unlock" your QT into Pro mode.
You will need the Toast Video CD plug-in which came with Toast 6.

Once you have these parts, then you need to export from your
version of FCP to Quicktime Movie format, using the settings
for the 3ivx codec above. ( in FCP4, you can do this direct
to FCP movie, using the same settings.)
Open the exported file in QT PRO, and view that everything is intact,
and that audio and video is ok.
Then, if so, go File-->Export-->Quicktime to Toast Video CD.
Choose "options", and select Fit, 29fps, Normal or Best Quality.
( Best will take a little longer, depending on the length of the file).
Encode the file. when it is done, play it back in QT PRO,
make sure it is intact. if ok, drag and drop the file into Toast6,
under your choice in the video options tab ( Video CD, DVD)
and burn.

[DeadLily]

I'm tracking with you on all of this, except for one thing....

You will need the Toast Video CD plug-in which came with Toast 6.

My Toast 6 Titanium 6.0.3 CD does not have anything resembling a Toast Video CD plug-in. All it has are the applications, which, when run, install everything needed.

Now there is an item in Preferences to "Install ToastIt Contextual Menu Plugin" (which I did), but it doesn't seem to relate to this:

Then, if so, go File-->Export-->Quicktime to Toast Video CD.

My QT Pro (acquired tonight) did not offer this option. Are you sure that plugin came with Toast 6? I've taken care of everything else on your list, but this last item I don't seem to have.

Since I'm trying to make a glitch-free DVD, a Video CD option doesn't sound like something I want anway.

[Frobozz]

I'm confused, too. If you are trying to get Toast 6 to author and burn a DVD from a Final Cut movie you simply drag the Final Cut project file into the Toast video window. Choose standard quality (especially with a G3). You can change the name of the disc from My DVD if you like. The edit tab allows you to make some other small changes.

Toast 6 does not have the QT export anymore because it isn't needed. Instead, you just drag the project file into Toast.

Your original complaint that the authoring added white specks or caused sound distortion is difficult to diagnose. I'd be certain to have nothing else going on with a G3 Mac (such as file sharing) while Toast is doing the encoding.

[terryj]

The Toast Video CD export Plug-in (MPEG-1) came with Toast Titaninum 5, 5.14, 5.21. Toast 6 incorporated the "behind the scenes"
all-in one option to do so, even though I have had mixed
results with Toast 6 doing what it is supposed to do, which
is why I use the QT PRo-->Export to Toast Video CD plug-in option.
I was hoping you had upgraded from a previous version( TT50
to TT6.03, but I'm guessing you bought TT6.03 retail, and thus
do not have the legacy plugins.

For the purposes of our testing the plug-in would be important
to make sure you can export your file into a "Toast Compatible"
format. Aside from using this, there really is no other option.
You have already tested DV, Video, and QT Movie.
Without a higher end program such as Compressor, or Sorensen Squeeze, there isn't much else that can master it down to
be 100% Toast compatible. If you use ffmpegx, Toast
will still try to re-encode the file ( possibly due to the way ffmpegx
does its audio). Since we are trying to do a complete 100% file that
Toast doesn't have to re-encode, ( and from experience, Toast 6 will
bypass a Toast Video MPEG-1 file and just create your finished output
without re-encoding it), without that, I'm at a loss.

And without Compressor, you won't have any export options out of QT
other than MPEG-4, .mov, .dv, or .avi, and flavors for audio ( mp3, aac,
aiff).

Let's go back to QT:
Open you DV file and play it, making sure no artifacting or or absence of
audio appers randonmly throughout, especially the spot you say it occurs
in Toast.

If all is well, export out of QT PRO first as Quicktime to Quicktime Movie,
and choose the base ( generic settings) under options,
such as Video, Best (high)quality, 24fps, and audio as "Uncompressed, 16bit, 44.100 khz, stero 2 channel". Then go back to your DV file,
and Export it a second time as Quicktime to Quicktime movie,
but under options, select "3ivx, Best Quality, Average bitrate, 29fps",
and audio as "Uncompressed, 16bit, 44.100 khz, stero 2 channel".

Now play each file, and report back on quality, noticable drop outs,
etc. I'm betting the 3ivx file will be best, and that is the one
we will probably try to master again through Toast 6.

[DeadLily]

I'm confused, too. If you are trying to get Toast 6 to author and burn a DVD from a Final Cut movie you simply drag the Final Cut project file into the Toast video window. Choose standard quality (especially with a G3). You can change the name of the disc from My DVD if you like. The edit tab allows you to make some other small changes.

An FCP project file, which contains all the clip info and potentially several sequences, does not drag into Toast. Toast does not recognize it. An FCP sequence does not appear to be drag-able out of FCP. The only way to use an FCP sequence outside of FCP (as far as I’m aware) is to export it to another format (namely Quicktime).

I'm curious why you're wary of the G3. Roxio lists the G3 as the minimum requirement, and makes no mention that the High setting should pose a problem to low end computers. Heck, they even seem to recommend the High setting for better results.

If all is well, export out of QT PRO first as Quicktime to Quicktime Movie,
and choose the base ( generic settings) under options,
such as Video, Best (high)quality, 24fps, and audio as "Uncompressed, 16bit, 44.100 khz, stero 2 channel". Then go back to your DV file,
and Export it a second time as Quicktime to Quicktime movie,
but under options, select "3ivx, Best Quality, Average bitrate, 29fps",
and audio as "Uncompressed, 16bit, 44.100 khz, stero 2 channel".

Since the source was 29.97, the 24 test came out with all manner of bizarre artifacts. So I made the same test at 29.97. Unfortunately, of these 3 examples, none of them were without glitches. The Video-24 was seriously degraded. The Video-29.97 had similar glitches from previously, except that they now appeared in new places. The 3ivx had whitish blocks also, and they tended to clump together inside bright solid white areas. But the 3ivx also had a large drop in resolution that made me cringe. I felt like I was watching the sequence through frosted glass. These were all visible in Quicktime, and likewise when I did a test burn or those three examples.

Ok, here’s the part where you’re all gonna groan. I went back to my original DV sequence and burned a DVD, but this time set at Standard instead of High. It came out beautiful, glitch-free, looking exactly like the source. I’m still wary because I know someday I’m going to want that High setting. But for now I’m glad to finally burn one perfect DVD.

The same test did not make any difference when burning a VCD however. I'm still getting crappy sound when played back on two different DVD players. The sound source was a CD aiff track that I converted to 48 Mhz through iTunes (because FCP prefers 48 Mhz). I've tried just about everything I can think of. I've converted it back to 44.1, converted it to a wav, an mp2, and an mp3. Every time I burn the result, it sounds the same. I test them all through Quicktime first, and they all play great there.

[Frobozz]

Oops. My mistake about dragging the FCP project file to Toast. Terryj is correct that you export to FCP Movie. It is that resulting file that can be dragged to the Toast Video tab. Terryj is clearly much more knowledgeable about this than am I.

Toast's high-quality setting reportedly is supposed to improve somewhat the quality of videos with lots of motion. However, there are quite a number of complaints in the Toast forum about the video looking worse than the standard mode. You have the same experience. While reading up on this I also learned that Compressor and BitVice do higher-quality MPEG2 encoding than does Toast.

My remarks about using a G3 are in reference to how hard the processor has to work to encode video. It's just easier for it to encode at the standard setting rather than high and not to be doing other tasks at the same time. My sense is that should reduce the chance of encoding errors.

Regarding the VCD audio problem, have you tried playing the VCD on the Mac using VLC player? This will confirm that the audio problem is on the disc and not with how the DVD players are handling the audio. I learned on this site recently that I needed to change my DVD Player's audio setup to convert MPEG to PCM. It's a longshot but maybe it's how the players are set up and not the VCD that is causing the sound playback problem.

[terryj]

Ok, here’s the part where you’re all gonna groan.
I went back to my original DV sequence and burned a DVD, but
this time set at Standard instead of High. It came out beautiful,
glitch-free, looking exactly like the source. I’m still wary because
I know someday I’m going to want that High setting.
But for now I’m glad to finally burn one perfect DVD.

Ok, now everything falls into place.
On a G3, the encoding process at High Quality is too much
for a G3 processor, even say, an iBook G3 900, which I have
seen have problems trying to encode FCP projects to iDVD
in HQ mode. Didn't think about that, I had assumed you
were using the standard setting on your orignal encodings
to DVD-R.

For what its worth, I have only seen dual G4s and the G5 we have here
at work produce great HQ DVDs ( using Compressor to encode).
A test I did in HQ setting on a Dual 800 QS caused some artifacting
at the end of the DVD. So when you get ready to start making HQ DVDs,
seriously consider upgrading the desktop machine.

My remarks about using a G3 are in reference to how hard the processor has to work to encode video. It's just easier for it to encode at the standard setting rather than high and not to be doing other tasks at the same time. My sense is that should reduce the chance of encoding errors.

Frobozz hit it on the head. Yes the BARE minimum FCP3 will run is on
a G3, but consider this one of the ( under the hood glitches) "mfg. specified requirements for hardware and setup" would have taken care
of, if you had followed those, and not the bare minimum requirements,
on machine and setup. Not knocking your setup, I'm just pointing out
why Apple lists on the box two sets of requirements, the bare minimum,
and the mfg. reccommended requirements. Because they are basically telling you, "we found a bunch of errors if you use bare min., so
you should use these instead."
:P

Regarding the VCD audio problem, have you tried playing the VCD on the Mac using VLC player? This will confirm that the audio problem is on the disc and not with how the DVD players are handling the audio. I learned on this site recently that I needed to change my DVD Player's audio setup to convert MPEG to PCM. It's a longshot but maybe it's how the players are set up and not the VCD that is causing the sound playback problem.

Yes, play it in VLC and post back. Frobozz is correct...check your model
of set tops in the "DVD Players" link at left. Possibly someone else
has encountered the same problem. Also, if you have access to
another player, or can take it to a Circuit City, test the VCD on any APEX
DVD Player and tell us what happens. APEX machines, although cheap
as can be, are good workhorse players. My next DVD player might be
an Apex...
[/quote]

[dcsos]

note APEX has removed VCD support from current models instead try a CYBERHOME (a company who never released a machine without vcd support)

test the VCD on any APEX
DVD Player and tell us what happens. APEX machines, although cheap
as can be, are good workhorse players. My next DVD player might be
an Apex...

i have an apex 1500 the last player they made with vcd feature

[terryj]

dcsos,
that is disenheartning to hear....

Guess I'll have to hit up the Pawn shops then!
My brother owns an APEX-1500 like you,
and it's pretty rock solid. It blows my RCA 5240
away on cheap, cheap media.

[DeadLily]

Yes, play it in VLC and post back. Frobozz is correct...check your model
of set tops in the "DVD Players" link at left. Possibly someone else
has encountered the same problem. Also, if you have access to
another player, or can take it to a Circuit City, test the VCD on any APEX
DVD Player and tell us what happens. APEX machines, although cheap
as can be, are good workhorse players. My next DVD player might be
an Apex...

Sorry for the delay...

The bummer is that yes, VLC does play the VCD sound just fine, but neither of my two DVD players will play the sound properly. And oddly, one of them is an Apex 1500. So while I seem to be able to make good VCDs, I have no way to enjoy them. Oh well.

I have to say thanks for all the help I've gotten in this forum. This is probably the most helpful board that I've come across in solving these types of problems.